Advisory Council-Needed or Unnecessary

Discussion in 'Communications' started by Master Salty, Jan 28, 2003.

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  1. Porkins in a Speedo Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 6, 1999
    star 5
    i agree. and that's why i've been saying that IF they aren't representing anyone but themselves then they shouldn't be given any special "status", nor should they be advertising themselves by having titles, posting weekly updates, etc etc. IF they aren't representing everyone and aren't here to serve the members then they should remain behind the scenes and not in the spotlight. that would prevent a lot of the problems. i've been saying this for a few days now (with more detail at times), but apparently no one is listening. *sigh*

    EDIT: new keyboard plz. thx.
  2. Qui Gon Jim23 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2002
    star 5
    Alright boys and girls, there is no "leader" of the AC. Though it seems less and less common in the rest of the JC, we are able to function fully independently of the opinions of the other members.

    What's say we get off the individual problems we have with AC members and back onto the constructive suggestions we had on the last page.


    And if there's a "Teh Leader" it's me.
  3. AmazingB Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jan 12, 2001
    star 7
    "but that's not how it works."

    Actually, that's exactly how it works. When any of us are PMed, we bring up the topic in the AC. We don't have to agree with whatever point is being raised. We just bring it up for discussion.

    "Teh Leader (Darth_AYBABTU) says that the AC is not here to represent you."

    There is no leader. There are three permanent members, but none of them are the leader. Secondly, as I've pointed out so many times, we don't "represent" you via traditional means. We represent a range of opinions (maybe not enough, but that's a different point) on different topics, most (if not all) of which are likely shared by a number of JCers.

    Amazing.
  4. Ternian Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2000
    star 4
    And Ternian, I still don't see what's so "elite" about titles...

    1. As has already been mentioned, the AC appears only to represent the opinions of the people in the AC and no one else. The idea to have members labeled is elite.

    2. The only way you currently be nominated for the AC is to 'be in the know.' That's elite.

    3. The reasons we no longer have Stars anymore is because it divided the JC. All these titles that are thrown around do exactly the same thing.

    4. I am sure, the titles can be put into sig's instead. They aren't that important.



    ARIANA LANG

    ... think the fact that slash (PG-13 and under) is not allowed is wrong. But we can't seem to be able to talk about it calmly in comms. Could you bring it up in the AC?

    Technically, this should be brought up in communications. It is obviously something to be brought to the attention of the mods - which is not the AC.

    If the mods are unable to resolve the problem, or need further input on how it could affect their forums, without the so called 'drama,' that is when the AC should become effective.

    We shouldn't be relying on the AC to take every problem you encounter to the mods - that is what the Communications forum is designed for.

    The AC is there to advise the mods on their proposals - not ours.
  5. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    2. The only way you currently be nominated for the AC is to 'be in the know.' That's elite.

    Very much untrue. I've seen several people nominated in the three terms I've been a moderator for who were definitely not "in the know." They may be known, but I'd say that comes with being a good poster.


    3. I am sure, the titles can be put into sig's instead. They aren't that important.


    The general feedback I've seen is that most people don't read signatures, and that it isn't an effective way of letting people know who's on the AC. It was tried, and it didn't work.
  6. Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2001
    star 6
    "... think the fact that slash (PG-13 and under) is not allowed is wrong. But we can't seem to be able to talk about it calmly in comms. Could you bring it up in the AC?"

    Technically, this could be brought up in communications. It is obviously something to be brought to the attention of the mods - not the AC.


    I think what she's saying is that since we can't have a calm constructive conversation here on the matter, maybe the AC can take it to the mods in the AC Forum and have a calm constructive conversation on the matter. I do have to admit, it is much easier to have a constructive conversation with the mods in the AC Forum where the drama is minimal.
  7. Spike_Spiegal Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2002
    star 5
    The general feedback I've seen is that most people don't read signatures, and that it isn't an effective way of letting people know who's on the AC. It was tried, and it didn't work.

    I totally agree. Titles are the way to go to tell people about the AC and one's affiliation with that organization.
  8. Ternian Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2000
    star 4
    Very much untrue. I've seen several people nominated in the three terms I've been a moderator for who were definitely not "in the know." They may be known, but I'd say that comes with being a good poster.

    Yes, but again, it returns to the 'opinions' problems outlined earlier.

    The general feedback I've seen is that most people don't read signatures, and that it isn't an effective way of letting people know who's on the AC. It was tried, and it didn't work.

    Again, it has been established that the members of the AC only represent their opinions - there is no need for titles.

    We seem to be backtracking here, but anyway:

    If the AC is only used by the mods to get personal opinions on changes they are considereding, then no titles are needed.

    Titles cause division, Knightwriter - as per point 3 - just get rid of them.

    I think what she's saying is that since we can't have a calm constructive conversation here on the matter, maybe the AC can take it to the mods in the AC Forum and have a calm constructive conversation on the matter.

