After declaration of the Pellaeon-Gavrisom Treaty

Since they were filled with treasonous terrorists and their weaponry, of course.

 

Innocent until proven guilty. It was common knowledge that there was no military presence on Alderaan, and that they were not a weaponized state in any way.

 

They're not that bad. I mean the New Republic only blew up like one planet.

 

The Emperor had already judged them guilty, and in the Empire, the Emperor's will is law. Just as in centuries past Kings held court before their thrones to decide justice, so to did the Emperor pass judgment upon the seditionist rabble of Alderaan. That is the law of the Galactic Empire. Besides, there is no international court in Star Wars, nor have the interactions of international, or in this case, interplanetary politics ever been decided by the judiciary. I'm pretty sure no one found Hitler guilty of any crime before declaring war on Germany during WWII.

Which is nonsense, because we know from the EU that Bail was doing everything he could to funnel weapons to the Rebel Alliance, Leia's ship sure seemed to have plenty of armed Alderaanian personnel onboard & I'm pretty sure they were planning to retrieve arms which were stored upon Alderaan's old mothballed fleet.

 

So the whole planet deserved to die? What you're saying is "a few bad appled spoils the bunch." Which then proves that the entire Empire did deserve to go down, because of the evil actions of the "few" at the top.

The Emperor's entire power-base was won on treachery, fraud, and treason. He was the one behind the credits mysteriously ending up in Vollorum's accounts, then just as mysteriously disappearing in order to discredit him so there could be a vote of no-confidence. He was the one behind the blockade of Naboo so that when said vote of no-confidence did happen, he would get a "strong sympathy vote" to elect him the new Supreme Chancellor. He was the one pulling the strings, creating the Seperatist-crisis and bribing (not necessarily through monetary means) the senators to give him more power, and to keep him in office long after his term was done. He was the one that created a war against the Republic in order to get himself even more unchecked powers.

 

Wait, wait, wait... Palpatine didn't order Alderaan's destruction: Tarkin did. And he was plotting to use the Death Star to take out Palpatine by destroying Coruscant.

"It's hard to reach for the moral high ground when we're all standing in the mud."

 

Palpatine did order its design and construction with the intended use being exactly that, though. He also appointed Tarkin to oversee the said contruction, and finalization of the battle station. And gave him the authority to use it for such a purpose.

 

And Palpatine was cursing Tarkin to his grave for destroying an entire planet.

He was the one who had the Death Star green-lighted and bank-rolled since the beginning of his Empire. Of course Palps was going to use it at some point, Tarkin just stole his thunder and used it first.

 

It is not my intention to derail this thread into a tangential topic, but the amount of ignorance present in this board regarding the status and activities of Alderaan prior to its destruction is frankly shocking, and requires urgent remedying.

Alderaan was a founding member of the Alliance to Restore the Republic, an illegal insurrectionist organization aimed at overthrowing the legitimate galactic government. It was also a signatory of the Corellian Treaty, the foundational document of the Alliance to Restore the Republic, called an ?official declaration of rebellion? (The Force Unleashed novelization), which ?vowed to overturn the Empire?. Alderaan had also ratified the so-called ?Declaration of Rebellion?, which claimed the ?the unalienable right to abolish it [the Empire] from the galaxy? and bring about ?the destruction of the Galactic Empire? (Rebel Alliance Sourcebook).

Its leader, HSH the Prince Bail Organa, had pledged to personally provide funding for the insurrectionist cause (Force Unleashed novelization), and Alderaan?s senatorial representative, the Princess Leia Organa, was engaged in providing aid to rebel insurgents (Empire: Princess?Warrior) and in the theft of Imperial military secrets (A New Hope).

Contrary to its pacifistic façade, Alderaan possessed defense systems ?as strong as any in the Empire (A New Hope novelization), and was the ?main source of munitions? for the rebel Alliance (A New Hope novelization), also provided gunships and other warships to the insurrectionist fleet (Return of the Jedi novelization). Prior to its destruction, Alderaan had been engaged in open rebellion against the Galactic Empire for two years, and had provided funds, munitions, warships and personnel to the rebel Alliance cause.

 

And what about Caamas? They weren't engaging in rebellion (in fact, they never did, even after the Empire turned their home into an irradiated wasteland).

 

Yeah, roleplaying is fun

And sources about Alderaan are mixed, not definitive. One could point to a lot of sources that show Alderaan as a peace loving, hobbit like world, both OU and IU. There are also sources pointing to their military assets(while they were Republic memebers fighting the Seperatists no less).

