Advisory Council Update as of Nov. 30

Discussion in 'Communications' started by Jedi Greg Maddux, Nov 30, 2002.

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  1. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    If a moderator or Advisory Council member had a fear of revealing and putting their opinions and thoughts into the general organization of the Jedi Council, then why are they moderators or AC members?

    Because opinions can be twisted, manipulated and misinterpreted. In a private setting, that is less likely to happen. Moderators are in their positions because they are able to moderate the boards and share their thoughts on issues in both public and private. I fail to see what a private forum does to stop that.

    For that matter, does that mean that AC updates and Mod-Squad updates contain no real information, considering that many members of the board police are afraid to reveal and share their thoughts and opinions with the public they will affect?

    I'd say the Updates contain real information.

    Privacy is indeed required in a number of cases, but this is one you're asking the public to comment upon. Is it really too much to share information on an issue that will have a great impact in the future?


    Do you want information, as in what a person actually did, or do you want people's opinions, which are subjective?
  2. Tellesto Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 7, 1999
    star 5
    Do you want information, as in what a person actually did, or do you want people's opinions, which are subjective?

    Can't we (as in the membership, not just Tellesto) have both?

  3. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    Can't we (as in the membership, not just Tellesto) have both?


    I can easily see why you need the information. You need it to make your opinions with.

    Can you explain what you need other people's private opinions for?
  4. Tellesto Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 7, 1999
    star 5
    Because I want to see the administration's thoughts and feelings on the matter, and how they plan to solve the situation in addition to member's and Advisory Council Rep's ideas. A great many members respect the moderator opinion, I don't see why it cannot be included for those viewing the situation. You're the decision makers: show us what decision you're making.
  5. Kadue Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 20, 2000
    star 5
    Let me clarify something from back in the 4th or 5th post that seems to be a bone of contention. This quote:
    Most of the material isn't intended for regular users to read, and this is ultimately left to the discretion of the Mod Squad.
    is extremely badly worded, and gives across the wrong impression, at least from my point of view. There aren't any specifics from the discussion really, as a lot of the talk centres around a specific case or two, and we have a policy of not giving out information on anyone, regular user or not, in these types of discussion.

    If you want to hear our general opinions though, ask, and yea shall receive. Personally, we are, and should be, held to the same, if not higher standard as any other user on these boards are, regardless of the issue at hand, be it spamming, flaming, trolling or anything else.
  6. Qui Gon Jim23 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2002
    star 5
    As far as I'm concerned, any and all of the edge the Advisory Council had (if it ever had any) is nearly gone. Putting moderators into positions within the Advisory Council, reforming the Advisory Council, establishing term limits upon the members of the Advisory Council...these are all policies and card-tricks devised to take the bite out of the Advisory Council.

    You've completely lost me here. Term limits have been a part of the AC from its inception. I always assumed that that was so that more "regular" users could have a voice. There is no new reform as such going on with the AC, we are simply putting down in an official document exactly how voting procedures and removal policies so that the transition in the AC runs more smoothly. In a word, we are trying to make the AC more professional in the since that there is consistency in voting and removal policy. The moderators have had absolutely no say in these policies to date, so if I understand what you are saying, why exactly would we try to handcuff the AC ourselves?

    Though a good friend of mine might disagree, I believe the AC has more teeth than it ever has at the moment. We have a strong core group of members, all with diverse ideas who actively participate in all of the discussion that takes place there. I'll say this to the next AC class -- the forum is what you make of it. There is a reason why two-thirds of the way through our term our group has started almost half of the threads in the AC -- we have made a concerted effort to get involved. The AC only has as much influence as it is willing to go out and get.

    As far as former mods go, there's nothing wrong with a little experimentation. Lord knows it was an interesting one for us, but as has been stated earlier, each group of ACer's can either include them or not after having looked back on our term to see just how well it worked.


    And lastly, if you need more details about a situation, PM an AC member. We've asked from day one for people to PM us with their ideas, questions or gripes and have seen disappointingly little response. We are always more than happy to talk to anyone about issues we are discussing, and can probably give out a little more information than we would here, but I don't like the idea of putting out information about specific users in Comms. Ninety-percent of the people here are good people, but as is in life, the other ten percent ruin it for everyone else.

  7. Tellesto Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 7, 1999
    star 5
    Ok, makes sense.

    Term limits, was just one of the problems I threw in there because in all honesty, I was a little confused about why you were changing the system that has been in place since day one. I do appreciate your explanation though.

    I can also agree with the need for respect when dealing with situations that center around people...members and admin alike. I suppose all I'm really asking for is more information on the problem rather then being told that there is a problem currently under discussion.

