Admiral Yularen will get "promoted" to colonel??

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by Hoggsquattle, Nov 8, 2009.

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  1. Hoggsquattle Force Ghost

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    First off, that's not in the movie. So Greedo's only actual appearance is in ANH.

    If it had been in the movie (and hopefully someday it will be along with all the others), then it will be the EU that will have to be retconned to make Greedo an older character. The reason for this is that the the other Rodian hints at Greedo's fate at Solo's hands. That forewarning makes no sense if it is Greedo's father.

    How was the "parsec" goof fixed by an EU explanation? Please explain.

    I'll hit you back with your own "That's your reading of it".

    The2ndQuest stated earlier that the STAR WARS EU "it's also not something that can be outright ignored in discussion". I was merely pointing out that it can be. The EU is intended to enhance the STAR WARS mythos for fans who choose to embrace it, but it is by no means essential in any STAR WARS discussion - unless of that STAR WARS discussion in about the EU.

    First, George did completely disregard TOTJ take on Jedi culture, etc. (that is if he even knew their take on it). Force Ghosts and Jedi marriages don't happen. Even ROGUE PLANET is out of date with that Jedi who had children.
    Second, the only EU names Lucas seems to have used is Coruscant (is that indeed Zahn's creation?) and Quinlan Vos. Aayla Secura crossed over from the EU because her character is sexy. I know of no others. Hardly evidence that Lucas gfives it more than a passing glance.

    If, George sat down tonight and began creating EPISODES VII to IX I doubt very much he would allow the EXPANDED UNIVERSE to influence him if he knew the story he wanted to tell.

    The2ndQuest wrote this - "And, quite frankly, there's a huge difference between the names of characters and other background info from the films and actual EU prose."

    The2nd is saying here that there is a "huge difference" in names and info. He is not talking about things "unnamed".

    Seriously, though, can somebody please look at Veers uniform and compare the colour to Ozzel's?
  2. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

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    So, for example, is the Republic 1,000 years old or 25,000 years? The EU fixed that mistake.

    And if parsecs can be attributed as a goof, why can't Motti's rank in the credits be as well?


    What I mean is since the EU isn't non-canon like Trek and other franchise's spin-off material, and has actually influenced and contributed to the films and this show, means it can't be ignored outright as a viable source of info. Whether or not you choose to accept the EU as 100% accurate, it's still a notable point of reference in discussion and speculation.


    He could give his own names to things and overwrite the EU ones, but he has decided to abide by the established names. [face_peace]

    You still overlook the fact that the majority of uses of "commander" in the films don't refer to an actual rank but rather a status, ie: the aforementioned Jerjerrod, Tarkin, etc. There's no evidence in the film that Tagge's actual rank is Commander.



    This is why the Greedo situation is a exception to the canon heirarchy rule- the EU version of events officially overwrites the scene "in" (though deleted from) the film. It's not a temporary ruling or the EU going out on a limb to mend a situation that could snap. The Greedo in that scene is officially not the same Greedo in ANH.

    The EU explained what the Kessel Run was and that the record being bragged about is about using the shortest distance around/through the Maw blackhole cluster near Kessel to complete it.


    Lucas didn't disregard it- it just didn't have bearing on the "modern" Jedi Order. What happened 4,000 years before the movies doesn't have a direct impact on the modern customs of the Jedi. And he was aware of it, a
  3. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

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    Reading back over that post, I think we've started to go too far off track with the canon discussion. If you'd like to continue it, we can continue in the canon and continuity discussion thread, but let's leave this thread to be about Yularen and/or rank and military issues.

    And on that note- I understand your desire to find an answer to the Motti/Tagge thing strictly from the films, but the bottomline is you can't- the credits say one thing, the scene implies another and the application of "commander" is often not a rank and thus incredibly undefinitive in resolving the scenario.

    In addition, you're unlikely to find anyone, likely including Lucas and definitely including Filoni, who'll refer to Motti as anything other than Admiral and Tagge as anything other than General. That's just how they've been referred to in every other source and every other person for decades.

    As for the uniform colors, I'll take a look.
  4. Hoggsquattle Force Ghost

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    The only reference I can recall to the age of the Old Republic is from ANH when Obi-Wan tells Luke that "For over a thousand generations the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic". The Republic could be older than even that.
    Ki-Adi-Mundi comments that the Sith have been extinct for a thousand years and Palpatine says he does not want to end 1,000 years of peace in the Republic.

