Advisory Council Update for the week ending November 7th

Discussion in 'Communications' started by ReaperFett, Nov 8, 2002.

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  1. Gay-LenKenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2000
    star 5
    Why does that matter?

    I'm not allowed to have an opinion?

    I would love to see a non-SW films forum here, or a television forum. But I know it will never happen, and it shouldn't. Because it is far too specific. There is no need to break down every single topic for discussion into it's own forum.

    Having a SW-Music forum made sense, because this is after-all a SW board. But having a film music only board is giving special consideration and treatment to a small group of people. The BYS doesn't get it's own forum, and they have a pretty large community going.
  2. Sithman Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 1999
    star 7
    "Why does that matter?

    I'm not allowed to have an opinion?
    "



    By this statement, you obviously are saying you have never been there. :)

    Oh, and why does it matter? I have an idea, take a look at this example:

    ----------
    Suppose you are taking a history test. Now you are going to be making decisions on this test, right? Right. True or False. A, B, C, or D? You'll be making decisions. Now, would it have helped to have been immersed in the source of the problems (the history text book) before making such decisions? Well, considering when most students attempt to do well on tests, they study the source of the problems: the book. That way, they can make informed attempts at solving problems, not ungrounded guesses based on personal opinion.
    ----------


    Now, honestly, Gay-Len, if the analogy didn't sink in, I fear I cannot make it any more plain.

    If anyone else thinks my point does not make sense, feel free to point out you problem with being informed. :)
  3. Gay-LenKenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2000
    star 5
    Again, your analogy testifies to your community. I don't need to understand the dynamic of your board to grasp the concept of "Film Music." No matter which way you look at it, there is no way to justify having a forum specifically for film music ALONE. TV, a much broader subject that would move at a much faster pace and have many, many more visitors doesn't get its own forum. Non-SW films don't have their own discussion forum. The only reason you have to defend having such a narrowly focused is because you like the small community.
  4. Qui Gon Jim23 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2002
    star 5
    To be quite honest, it doesn't appear the mods/AC members are appealing to reason anymore, they're simply out to get the Music Forum.

    Please don't make sweeping accusations like that. They serve no purpose other than to polarize what debate there might be.

    The fact of the matter is most of us are still undecided about the FMH. Bringing up a thought or suggestion for debate in the AC is just that -- an item for debate or discussion. I honestly couldn't care less whether or not there is a FMH. At first glance it appears redundant given the Amphitheatre's focus on the arts, but I would hate to break up anything that has created within it a sense of community -- something that is sorely lacking in other forums.

    That is the primary reason for having the Point of Discussion in each update. We want to make sure that we are properly gauging the desires of our fellow members.
  5. bright sith Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 27, 1999
    star 5
    -------------------------------------------
    "No, that is because the creators of the threads intentionally select vague titles."
    -------------------------------------------

    This becomes a half full or half empty question. You can focus on individual members, but I'll focus on how each forum as a whole influences individual members.

    The truth is, I've long had the fear that this discussion was coming one day. I mentioned this to SotS the day he changed the title of the forum. Look, my central argument throughout this whole debate remains the same--that the quality of posts is too high to disregard. Do I really think that film music should be given a place above other topics? No. But also consider the fact that it was a mod who originally allowed and broadened the Star Wars Music forum's purpose. A straight up question: did other mods oppose at that time? Was it ever discussed? If not, are you going to blame this on SotS' account? Seems irresponsible either way.

    Let me once again state my reasoning, in even more explicit terms. I know there is little reason to have a forum solely dedicated to film music. But this forum evolved into its current situation not only without administration opposition, but with active Mods who supported and transformed it. The result is a forum that has tremendous value and openness. It is good for the JC both in terms of communal feeling and especially quality discussion. It is good for the JC.
  6. Kadue Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 20, 2000
    star 5
    Just to address something you said Sithman about those other forums, who is to say that they are not also going to be looked at, and it was just luck that Music/FHM was the one that came up first?