    Aside from those thoughts I wanted to share, I also forgot to tell Greg that I enjoyed the update. I've seen it change a tad from the original format I presented it in when I was running the updates, but I believe that change to be for the better. It's much easier to read and understand, and I'm sure it's the same for the entire membership.
    Despite any criticism I may have towards the subject matter, I thought it was well done. Props to Greg for this week's update and props to the entire AC for improving upon the update formula.
  8. UK Sullustian Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1998
    star 4
    "Term limits, was just one of the problems I threw in there because in all honesty, I was a little confused about why you were changing the system that has been in place since day one. I do appreciate your explanation though."

    I think a lot of reasons behind the documenting of procedures is all to do with the fact that a lot of "Macro Advisory Council" threads were coming up, (i.e. Discussion on the running of the Advisory Council rather then discussion of things by the Advisory Council). Thus, it was thought best that some form of set of helpful instructions could be put together, thus saving the next iteration of the Advisory Council from having to "Reinvent the wheel" and do it all over again.

    Also, Kadue was correct on the point about that part of the update being worded a little harshly. The only thing not being mentioned was specific examples and discussions of one user, and it could be seen as being not fair to single out personal discussion of one member. That is why that part was one of the final amendments and is why it isn't not worded as carefully as perhaps someone could.

    Finally, I saw a mention back up the thread (it could have been farraday?) about Advisory Council members perhaps trying to "curry favour" and get "promoted" to Moderator. IMHO, I think the Advisory Council is actually the best cure for any form of "Colour Envy"!

    UKS
  9. Jedi Greg Maddux Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 1999
    star 6
    I'm genuinely sorry for writing such a flawed AC update. I had a very difficult time writing it up, especially since I had a very busy week in real life. I probably could have waited another day to polish it up, but I felt that I owed it to the JC public and not postpone the update any longer. If something you read looks funny or wrong, I heartily apologize, and I'd be more than happy to discuss any topic I've covered (or failed to cover) in private. :)

    I'm in agreement with Jim. About this crew, I don't think I could have asked for a better group of people to work with. We're supporting and critical of everyone's ideas and comments at the same time, and our bonding is stronger than the toughest glue.

    Some of the stuff we might come up with might seem unorthodox, but we always keep in mind that it's our AC, and we should be willing to try anything once, and to keep an open mind at all times. We're going to have to try extra hard to ingrain that mentality in the next AC batch. ;)
  10. Humble extra Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 12, 1999
    star 5
    I see the AC as primarily a talk shop, where members who have an opinion are able to discuss and critique happenings in the JC in a secure environment.

    Now in order to be an effective body the AC has to be seen by the moderators to be effective (as well as the members), if it is to have any real say in policy and in fact anything. This is the reason that the last AC intake of which i was a part initiated the reforms that are currently under debate. We realised that the AC was in danger of being disbanded due to our inactivity, which was largely our fault.

    That is why we increased the number of rotational members to 8, and that is why I personally supported the inclusion of the 3 ex mods, despite justified fears of undue influence.........these two reforms have provided critical mass to the AC which has on the whole become a more effective body, at least from outside appearences.
  11. EmpressPalpatine Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 31, 2001
    star 4
    does anyone else feel that the reason for such negativity against mods and former mods serving on the AC by some members is due to those members wanting so desperately to be chosen themselves??? [face_mischief]
  12. Humble extra Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 12, 1999
    star 5
  13. Gay-LenKenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2000
    star 5
    Yes, because that is the only reason people would ever have interest in AC policies. They must be posturing for consideration to serve as a mod or AC member. [face_shocked]


    On the other hand, those that suggest ways to procure rewards for mods or AC members aren't doing it to gain favor with those groups, but simply because of their gratitude.


    Just like those who offer attacks/accusations about a person and their motivations in a debate rather than an actual response do so not because they can't think of a valid rebuttal or they hope to discredit the other person, but because they have legitimate and conclusive reason to believe so.



  14. Kyle Katarn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 10, 1998
    star 6
    A little paranoid, aren't we??

    Thank you, JGM. Informative, as always.
  15. DarthSapient Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 26, 2001
    star 10
    I see no posturing going on in the AC. They're a great group. They are extremely helpful, informative, and honest. They love the boards and have its best interest at heart.
  16. Qui Gon Jim23 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2002
    star 5
    Alright, ladies. No need to bring personal squabbles into this thread.

    If you're going to make personal attacks, at least try to make them a little less obvious -- or direct them at me, I like the attention. :D
  17. Katya Jade Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jan 19, 2002
    star 7
    Just to add my 4.5 cents...