    Where does the "1,000 or 25,000" come into it? Does the TPM opening crawl have "25,000 years" in it?

    Ah, I see. You mean it actually tries to make everything fit together into a reasonable timeline where as the TREK books and comics do not.

    Yes, it can be a "viable source", however, it can be completely diregard in a discussion whereas the movies and TCW cannot be.

  5. Hoggsquattle Force Ghost

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    I disagree. I think it goes to the heart of the Yularen issue. Perhaps it's a tangent, but every discussion needs a few of those.

    Yes, you can - Motti calls him Commander. Motti's rank is never addressed except in the credits.

    Furthermore, you could reasrch the costume designs, to see what reference you can find to the "badges" on their uniforms. This counts as "from the films", and more valid than EU sources.

    Again, I've never seen or heard an Admiral, General or Captain being called "Commander". Please direct to a source which can correct me if I'm wrong.

    How do you know this?
  6. Gry Sarth Ex 2x Banhammer Wielding Besalisk Mod

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    Grytpype, 2ndQuest was clear enough. Move the canon discussion to its proper thread. Let's keep this thread to Yularen's rank and any discussion on military organization.
  7. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

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    I'll split the military rank discussion here (since it pertains to the Yularen issue partly) and the rest over in the canon thread.


    IIRC, ROTJ's credits list him as Moff. The novelization definitely does (and that's something Lucas is usually more involved with since he's more protective of the treatment of "his" stories- ie: line-editing the ROTS novelization himself).


    Which is contradicted by the credits and every other source. So that indicates that the use of commander is not as a rank but description, as it is with other characters. Off the top of my head, the only characters referred to as Commander in the films who were actually of the rank of Commander were Luke in ESB and the one nobody Leia talks to upon their arrival at Yavin.

    Yes, one could make the interpretation that Tagge is a commander of rank- but every other place says otherwise. From every action figure, behind the scenes source, character bio, convention appearance, commentary/interview to more mainstream EU sources says he's a General and Motti is an Admiral. Lucas seemingly refers to them as such (he provided Motti's first name for the first time only a couple years ago). He usually sticks by or overseas the character info for his films, etc.
  8. Hoggsquattle Force Ghost

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    If the rules of the forum are that strict, then anything not that does relate directly to Yularen's change in rank between the series and the action figure are OFF TOPIC and absolutely no tangents are allowed. This is a very poor notion of as discussion. I-)

    It also seems to me that I raised points nobody is willing to discuss. Shame that.:_|
  9. Hoggsquattle Force Ghost

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    I'm not sure about the credits, but I also recollect that in the novelization he is indeed a Moff. However, this is exactly the same as the Tagge issue - what we hear spoken in the movie is the final script. For whatever reason, Lucas change his rank to Commander on the day of shooting. The novelizations of movies rarely work from the final shooting script.

    Now who wants it both ways.
    These other sources are the same sources which say Motti is an admiral. yet the credits state it's general. How can it be correct for one and wrong for the other?

    Also, how can the final shooting script be wrong?

    Please, show me an example of a military officers holding the rank of admiral or general, who is called "Commander" not (not "a" commander) by other officers or subordinates. This as been claimed more than once here and I keep asking but I get no answer. Please, if I'm wrong, I want to know.

    Again, as above - it's not an interpretation - Motti says it.
    Plus, I've never heard Lucas refer to Tagge or his rank. Did he intend for that character to be a general, but like the "parsec" incident a mistake was made? such things happen but like "parsec" in was spoken on screen in the finished movie.
    It makes no sense for every "source" to name him general, thus contradicting what we see in the movie. It is only logical that the "sources" change their data to the correct info.
  10. Gry Sarth Ex 2x Banhammer Wielding Besalisk Mod

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    Well, we're being quite lenient with the forum rules (they're more like guidelines, anyway ;)). This whole discussion has veered far too much off topic, to the point of being a disservice to itself. 2ndQuest is trying to do a bit of house cleaning now, so that all the points can be discussed in an objective fashion. True, this thread is about Yularen's rank, but discussing the organization of the military is quite pertinent to the original discussion, so there's no problem to veer off into this direction here. Going in depth into several issues of canon however, is going a bit too far, so it's best to split the discussion into its appropriate threads.