    Also, of those listed, 6 have sections on TFN, and thus would likely remain for discussion of news posted on those sections, if for nothing else. Another on the list is also being examined at the moment. The other one is less than 6 months old, and was created out of comments from the authors that visit this site to discuss with fans. It had only a few hundred posts until recently when the two newest books were released within two months of each other.

    We didn't just decide "We need to delete a forum to reach our yearly quota, so let's go with Music", there was a discussion in where Music/FMH and moderation/use was brought up, and thus discussion was started on that. There are arguements on both sides of the equation, and thus the AC members decided to see what the general public thought on this issue.
  7. royalguard96 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2001
    star 5
    Dark Lady Mara: Excellent point on the state of the SW Missc. forum. If I may toot my own horn, I started a thread about the most underrated contributors to the SW saga a few weeks ago, and received some terrific responses to the thread. However, it's become buried under all the pointless line-by-line threads and social threads that IMO, are either redundant to the YJCC, or completely useless means to up one's post count. I know the thread I created isn't alone, and I hope this would be addressed.

    I'm with Sithman. Merging the music forum in with amphitheater would be a big mistake. There are plenty of less-active forums that could be merged with one another. The music is one of the separate, but powerful parts of the Star Wars experience, and should be able to stand on its own with the other forums here. Yes I know merging it with Amphitheater was one idea, but IMO, it's one idea that shouldn't see the light of day.
  8. TwiLekJedi Pretty Ex-Mod

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 2001
    star 10
    GayLen: "Having a SW-Music forum made sense, because this is after-all a SW board. But having a film music only board is giving special consideration and treatment to a small group of people."

    So, a forum for discussing 6 soundtracks (and in 3 years 7) is better than a discussion about every and any film score? ?[face_plain]



    "Non-SW films don't have their own discussion forum."

    I thought that was the Amp ?[face_plain]



    QGJ: "I would hate to break up anything that has created within it a sense of community -- something that is sorely lacking in other forums."

    Good point! Thank you



    To repost my main thought from the discussion thread in The Hall:

    How about giving TFMH and the Amphitheatre (and maybe LFL projects, too) an own category?
    would the own category for TFMH, Amp, LFL, etc. be bad or good? I'd imagine if newbies find a category specifically about music and non-SW-films, it would draw more attention to the forums within, as how they are now scattered throughout the JC, having 2 forums with similar content in 2 different categories.
    The Amp evolved out of the YJCC, but is it still so much a part of JC Community as YJCC? I admit I'm rarely in there and never posted, but as far as I can tell, the discussion is very serious and non-social-like - The Amp has more in common with TFMH now than it has with YJCC
    but TFMH definitely does not belong into JC Community, as much as Amp doesn't belong to the SW-movies
    but since they have similarities (hence the redundancy of discussions about scores and composers) they could belong together -> new category



    or leave everything as it is
  9. TenorAprentice Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 2002
    star 4
    I would be more for leave it as it is...

    If you take a look at the threads, even the ones which are about other film music, you will find that it very often does get back to discussing a SW film, or music similar. Not only that, but I too believe that the quality of the discussion is one that can not be ignored. e.g. - I have been to YJCC, and frankly they scare me ;)

    I, like many people in the FMH am a music professional, or have aspirations to go industry. I have attempted to post in the Amphitheater, and if the phrase perfect fifth were ever used, the thread would end with fifty of these guys -> ?[face_plain] What we have in the FMH is a group that can talk music, film music, at a level that your average beck fan would not understand. Yet, these discussions thrive in the FMH. I think that if you did in fact merge the two, you would see a new rivalry be born... instead of bashers vs. gushers, you would see film music lovers vs. music lovers. These are two very different types of people.

