ST Adam Driver (Kylo Ren) in the ST

@anakinfansince1983 , has your irritation from Kylo Ren been the same from TFA through TLJ? If not, what made him more irritating to you in TLJ than TFA?

Similarly, between ANH & TESB, as Vader is involved with torturing Leia, delivering Han into a situation where he could have been killed, being part of the faction that killed Leia’s family and all of the people of Alderaan, killing Obi-Wan, cutting off Luke’s arm, and basically calling Obi-Wan a liar through two films, what made you sympathize with him and/or believe him prior to ROTJ?

As for antagonism... there definitely seems to be a shift between the physically imposing and domineering male antagonists of the 1980s (Vader, The Terminator, Darryl Revok, Jason, General Zod, Michael Myers, were seemingly meant to fear from either some overwhelming and unrelenting strength/power/drive and the more emotionally charged antagonists of the present that have been crafted to seem more like kids who might have been picked on, who feel like the black sheep in their families, and who perhaps at a young age didn’t get some of their issues resolved and hit some kind of turning point that brought out the worst in them and whose villainy tends to be more opportunistic, maniputive, deceitful and capable of sneaking up on an unsuspecting target at any time due to their willingness to take on tremendous risk to themselves in order to get whatever it is they ultimately want. There are a lot more antagonists written this way lately and as someone that’s nearly 40 myself I find that I like aspects of both. And to be clear I do think there were some of these types written in the 1980s and that there are some physically domineering villains reminiscent of the 1980s that audiences love to hate today (Antoine from No Country for Old Men is very Vader/Terminator-like for example). There’s definitely a difference in fearing and almost admiring the physicality of those 1980s monster villains who kept coming and the irritation of some of these nerds turned villain creations of the moment but for me the new admiration for them comes more from their opportunism and the fear comes more from knowing that they are not always how they appear and capable of surprise. Kylo Ren combines some of the power and physicality of the past with some of this new school black sheep nerd in school is now a villain antagonism and the mix of the two is compelling for me because I can see where his parents efforts to raise him better than this and have morality remain within his core and I can imagine how Snoke has convinced him that’s all programmed weakness and the same thing that held his grandfather back from greatness and now that I see he has met someone far better than him who he obviously admires on some level I’m fascinating in seeing if he realizes that the programming and propaganda he bought into from Snoke was the real lie and has become his real weakness or not.

@godisawesome , have you ever read my list of possible reasons for why Rey goes to the Supremacy? Might be a better starting point for what we were discussing in the other thread.

 

I don't think there is, or really will be some amazing excuse for his behavior. Just as there wasn't really for Vader's. At a certain point they are both making choices as adults. We might get some more clues toward what ultimately lead up to his choices in time the same way we did Anakin but given the acts that have occurred I don't think it will be easy for many to excuse his actions any more than it was Vader's.

This discussion touches on one of the most fascinating and important aspects of A Clockwork Orange actually. A movie that I remember you mentioning turning off actually now that I think of it. When it comes to concepts of crime and punishment I'm fascinated by the following ideas:

1) If a person can change and does do better from that point on into the future how long should they be punished? It's a question that varies from individual to individual.

2) At what point do we, as people, with our vengeance, become twisted by it and more evil by our hunger for punishment and bloodlust with eye for an eye thinking? A great Netflix movie, and one of the more underrated low-budget films of the past 5 years for me, was Blue Ruin which I felt really zeroed in on this amazingly. Probably plays better for me though since I find this concept interesting. It's the same reason I found A Clockwork Orange interesting.

I think they have given us more reasons to suspect Ben Solo might return than they ever did Vader but I also think that this could end up functioning in the reverse in a way to make him a more hated villain if he stays this way. You, for example, really seem to dislike how he shows conflict within and then still goes through with awful acts. I can understand how this would be bothersome and a part of me genuinely wonders if the ST may end up being almost an allegory for addicted/troubled young men that many of think can do better but really can't who get too many second chances from people to the detriment of others. If it ends up going that route it would be a very bleak final statement on the Skywalker bloodline and a true subversion of the expectations many have for redemption, likely culminating with almost an old yeller-like (ROTS had this too with Obi-Wan to Anakin to be fair) moment of Rey not wanting to end him but knowing it must be done. So, through 2 films I think liking him, hating him, wanting him dead, wanting him redeemed, loathing his internal conflict, or finding it fascinating can all work so far through 2 films but it's all going to come down to IX and what they ultimately decide to do with him. He either reaches new lows/heights (depending on perspective) as the Renperor or he finds a way back somehow. If he stays evil then everything you hate about him at present can still work and if he comes back then everything i'm interested by can still work. That's kind of the magic of him as a character at present.

 

I don’t see Kylo Ren as a victim of bullying…? Is he supposed to be? If he is, I surely missed that. Or even a victim of bad parenting for that matter.