    Former mods on the AC: I believe that having former mods on the AC - serving as farraday said in a "non-voting" and advisory capacity only - helps the AC gain another perspective during our discussions that benefits the AC members. That being said, each AC term should be able to make that determination on their own. While we have found it helpful, other AC members may not.

    Update details: I do agree that since we are regular members, the AC updates should have some more details on discussions and issues we are looking at in our "super secret forum". ;) However, I don't think it's benefical to post an entire thread on a subject, but rather the significant points in the discussion and what was recommended, if appropriate.

    We generally put a "point of discussion" at the end of the update to help get input on issues we are discussing in the AC. It's been helpful to get feedback from people who read the updates.

    As a final point, I hope the members understand that the AC is in existence to help be a resource for more in depth and one-on-one discussions with the mods. There have been some very heated and productive discussions in the AC about a variety of topics. The members are genuinely interested in trying to help improve the JC as a whole in our own small way. I sincerely thank all of you who have read these updates, participated in the discussion points and contacted us with your suggestions. That's what this is all about. :)
  18. Valiowk Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2000
    star 6
    Regarding the extremely badly-worded issue, I totally agree with that. When I was reading the draft of this in the AC, I honestly wanted to make a complaint about it, but then I noticed that it had already been posted some time ago.

    I'm not so sure that the actual issue at hand needs so much secrecy. Essentially, it's already been partially let out in the point of discussion - it's about what happens when a mod spams, or even if there's a doubt about whether or not it is real spamming, what happens when there are many threads created by a mod in a short period of time. The important reason why the situation was not more explicitly mentioned was because it does not concern an entire group of people, but rather only a single person.

    I think if the AC wants a former mod to serve, they should pick them to fill one of the normal positions. I don't think they should be given special positions or picked just because of their status as former mods.

    GLK: If so, you're giving the former mods voting powers, while they're not given voting powers at present. We're not giving ex-mods more priviledges than full ACers, in fact they have less.
  19. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    I very much agree with Humble Extra regarding what in my opinion is the best use of the AC...
    "I see the AC as primarily a talk shop, where members who have an opinion are able to discuss and critique happenings in the JC in a secure environment."

    I felt this way as a regular user when discussion about forming various incarnations of AC was going on. I felt this way while I was a member of the Advisory Council. And I still feel this way as a moderator. The AC has historically always been made up of users who have no other goal than to try and make the JC the best it can be. Even though the individual members change, that one item has remained constant. There is communication and there is effective communication. Oftentimes, because of the large numbers of people involved, Comms discussions are less than effective. More often than not, because of the size of the group, AC discussions are very effective.

    As long as people are using the AC for this purpose, I don't think it will ever lose its purpose.

    And then that comment about the AC by Tellesto...
    "As far as I'm concerned, any and all of the edge the Advisory Council had (if it ever had any) is nearly gone. Putting moderators into positions within the Advisory Council, reforming the Advisory Council, establishing term limits upon the members of the Advisory Council...these are all policies and card-tricks devised to take the bite out of the Advisory Council."

    The AC has as much edge and "bite" as the users are willing to put into it. I'm not talking about the AC members. I'm talking about everyone here. It's your institution. Use it.

    I also find the assertion that "card-tricks" are being used to defang the AC. The claims related to it are false. No moderators hold positions within the AC. And has been said earlier, term limits have always been a part of the AC. In this latest incarnation, they originated as a mixed-limit. There was a two-tiered membership class in the AC: "permanent members" and "temporary members." The permanent members were "permanent," (presumably there until they were banned or bowed out) and the remporary members had a three-month limit. As of late, the "permanent" members haven't been so permanent, with two such members having bowed out fairly recently. So, its reasonable this turnover would drive a new analysis of the "permanent" designation.

    But, the three-month term-limit has always been a part of this AC's operation.

    And then the issue of details about Mod Spam. Everyone has available to them the various Jedi Council statements on spam, either in YJCC or in the Welcome forum. Everyone also has their own idea of what it means to moderate.

    Put those two together and make an opinion on the matter. You have all of the information you ever need. And should you choose to analyze the matter in detail, you can check out all of the moderators' "latest posts" to see if any of them have been doing what you think is spam on the general boards. Everyone has always been able to do this, so everyone has always had the "information" on the matter in question available to them.
  20. mac-nut Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 14, 2001
    star 5
    Thank you, JGM, for the update. An update is better than no-update, and thanks, for the up-update, too. Just got back from a hectic 2 week vacation from Vegas to the east coast back to vegas and home. will catch up with everyone soon.
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