    Last, and not least, I think that the FMH should be kept in the SW movies area. When I first came to TFN, I spent about 3 years just reading, and didn't start to post until this past summer. After spending time in many different forums, I found that I loved the movie forums, but the community forums seemed VERY overwhelming. It was through the movie forums that I found the FMH, and if it was in JCC, I would have never found it (and probably wouldn't have stayed around the boards anymore, now that I tend to lose interest in the most of the debates in the movie threads).

    So my question, if the type of community created in the FMH is the kind that you are aspiring to in the other boards, why not learn from it and narrow the boards down to areas where people can really dig into them, and get to know each other? Or, you could just let a good thing ride...

    Please, just leave things be!
  10. itchytasty79 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2001
    star 3
    I agree with BrightSith.

    I oppose the merging of the Film Music Hall and the Amphitheatre strongly. The Music forum, while not the most busiest, is in terms of quality, one of the highest among the JC. Sure, there are redundant threads here and there, but the wealth of information and opinions on film music in general surely surpasses most forums.

    Of course, some are thinking right now that an argument can be made that such discussion could continue in the Amphitheatre. That would be a poor argument. The specificity of the Film Music Hall is its strength. The Amphitheatre gets singificant amount of posts, and film music threads could easily be burried. See the recent James Horner discussion, for instance. The music forum has a core community, and that shouldn't be abandoned so swiftly, either. Whether or not I can convince you, I second Night's idea to post a thread in the Music forum and ask for opinions. I'm confident many will feel as I do.
  11. Lord Bane Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 26, 1999
    star 5
    Since I was one of the main proponents for the splitting (or merging) of the Film Music Hall into other forums, I should make my voice known.

    Last February, Spiderdevil came to me with an idea for reform in Music. He had lurked in there and frankly, did not see much valuable discussion. There was a community (The Music Tavern) and a few active threads about the new AotC score, but aside from that, it was not an active forum or even one fitting the title "Star Wars Music." His idea was to reform it into an Arts and Culture forum, but that idea was hammered down in its infancy by vocal members of the SW Music form and a few anonymous mods.

    Fast forward to the summer. The Amphitheatre is created in June, and a part of its description is as a place to discuss music and film. One would think music from film would also fit in there. The SW Music form also underwent a change around this time (roughly), getting the name "Film Music Hall." It was an odd choice, regardless if it came before or after the Amphitheatre made its debut. You see, discussion on the Amph. had been going on in the ModSquad since February and it was known that film music would be a part of that forum. SW film music would not; that forum would be left to sink or swim.

    Let's continue to move forward to today. The FMH now has around 23,000 posts over the span of at least twenty two months, if not a solid two years. I am not sure of it's exact founding date. That is not a huge amount of posting each month, not to mention it is split between 1,441 threads! That's only 16 posts per thread in a forum that supposedly boasts some of the best discussion around with only a few redundant threads...

    But numbers aside. We could play the numbers game for a long time trying to hammer out if the forum really has proven it should be allowed to survive as is. I could talk of the fifty threads out of the first 100 that have less than 10 posts. I could point out how that must be an indication of the lack of discussion that is taking place there. I could also talk about the only seven threads in the first 100 that are over the century mark for posts. To be fair then, there are 43 threads with posts between 10 and 99. But no, I won't go all out in playing the numbers game.

    The point I see is one of redundancy. The Amphitheatre was created to discuss all music non-Star Wars and if the Film Music Hall was still Star Wars Music, I would have no complaints. However, it has changed, trying to add life to itself by altering why it was even fought for in the first place. It was supposed to be a forum about Star Wars music, where it could be discussed without flame wars and bashers and gushers and without being pushed down under the weight of idiotic posting. Again, I have no problem with a Star Wars music forum on a Star Wars board.

    I do have a problem with a Film Music forum, something so very specific, on a Star Wars board. The Amphitheatre is broad for a reason, so there is no favoritism where media is concerned. Music may deserve a forum, but film music is such a narrow category that it cannot sustain a forum, as is evident if you actually look at the Film Music Hall.