    Well, you're raising a lot of points, so some of them do tend to fall through the cracks. Sometimes people are just not ineterested in discussing everything, and just focus on topic they care more about.
  11. Hoggsquattle Force Ghost

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    I see nothing wrong in a discussion "veering" on to new topics. That is what happens.

    By "splitting" the discussion, to you mean The2ndQuest intends to edit the thread?

    Well, if a person doesn't want to discuss certain points raised in a discuss, then it's not much off a discussion. If a person wants to be involved they can't just stick with what makes them comfortable.

    You'll never learn anything that way.
  12. Gry Sarth Ex 2x Banhammer Wielding Besalisk Mod

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    It's all right to veer off into new topics as long as you're still discussing the same overall issue. The problem with having a thread supposedly devoted to ranks in the military that is instead discussing in-depth canon issues is that: 1-The rank issue loses strength and questions go unanswered. 2-Someone looking to discuss canon-issues will go to the Canon thread and miss all the good discussion that's been going on in the wrong thread.

    No, he's not editing the thread, he's just making sure that from now on the issues pertaining to canon happen in the Canon thread instead of here.

    It's not about avoiding "uncomfortable" issues, nobody is running away from an argument here. It's just that with so many points being raised, people don't have time to discuss the ones they have no interest on. I don't much care about the colour of Ozzel's uniform, so I don't discuss that. I'm not avoiding the issue, I just don't care about it. Someone who does is welcome to comment on it.
  13. Hoggsquattle Force Ghost

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    But the issue of canon was related to the issue of rank ??

    Good

    But the colour of Ozzel and Veer's uniform is an important point in discussing whether the Imperial military is divided into branches or is a single organization - a "deciding factor" in fact.

    I'd always thought they wore the same colour - evidence that they may indeed be one single group.

    However, looking at a still the other day they appeared to be slightly different in colour. This could be due to lighting, but they could be different.

    This would be clear evidence that George, will never stating it in the dialogue or anywhere else in the movies, did intend for the Imperial forces to be branched into army, navy, etc. - irrelevant of whatever EU sources say on the matter.

    You may have no interest in the colour of costumes, but it is vitally important.
  14. Gry Sarth Ex 2x Banhammer Wielding Besalisk Mod

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    They were related only as far as accepting or not the EU arguments concerning ranks and organization. But the discussion had moved way beyond that territory, which is why it was more productive to move it to the appropriate thread.

    I wouldn't call it a "deciding factor" or "clear evidence". Even if his uniform did have a different tone, that's not enough to base a whole "different branches" argument which invalidates a crystal clear organization established by other sources. The colour could be different due to lighting, post-production color-grading or simply due to a minor slip-up in the costuming department. In-universe, his uniform could be from a different batch, with slightly altered colours, or washed with a different kind of soap or whatever...
    Or, just as you said that it being the same colour may indicate a single group, it being a different colour may not indicate separate groups.
  15. Hoggsquattle Force Ghost

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    Not really "way beyond", I was merely pointing out some obvious errors in the EU and saying that it doesn't make much sense to disregard things from the actual movie, whiich are the heart and soul of STAR WARS.

    Considering that there will be no more movies, and unless a future TV series, is set in the timeframe, the colour of the uniforms in that scene in EMPIRE is a deciding factor - irrelevant of what is contained in the EU.
    Veer's is the only non-stormtrooper Imperial officer who we know for definite actually commands ground troops. If his uniform is the same colour as Ozzel's and Piett's then it is likely that Imperial military structure is the same as the GRAND ARMY in TCW.
    If it is a different colour, then there must be a reason. His uniform is different because he is in a different branch to Ozzel - he is only seen commanding ground troops and not a ship - so therefore the Empire does indeed have an army separate to it's fleet.

    Production-wise the colour may be accidental - but like the "parsec" incident that is a goof that works within the movie - an accident in the costume department created an Imperial Army!! Awesome!!!
  16. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

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    I'm not trying to edit the thread, I'm merely directing off-topic canon discussion (such as what EU goes into the movies, and Lucas's involvement with the development of games, comcis, etc) to the appropriate thread, as canon debates can (and usually do) overwhelm the topic of a thread, which is why we try to contain them to a single thread.


    I'm not trying to have it both ways- I acknowledge the credits are in error. However, you cite the credits as your primary reason why Motti is not an Admiral. If your going to be that strict with the film interpretation, all I have left to cite as a counter evidence is the credits themselves.