 

Getting rid of the Sith Emperor was probably a good start in helping the Empire function as it was meant to (at least in the belief of the true believers in the need for a benevolent galactic Empire). Just that I don't think that having a Sith leading it was necessarily a good thing. Pallaeon seems to do a good job of it. Though even he acknowledges that the NR has managed to rule the galaxy with a lot less bloodshed...

Furthermore, wasn't the Empire engaging in slavery? [Rebel Dawn by Ann Crispin]

 

Bah, I just wanted a verbal tic, like McEwok and his calling jedi wizards....

Whatever though. I am not actually a rebel though, I just do what my employers want me to.

I'm not in this for you Empire, Admiral, I'm in it for the credits. I expect to be well payed.

 

Here's my question: What's the actual name of the treaty that ended the First Galactic Civil War? Bastion Accords? Chimaera Accords? Pellaeon-Gavrisom Treaty? Has this ever been explicitly nailed down?

 

How anyone can claim the Empire was a "legitimate" government is beyond me. How many laws was Palpatine breaking en route to his rise to power and subsequent creation of said Empire?

He, along with Wilhuf Tarkin, set up the murder of the Trade Federation Directorate, so as to put his puppet Viceroy Nute Gunray into the top position of the Organization.

He would then funnel untold millions of credits into the accounts of Finius Valorum (the then Supreme Chancellor) that were thought to have been stolen through the Bank of Aargau (a subsidiary of the InterGalactic Banking Clan, hmm fancy that) so that a political enemy of Valorum's could discover it in order to discredit him, and weaken his political power base further. Some time after having Valorum ousted from power, he would also have him assassinated.

He ordered the deaths of untold numbers of people, including two Jedi Knights sent to reach a peaceful settlement between the Naboo and the Trade Federation.
He ordered the illegal invasion and occupation of Naboo.

After the vote of no-confidence in Valorum, and his own nomination to succeed him. Palpatine had a group of Sith mercenaries (the Thyrsian Sun Guard) to assassinate a number of Senators that could be the swing vote(s) in his bid for the Supreme Chacellorship.

He helped to create the Outbound Flight project. Only to have it destroyed, killing untold thousand of people. Along with many Jedi.

He had the Separatist Movement created so as to maneuver key members of the Senate to grant him an indefinite extra term in office.

He had a Clone Army of the Republic created in secret, without approval of the Senate. At the time he had no emergency powers of any kind to do so.

He himself created the means for the Clone Wars to happen. Overseeing the war from both sides. He waged war against the Republic in which he was the elected leader. This itself is a high treason.

When approached by members of the Jedi High Council and told he was under arrest, he was the aggressor, and attacked them. The Jedi fought him there only in self-defense. Windu's decision to kill him was no different than any officer of the peace deciding to kill a suspect that refused to allow themselves to be taken into custody.

Fraud, murder, conspiracy to commit murder, treason. These are only some of Palpatine's crimes. He easily, if taken into custody, could've been charged with attempting to destabilize the State. There was more than enough evidence that the "second Sith" was behind much of this. Then, with the realization that he was, in fact, the aforementioned "second Sith", there was more than enough to prove he was guilty of said crimes. The only problem would be finding someone in the courts that would side with those that opposed Palpatine in this. Without getting killed.

But, like Yoda said, the Jedi (as well as those that favored peace and democracy at large) lost before the battle ever started.

I already know you Imperial Loyalists will refuse to see any view point past your own, but for those a little more open to see the truth behind Palpatine and his "legitimate governemt", well here you go.

 

Um, I can only speak to personal experience as a military policeman, but killing suspects when death or serious bodily harm is not reasonably feared is murder. I'm pretty certain that civilian law enforcement operates the same way.

I'm not refuting the whole of your post based on this. I'm just pointing out that the scenario you posit is unethical, illegal, and completely unrepresentative of the manner in which law enforcement officers legitimately conduct themselves. If a suspect is no longer resisting, proportional response demands that you conduct yourself accordingly. Summary executions cannot be handed down against persons that resist arrest.

 

AFAIK, when an officer feels his life is in immediate danger, and that there is no alternative, killing the suspect is legal. Palpatine, using Force Lightning, gave Windu absolutely no choice but to try and kill him.

 

But to answer your earlier question that seems to have been passed over

I think the official name is actually the Pellaeon-Gavrisom Treaty. With the Bastion Accords being another name for which it is known.

 

No, what I'm saying is that once your planetary government has gone into rebellion against the legal rule of the Empire, collateral loss of life is inevitable. In WWII the Allies killed hundreds of thousands of German & Japanese civilians with their bombing raids. This doesn't make them evil, it's just the nature of war. Kill or be killed. I'd rather see the few innocents of Alderaan killed than the death of hundreds of thousands of loyal citizens of the Empire who'd have to be sacrificed to bring the world to heel. Why should the Empire have to send it's sons and daughters to die to save the ungrateful inhabitants of Alderaan?