    Gay-len brought up good points. Her posts have been some of the strongest in here, yet I don't think people are responding accurately to them. We must argue here based on the facts presented us, not solely on emotion. Eventually, TPM and AOTC will merge with the Episode III forum to form the PT forum. It will be emotional, perhaps, but it will happen. The time of the Star Wars music forum has long since gone and the Film Music Hall is now redundant, its ideas more than able to survive in the Amphitheatre. Its community can as well - I am not against seeing the Music Tavern in the Amphitheatre.

    RMCOY is going to do his best to find amicable solutions to all of this. The FMH is safe for now because of him. If he hadn't volunteered to moderate in there, there is a good chance by this time next week, the FMH would've been in the Inactive
  12. TwiLekJedi Pretty Ex-Mod

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 2001
    star 10
    end of last year when The Hall was called SW Music there were already enough threads on non-SW-scores - so who cares for the name (which was changed to fit)!?

    If it was not the intended function for that forum, it has clearly become its funtion. Where's the problem in that?

    You say it's becaus it's restricted to only film music. Then enlarge the allowed topics to anything classical.

    But then you'd have even more 10-reply-topics which you don't like. But then again, is that really that bad? One of the loudest complaints about YJCC were, that all the large threads are too intimidating to participate in (for many, not all).

    Again, what is the problem with the small threads? Is it a waste of space if somebody opens a thread about a score and receives 8 replies with 6 person's thoughts - and not a single "I like it, too"-post?

    You also say that it has nothing to do with Star Wars.
    SW music discussion can't take place that well in the movie forums (otherwise Star Wars Music would never even have been created in the first place).
    And a forum for 6 (7 in 2005) soundtracks is not good, either.
    But, of course, you want to allow music discussion - but as we all (music-regulars) think, it would die down very quickly in YJCC or the Amp, if TFMH would be merged.
    Again, what is so bad about a comparatively slower forum? I don't see anything wrong with it, when a good thread is brought up every 2 or 3 days, instead of losing one's grip on the conversation with a pace of 30 posts per hour.

    Another question: Who decided the creation of the Amphitheatre and why did they not think prior to its creation, that it might overlap with an existant forum, being SWM/TFMH? Did they look at the Name "SW Music" and decided there couldn't be anything in there that might clash with the new forum, without looking into it (and thus seeing many non-SW-threads). The timing of June may have been unlucky, because, of course there were many AotC-threads; but the forum has more than 2 pages.

    The redundancy between Music and Amp is not Music's fault.



    as for the numbers... YJCC is quite a funny forum when you look at numbers. Either the threads explode into the hundreds of posts, or die after 3 to 5 pages or after a few posts. But it's still a good forum.


    and again (since it has been ignored the first time): when it doesn't fit entirely to the SW-movie-category, put it into a new one, along with Amp.



    And.... Film Music is a narrow category? LFL Projects is a narrow category! John Williams alone does 5 times more than all of LFL!



    I may have misunderstood some things, I admit, but I'd find it nice to see my questions answered.
  13. RidingMyCarousel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 20, 2002
    star 6
    I'll be working on the issue with you Film Music Hall regulars over the next few weeks, one step at a time on the issue, just so everyone knows.

    :)
  14. TwiLekJedi Pretty Ex-Mod

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 2001
    star 10
    and for that we're most thankful *bows*
  15. Lord Bane Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 26, 1999
    star 5
    LFL Projects is under intense scrutiny right now as well as the Film Music Hall.

    "SW music discussion can't take place that well in the movie forums (otherwise Star Wars Music would never even have been created in the first place)."

    I think that, in the possible retooling of SW Misc -> the Saga Forum, SW music could be moved there. The non-SW music topics could go to the Amph (if the content warranted) and the rest would sink or swim in the YJCC, though to be fair, little or no threads that have life in the FMH would be outside of either the Saga Forum or the Amph.