    You have to understand that a wealth of background material is created for the films for reference- not just "new EU", but the established info for things like character names and ranks, ship classes and species names. They're official and unlikely to ever be ocntradicted because they were invented for this exact purpose because you can't mention every single character's name, rank, species and homeworld and preferred model of transportation in a film.

    Parsecs, etc.


    Well, using only the narrow sources you wish to use, the most notable would be Jerjerrod being a Moff and commander of the DS2. If your not taking the credits in ANH as an error, then Tagge is a General referred to as commander.

    Beyond that, you wouldn't call a commander "a commander" when addressing him/her directly- that's primarily a third person reference. Vader is not going to say "I hope so, commander of the Death Star, for your sake..." and the line isn't "You are the commander of the Death Star- I hope so, for your sake."

    Out of universe, since most SW military ranks are based on real-world ones, there are several examples of it being used as a title instead of rank.


    No, you're interpretating that it is a rank and not a title and you're interpretating that the credits are in error.

    If Lucas intended him to be a General, then it would make sense for every other source to reflect the "correct" version of that mistake as the credits do, assuming one interpet's Motti's comment to be a reference to rank and not title.

    Otherwise, there is no error with Tagge and it's only Motti that has to change so far as his credits listing is.

    But, even in that scenario, it may seem logical, but that's not how Lucas/film decided to handle it. The films may be top canon, but they can still make mistakes.
  17. Hoggsquattle Force Ghost

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    I was only asking.

    Well, first off, you are saying that the credits are wrong because the EU disagrees. I'm saying it because the final script says so.
    I'm not "citing the credits as the primary reason" - they are only source of Motti's rank because nothing in the movie says otherwise, like it does for Tagge.

    Officially created by Lucas, yes - but irrelevant if the finished movie disagrees - unless an edit is done to change it

    [/quote]

    Ah, Lucas made a mistake, but the script isn't wrong.


    Well, using only the narrow sources you wish to use, the most notable would be Jerjerrod being a Moff and commander of the DS2. If your not taking the credits in ANH as an error, then Tagge is a General referred to as commander. [/quote]

    That was my third time asking that. The first two specifically asked for real world examples. I didn't ask that the third time because I thought it was self evident. You can't use as two in movie examples of two of the three instances that we disagreeing about.

    That is exactly a point I made previously. Vader says "I hope so Commander" not "I hope so Moff"

    Exactly what I was looking for. Googled it myself but came up with nothing. Okay, it doesn't state that an actual general could be called "commander" but it's good enough for me. So this sorts out the issue of rank for Tagge and Moff and removes those "errors" in regards to the credits - Tagge is indeed a general, Jerjerrod is a Moff and it so follows that obviously and logically Motti is a general also.

    After all of that, a simple Wiki entry would have sorted it out. We've learned something today. :)

    [/quote]

    Issue sort
  18. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

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    There's a limit to the number of quotes per message- we've both obviously exceeded them ;)

    I'll respond later tonight, but I did want to note that, amusingly enough, one of the few actual ranked Commanders referred to in the films, Commander Willard, is listed as General Willard in the film credits (he's possibly confused with General Hudsol).
  19. Hoggsquattle Force Ghost

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    HA!! THE GALAXY IS TOO BIG TO CONTROL!!

    anywho, won't be online myself for a few days.

    laters.
  20. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

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    Imperial Military Uniforms- even has the exact color grade of the different uniforms.

    I'm gonna skim the Imperial scenes in the films and see if there's any variation with the consistency of Army and Navy troopers.
  21. CaptainYossarian Force Ghost

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    On an unrelated note - use of the term parsecs in ANH was not a mistake, as explained by Lucas on the DVD commentary. It is a unit of distance and that is what he intended it to mean. Therefore there may have been an EU explanation created for what Han meant by completing the Kessel Run in less that 12 parsecs, but it is not a retcon since the meaning did not change.
  22. Gry Sarth Ex 2x Banhammer Wielding Besalisk Mod

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    Trying to stay on topic here.
  23. Hoggsquattle Force Ghost

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    He may indeed say that, but he also admitted years ago that is was a mistake on his part.

    Lucas retconned himself!!
  24. Hoggsquattle Force Ghost

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    Is there any site or book that has images of both movie and EU uniforms, New Republic in particular?
  25. DanikKreldin Jedi Grand Master

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    I would say theforce.net/swtc, but I know a lot of people don't like his work.
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