Which in no way invalidates the legitimacy of the Empire's formation by the vote of the Republic Senate.

There could have been a vote of no-confidence if Valorum stubbed his toe. There's really no requirement for calling for a vote of no confidence, someone simply calls for it, someone seconds it, and a vote is held. All of that was entirely legal. It's not a conviction of Valorum of any crime, it's just politics.

Actually, that was the Trade Federation. Palpatine simply suggested it. I could say "Go leap off a bridge". Does that mean you should do it? Does that make me responsible if you do?

The Separatists were already manipulating their way out of the Republic tearing it apart from within. All Palpatine did was suggest that they come together, the easier to find and destroy them, all for the good of the Republic.

They kept voting to extend his term, until he was elected Emperor for life. I really doubt you have any evidence that he "bribed" the vast majority of the Imperial Senate.

The Separatists were going to break away from the Republic anyway, potentially destroying the Republic in the process, because the individual planetary representatives were too corrupt and self-important to stop the major corporations like the Trade Federation from doing whatever they wanted. Without Palpatine, the Republic would have disintegrated into dozens of little corporate fiefdoms run by corrupt plutocrats. I think tricking the enemies of the Republic into revealing themselves and attacking first shows his brilliance, and was his duty as Supreme Chancellor of the Republic.

 

The Empire had not actively declared war on (or had war declared on them by) Alderaan itself. Who says they had to invade? They seemed to know who the people were in the Rebellion. They could've easily been arrested and detained for suspected crimes against the Empire. Since they were citizens of it. It's more like if the US had bombed/nuked one of the southern states during the American Civil War. And if they couldn't easily get on the planet to detain those high officials of Alderaan, blockading it until they gave themselves up was another viable option. And to say "a few" when mentioning the innocents killed on the planet, then to use the phrase "hundreds of thousands" (and it's not like the Empire has ever been against looking at and using their troops as nothing more than cannon fodder) is misleading. So because a few of the leaders of the planet may or may not actively be a part of the Rebellion, the entire populace is actively undermining them (or enough are to warrant killing everyone)?

Ah, but such a vote was only possible through the destabalization of the government that Palpatine himself had created. If the evidence of such destabalization was brought to light, he never would've had a sufficient enough votes to give him absolute power like that.

This is true, I did not intend to make it look like I was arguing that the vote was brought about simply because of the monetary issues. I meant it as another example of Palpatine using fraud (or some other method) simply to destabalize the government.

It was a partnership of a sorts. The Trade Federation leadership did as Sidious asked, and he would help pass favorable legislation to let them do as they saw fit. Was he not behind the bill that allowed them to create their armies in the first place?

Palpatine was actively creating the "need

 

No...the New Republic become increasingly "grey" in it's "good guy" status...until by the time you reach Star by Star, you are beginning them to kill the thing and start over.

And then they replace it with an even more morally ambivalent government, that appoints a barely-sane genocidal she-wolf whose damage to things both inside and outside the universe has yet to be revealled.

with all that happening...believe it or not...the Imperials are incredibly consistent by comparison. How they are "good" or "bad" is entirely from the necessary point of view of our heroes when they are looking for help...cause they can't always find it at home.

 

Like I said, the Sith are the true enemies of the Empire... and the Republic for that matter.

As for Caamas, they were destroyed for failing to give the Empire a reason to destroy them.

 

Perhaps you did not read the evidence presented in my previous post ?

 

QFT.

This is a remarkably succinct post, and provides for a much better summary than my longwided history lesson. Well said, sir. I award you a Spiffy Crown of Brevity (TM).

I would disagree. If an arresting officer defends himself against an attacker who then ceases resisting, deadly force is no longer authorized. In this specific case, had Mace Windu killed Palpatine during the course of mutual combat while acting in self defense while exercising the power of arrest, he'd be completely in the clear. But he disarmed Palpatine, considered arresting him, rejected the idea, and declared that he was too dangerous to be kept alive, which is probably attempted second-dgree homicide. Legally, it's dubious. Morally, I think Palpatine had it coming--some folks need killing in my experience. But if a case against Mace Windu were to go to trial, you've got all sorts of legal problems. Not the least of which is an eyewitness who explicitly reminded Windu that Palpatine was effectively a prisoner and needed to stand trial.

Ah, thank you. I don't have anything handy besides The Essential Atlas, which--in my skimming--didn't provide an explicity name.