    "But, of course, you want to allow music discussion - but as we all (music-regulars) think, it would die down very quickly in YJCC or the Amp, if TFMH would be merged."

    The Amph moves slow enough that the threads you want would not sink, especially with the dedication you music regulars would bring.

    Classical music is not being taken out of the Amphitheatre; that is one of the cornerstones of the place.


  16. TwiLekJedi Pretty Ex-Mod

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 2001
    star 10
    Why is your post a third of the length of my post? Did I squabble too much?



    "LFL Projects is under intense scrutiny right now as well as the Film Music Hall"

    I know.
    That's good, too - it needs that.



    "The non-SW music topics could go to the Amph (if the content warranted)"

    I hope I get that right, but would that mean that a thread without a well-thought-out opening post would get closed and redirected to YJCC? Because I think threads like the two big LotR-score-threads would get redirected to YJCC - the worst place of all for them. They would sink, no matter how good they might be. And the existing ones are good and were and will be successful.



    "The Amph moves slow enough that the threads you want would not sink, especially with the dedication you music regulars would bring."

    Us music regulars would have problems fitting into the Amp. community

    they'd sink despite our dedication, because us music regulars are a rather slow bunch, as we all know by now...



    ... I think you skipped a point or two from my previous reply ... ?[face_plain]
  17. RidingMyCarousel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 20, 2002
    star 6
    Us music regulars would have problems fitting into the Amp. community
    The two communities are a lot alike -- small, friendly and welcoming :)

    They'd sink despite our dedication, because us music regulars are a rather slow bunch, as we all know by now...
    If you guys were to post as often in the Amphitheatre as you did in the FMH, they wouldn't sink past the 2nd page -- I promise you that. :)

    And to my knowledge, if non-SW music was taken from the FMH, nothing would go to the YJCC.
  18. TwiLekJedi Pretty Ex-Mod

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 2001
    star 10
    have you been copying out of my reply-window!? that was QUICK! :D



    okay... how about this: IF the decision of merging TFMH with Amp. and something else (!?) would be made, you colorful guys make TFMH inactive and test it out for ... some time.

    If we don't like it, we start a petition to re-open TFMH
    opening that forum via petition worked once, so why not twice



    hey, music-people - stop me if you think I'm going insane
  19. RidingMyCarousel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 20, 2002
    star 6
    TJ -- That is what would happen if they would be merged. I wouldn't have it any other way.
  20. TwiLekJedi Pretty Ex-Mod

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 2001
    star 10
  21. RidingMyCarousel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 20, 2002
    star 6
    If the two were to merge, the Film Music Hall would be placed in the Inactive forums category. We would carefully move threads over and allow you guys to rebuild to the best you could. And if it didn't work out, your voices would be heard. :)
  22. Lord Bane Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 26, 1999
    star 5
    FMH would become and inactive, though read-only, forum. It would still be around, but you couldn't post to it. If the merger didn't go as planned, if for some reason the Amph experienced a huge surge of posting and all music topics were to sink, then a movement could be started to reopen Music. Of course, we could also go through there while it was closed off and delete the redundant threads, the few posts ones that have no real discussion, so if you came back to it, the chaff would be separated, so to speak.


    My post was not as long as yours because I don't include such...energetic spacing. ;)
  23. TwiLekJedi Pretty Ex-Mod

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 2001
    star 10
    Okay. I read that bit where somebody said TFMH would become Inactive, that's why I brought it up.
  24. Darth_Dagsy Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2000
    star 6
    Lord Bane
    I think that, in the possible retooling of SW Misc -> the Saga Forum, SW music could be moved there.

    Thats an idea....I like including the music as a part of the saga forum. It would be right at home there, plus it would mean an influx of regular members into said forum.
  25. bright sith Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 27, 1999
    star 5
    I asked this in my previous post, and it's a straight question, so I'll ask it again. What was the response when the Star Wars Music forum was changed into the Film Music Hall? Did you guys discuss it?
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