And while I appreciate that Kylo Ren is a different type of villiain than Vader, I don’t think listing historical examples is going to change anyone’s feelings for this character. By that token, Loki was a “Kylo Ren” before Kylo, and he came out as not only extremely well-received, but also, imo, pulled off the whole woobie factor much better. That guy was “annoying” in very entertaining, charismatic and even sympathetic way. Kylo is just annoying. With very little charisma or sympathetic traits. At least for me.

Also, I feel the need to say this, but Vader himself was a unique villain in his time. People understate its impact in the audience. As someone born in the second half of the 80s decade whose earlier childhood memories belong to the 90s, and was exposed to a lot of 90s, 80s and 70s movies via TV and VHS rentals, I think I went through enough of a bombardment of “masculine” or gung-ho villains throughout my entire childhood, but no one made an impact on me in the same level as Vader did (expect the Aliens I guess, though they were not human, and the Queen Alien was the one that made the biggest impression anyway). It wasn’t just his domineering presence, it was also his atypical well-mannered and charismatic behavior and one-liners that I believe did more to contribute to his “cool” factor that at a lot young boys (and young girls like myself) wanted to emulate. Seriously, Vader never lost his “cool” (unlike, uh, most of villains). The only time he did was when he was conflicted for his son, and that only further raised points in sympathy.

 

@La Calavera , I don't know if he was bullied or not but I was saying that the way he plays Ben Solo comes off a little like someone who might have been and knowing what we know of Snoke it's entirely possible that was a big part of the training. Driver's "Matt" sketch on SNL showed the hand a little and it's now one of two things for me. He either grew up like that kid in school who nobody talked to, who didn't fit in within any one group, who got bullied now and then, who didn't have strong social skills or a sense of humor to charm others, and all of that was then pounced on by Snoke and added to... Or, he was a little warmer and Snoke has been slowly working him the way Terrorists do recruits where they try to convince them that empathy is weakness that will get them killed and hold back their potential.

If it's the former then Rey is perhaps the first person he's admired who has shown him some compassion and interest back. This can now go one of two ways and IX will decide all of it. He either takes her rejection horribly and embraces basically an incel-like philosophy where he can't understand how she could reject him, takes it all very personally, and seeks to hurt her and her friends purposefully out of anger and revenge. His final statements to Luke suggest things could be headed this way and I think that's why a lot of people -- especially anyone who really saw the interrogation scene as akin to sexual assault -- absolutely loathe him right now. If he does do that then their instincts and predictions will be more than justified and he will truly become a brand new creepy villain for this era of the world and some kind of venn diagram villain between Anakin at the end of ROTS and Incel/white terrorist. If he becomes that then only death awaits him and I will be right there alongside all of you who've hated him this whole time. He will become a truly creepy villain in that case for most. Almost like Killgrave (not to be confused with Black Panther's Killmonger) was in Jessica Jones, who for my money, is one of the most twisted and incredible villains in film/TV of the past 5 years or so.

However, it remains possible that what he said to Luke was merely him talking tough and that it is about as representative of what's to come as Vader's threat of turning Leia was. If, instead of the above, his grinch-like heart grow a few sizes larger being away from Rey and being rejected by her, to the extent where others (potentially a returning Knights of Ren faction) think he's grown soft and weak and challenge him and oust him early into IX and he works indirectly with the Resistance to try and get back at the FO alongside Rey/The Resistance (but more separated and not truly a part of them) and along the way realizes that his moment where he told Rey, "You're not alone" and the moment he took his trigger off the button versus his mother and the moment where he perhaps truly considered not killing his father and leaving is the person he needed to be, could be more of, and should be more like. If Rey's presence makes him feel alive where he was previously dead inside prior to meeting her and being away from her and realizing how close he was to actually having someone as beautiful and caring and powerful as her care about him by opening his heart a little ("You're not alone...") leading him to want to become a better person and this ends up being more of a Beauty and the Beast scenario (For lack of a better analogy) and he's ousted by Hux and the returning KOR and we see him slowly starting to show new characteristics of warmth, compassion, and *ghasp* a sense of humor reminiscent of his father (in short functioning like a reverse of the Anakin arc which pushed him over the edge by his love of Padme) then that will be fascinating to watch if it's pulled off well and Driver has the charm to do that. If it goes that route then I think his role on Girls partially was the inspiration for it because on Girls he slowly becomes a better, less selfish, and more caring person too and this would be that with his low points ramped up to sociopathic levels.

Only IX will tell but for me it goes one of those two ways exclusively.

 

The Grinch was not involved with a genocide, and didn’t murder or torture anyone. Bad enough you equate Kylo to Han but I’m sorry, please do not insult the Grinch. The Grinch also is responsible for his own redemption. He himself realizes that Christmas doesn’t come from a store. He doesn’t have anyone’s love - he realizes it through the actions of the Whos

 

How dare you forget?



I’m kidding of course. I realize you’re citing the original source.

Side note: Ron Howard movie!

 

So in the movie, the Grinch has a woman who makes him realize....oh thank the Maker I never saw it!