    What I meant is that the AC is there to advise mods on new procedures or changes and how it could affect the JC membership.

    The AC is NOT there to take suggestions or discussions about members concerns - that is the job of the Communications Forum; to communicate to the Mods.

    Let's use Ariana's example:

    Ariana wants slash fiction allowed in Fan Fics.

    1. She posts her suggestion/concern in Communications for everyone to see.

    2. Everyone on the JC can have their input - as useful or useless as it may be.

    3. The Mods discuss this issue but have several concerns or cannot reach a decision or need more selective input. They decide to approach the AC.

    4. The Mods nominate one person to represent them in the AC and then put forward the problem.

    5. The AC discusses the problem and tries to resolve it to the best of their ability.

    6. Either the mods agree or disagree and the outcome is posted in the Information Forum.

    It's rather simple.

    I do have to admit, it is much easier to have a constructive conversation with the mods in the AC Forum where the drama is minimal.

    That's fine for you - but what about me and other members who aren't in the AC? It creates an elitest atmosphere.
  9. GriffZ Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 27, 2001
    star 6

    Exactly. If it were colours, then I could see how would be viewed as "elite." But titles, on the other hand, just seem helpful.

    Anyway, I think the nomination/election process is what needs the majority of the reform efforts.

    EDIT: That was towards Spike, btw.

  10. Spike_Spiegal Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2002
    star 5
    Again, it has been established that the members of the AC only represent their opinions - there is no need for titles.

    Then why are AC members open to pms and then relate those to the AC?


    EDIT: Yeah, colors would be too much as GriffZ said.

    And I would agree that the nomination process needs alot of attention because it is tied to the issue of representation across all forums that we seem to be needing.

    This might involve seperate structures for each forum as other people have mentioned and an increase in roster size.
  11. Ternian Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2000
    star 4
    Then why are AC members open to pms and then relate those to the AC?

    It has already been established that at the end of the day, the AC only represent themselves. The idea that it is anything more seems mute.

    -----

    Personally, I think the 'titles' issue has pulled us off the original track. It is another argument altogether about the use of titles.

    Let's keep it on topic by returning to the original thoughts on the Reformation of the AC (although I will return on the discussion of titles in another thread, another time ;) ).
  12. Spike_Spiegal Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2002
    star 5
    It has already been established that at the end of the day, the AC only represent themselves. The idea that it is anything more seems mute.

    In any representational system the opinions of a people are filtered through one person's subjective conciousness. I really don't think that means the AC members don't represent other people's opinions to a signifigant and useful extent.

    And I think you mean moot. :p
  13. GriffZ Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 27, 2001
    star 6
    Okay. I guess the first thing, before looking at the election process, is to define exactly what the AC does.

    I think Ternian made a good point when he said, "The AC is NOT there to take suggestions or discussions about members concerns - that is the job of the Communications Forum; to communicate to the Mods."

    It does seem a bit silly to have member's concerns discussed in a forum they have no access to; so if the AC is not about member concerns, then Ternian may be on to something...

  14. Spike_Spiegal Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2002
    star 5
    Yes, but the chosing of ACers from among a pool of reg users and from a diverse set of forums should help that group share the same concerns as many members, especially if the selection process is democratic.

    Or no? :p


  15. Porkins in a Speedo Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 6, 1999
    star 5
    Qui_Gon_Jim23 and AmazingB,

    did you ever think that maybe, just maybe, i was only trying to be facetious about "Teh Leader" thing? and i assumed that most of the ACers agreed with "The AYBABTU Proclamation."

    it seems like not even the ACers themselves can agree on what their purpose is.


    anyhoo, i've simply just been trying to help, with everything i've said in this thread the last few days.
  16. AmazingB Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jan 12, 2001
    star 7
    "did you ever think that maybe, just maybe, i was only trying to be facetious about "Teh Leader" thing?"

    Yes, of course. I'd just like to prevent any confusion for those who wouldn't realize it.

    Amazing.
  17. Porkins in a Speedo Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 6, 1999
    star 5
    and i poop a lot. just for, ya know, clarification and stuff.

    ....


    *whistles*
  18. Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2001
    star 6
    What I meant is that the AC is there to advise mods on new procedures or changes and how it could affect the JC membership.

    The AC is NOT there to take suggestions or discussions about members concerns -


    I would say in the case of her slash request, it falls into the case of the former, not the later, so her request for the AC to discuss the matter sounds reasonable.


    That's fine for you - but what about me and other members who aren't in the AC? It creates an elitest atmosphere.

    I would have to say take it up with the drama kings and queens of Comm. If they would chill with the drama, I can guarentee you threads like this would be a mute point, and much more would be accomplished far more efficently. Frankly, I'm open to having a discussion about JC policy with anyone who wants to discuss and not dramatize or complain. Oddly (and sadly), half the time that's hard to find in here.


    It has already been established that at the end of the day, the AC only represent themselves. The idea that it is anything more seems mute.