 

Thank you for provoking a realization in me that should have been obvious: Kylo lacks any sort of redeeming personality. There's nothing about him that would attract friendship or stir amusement or joy in another. Though I'm not actually a fan of Loki at all, I don't really care for him, to compare him to Kylo makes Kylo's utter lack of joy, felt by himself or provoked in the audience, all the more obvious. I used to say the same about Anakin Skywalker, but compared to Kylo, Anakin could almost be called a good humored good sport.

It seems the main way in which Driver portrays Kylo is to just stare and brood, eyes teary and blank, lips thrust forward pouting. TLJ features this over and over and over. Imagine if instead of the one scene of Anakin crying on Mustafar, there were at least half a dozen of those scenes of the single tear falling from Anakin's face. I think Driver and Co need a new method of portraying Kylo.

 

Popular US comedian Tiffany Haddish starts feeling her own strong connection to Ben Solo & Rey isn’t having any of that!

 

I refuse to refer to Kylo as “Ben Solo” (except, ofc, when talking about pre-fall or post-redemption) because the very basis for a character being redeemable is that what horrible persona we’ve seen is not representative of who they truly are.

For me, referring to who we saw in TFA and TLJ as “Ben Solo” would be to say, Yes, Ben Solo commits attrocities and thinks what he’s doing is right.

I don’t know who “Ben Solo” really is yet. I give him every benefit of the doubt, especially since he’s Han and Leia’s son. But while I firmly believe that deep down he’s a good person, to me, at least, this hasn’t yet been confirmed onscreen.

 

"Kylo is just annoying. With very little charisma or sympathetic traits." That hits the nail on the head for me. I don't even really care which way he goes. And that is not good as a SW fan.

 

I hope the rumor is true and he will be bald in episode IX. It will be the most funny "easter egg" hunt of all time.

 

If I never hear the work "inversion" again in my life I would be perfectly okay with that.

 

Reminds me of this scene only with Kylo pulling off his mask again


Only we see Kylo Ren in a mask again, the Resistance trembles in fear.
"Ren's alive! This can't be happening!"

*reaches for mask* "Then I bet you weren't expecting THIS"

 

I, uh... Think I'll pass.

 

Imagine in their final confrontation, Rey stares him down and goes, "Take off that mask!"

"No. My mask is a symbol for who I am!" *leans in* "And uh, between you and me. My hair is thinning a bit."

And then Rey smiles like, "Oh your highness I'm sure it's not that ba-ALD. BALD! BALD! BALD!"

Man I can think of a lot of old cartoon movie references for this for some reason. I should stop before it gets out of hand...and people begin to fear my power. That's the real reason Luke contemplated killing Ben. To avoid the horrible future of him losing his hair. But it's too late now...

 

It's Maverick filmmaking.

 

OMG he looks like Mr. Evil

What about Warwick Davis as Mini me?

 

Ok with Kylo.

He can't be redeemed. He has had to chances now.

I think he works as a villain but only if he is further developed as the pathetic creature he is.

They should try to play on the Incel, school shooter vibe he has going.

And rather then meet the typical spectacular villain death he needs to die in a pathetic and weak manner.

 

I'm going to shift this here. A lightsaber/dueling thread would be better, but I don't think there is a current one.

The fights are choreographed but the actors have to physically perform it. There's a clear difference between someone like Ray Park performing choreography and someone like Christopher Lee, who couldn't really do it because he was just too old and slow and needed a stunt double.

It makes sense to criticize the actor's physical performance if I thought it was poor, which I do in the case of Driver.

I'm not fully buying the "style" argument. Clearly there's a certain style in mind, but I think Driver performs it very poorly.

Saying Driver is slow and stiff and clumsy, which I think he is, is not insulting him any more than it would be insulting to say that Lee was too slow, which Lee himself admitted.

And I do disagree with the stylistic choice, on top. Slow and stiff doesn't portray powerful to me. Power is essentially the product of speed x strength. Speed is equally important as strength when it comes to producing power. Anakin's style was supposed to be similarly powerful in ROTS to evoke Vader, but Hayden performed it with far more speed and coordination than Driver, and even Hayden's stiffer movements are more functional. Hayden's superior performance was probably because he worked so hard and spent so much time on it. He was probably a better athlete than Driver, too. Hayden's shirtless scene revealed a smaller, leaner and more balanced physique, while Driver's was bulkier and showed a grossly overdeveloped chest that may have led to balance issues.

I think Driver's performance stands out as one of the weakest in the saga, with Ewan, Hayden, Liam and Daisy (and of course Ray) far superior to him. I think even Mark in the OT, who I always thought was uncoordinated (there's one example of Mark holding his lightsaber "backward" in ROTJ, and it happens again in TLJ), was a better physical performer than Driver. I'd probably put Guinness' ANH duel performance ahead of Driver, too, despite how limited it was. I'd put Driver down there at the bottom with SLJ and the stunt doubles for McDiarmid and Lee.

And it's not just during duels. Driver looks really, really stiff and clumsy even when he executes Lor San Tekka, despite how easy that should have been.