    Flamingsword and I have both said we will take people's concerns to the AC.




  19. Ternian Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2000
    star 4
    I would say in the case of her slash request, it falls into the case of the former, not the later, so her request for the AC to discuss the matter sounds reasonable.

    I think you have missed the last point I made about the difference.

    The AC should not be there for member concerns - that is what Comms is for.

    I can't see why discussing that particular topic in the AC is going to any different to Comms. If the idea is to persuade JOSH to change his attitutde, then it really has no bearing on what the AC decide - unless, Josh does change his mind and wants to know limits on introducing slash.

    I would have to say take it up with the drama kings and queens of Comm. If they would chill with the drama, I can guarentee you threads like this would be a mute point, and much more would be accomplished far more efficently.

    You elitest view that only YOU can act efficently is annoying, to say the least.

    Frankly, I'm open to having a discussion about JC policy with anyone who wants to discuss and not dramatize or complain. Oddly (and sadly), half the time that's hard to find in here.

    Yet another elitest view. People's views are people's views - if you cannot cope with that, and would like to classify it as complaining, you shouldn't be representing anyone at all: but then again, you are only represesnting your opinion, no?

    Flamingsword and I have both said we will take people's concerns to the AC.

    I think you've missed most of the points already established why your above comment does not work.

    I feel like we are lagging behind in the progress already made. :(

  20. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    Yet another elitest view. People's views are people's views - if you cannot cope with that, and would like to classify it as complaining, you shouldn't be representing anyone at all: but then again, you are only represesnting your opinion, no?


    I think the key is that it's not what you say, but how you say it. I believe just about any opinion will be heard if it's said constructively, which is usually how it is in the AC. In Communications, everyone's opinion is heard, but it's sometimes so negative that it's hard to get anything constructive or productive out of it.

    Just a thought.
  21. Ternian Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2000
    star 4
    To recap where we are...

    Problems with Communications

    Weakness of the AC:

    1) Only represents 12 opinions therefore not giving a range of response to ideas.

    2) AC members are elected by previous members meaning that other opinions are may never be heard.

    3) Creates an elite group of people singled out by titles and private forums.

    4) The Forum cannot be seen, so no one knows if their opinion is being accurately represented.

    5) The Communications Forum already exists for member/mod discussions.

    Strengths of the AC:

    1) Mods can present ideas to a select group of members without possible drama.

    ___________________________________________

    Possible outcomes:

    1. Disband the AC.

    * Remove the AC altogether.
    * Return the Communications forum to its original purpose.

    or

    2. Reformation of Comms and AC.

    Communications:

    Purpose: to convey concerns and suggestions from the general membership to the Adminstration and Mod team.

    i) Stricter posting guidelines:

    WARNING = Via PM and have post removed in thread for spamming, derailing topics, off-topic posts, personal attacks, etc First Warning.

    * Users must have at least some option to talk to mods about their posts if in question.

    7 DAY Ban = Second time warning.

    Perm ban = Final warning.

    ii) Dedicated Moderator for Communications only.

    iii) Removal of all announcements to the Informations Forum. ie. Moderator updates, AC updates, New Mod updates, step-downs, board shut downs etc.

    AC:

    Purpose: To be used by the mods to garner feedback on new policies and changes which would affect members before being implemented.

    * Make the AC Forum available for public viewing.
    * Remove titles (subject to another debate).
    * Reform membership elections:

    - Have mods choose one member to represent them in the Council.

    * Change members every three months with no previous member being allowed to be re-elected.
  22. Ariana Lang Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 10, 1999
    star 5
    Except you left out the entire last page in which we talked about ways to make the AC better. You're giving an awfully biased report on things. :(
  23. Ternian Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2000
    star 4
    Except you left out the entire last page in which we talked about ways to make the AC better. You're giving an awfully biased report on things.

    About the titles? Or something else?

    If I have left something out, please list it with your response.

    Otherwise I am just gathering together what has been discussed. If I was biased, I would get rid of the AC altogether. [face_plain]
  24. Qui Gon Jim23 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2002
    star 5
    I agree wholeheartedly with cracking down on the garbage that dominates Comms. I'd also like to see the MS Updates as read-only announcements. If someone has a problem with something in the update, let them start a new Comms thread or go to a mod. How many times do we need to read "Great job. Thanks for the update"?

    Cut out the fluff and make Comms legitimate and I'm all for whatever you want to do with the AC.
  25. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    Ternian...
    "The reasons we no longer have Stars anymore is because it divided the JC. All these titles that are thrown around do exactly the same thing."

    Not quite. It was facilitating and encouraging spam and spam contests.

    If by "dividing" you mean that yes, it divided the forum into those that loved to see the forums be spammed in petty and ridiculous ways so people can get another star and those who came to discuss things, then it divided the forums.

    But, that was a symptom of the problem and not why stars were done away with...

    ...Besides, you can still see how many stars everyone has anyway, so the arguments not really valid anyway. ;)
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