After re-reading Betrayal I sum up my feelings for Jacen

Is it so supising that war and brainwashing eventually made him become a diffrent person?

You have to factor in the Dark Side. It's not ALL Jacen. He's fallen, and we have seen plenty of examples of people being diffrent after they fell.

That kid who loved animals is still in there somewhere; he is just buried, possibly deeper than Anakin was in Vader.


Anakin Skywalker anyone? Happy little kid who risked his life in a Podrace to help people he had never even met before. Qui-Gon himself even said it; he gave without thought of reward. You could argue he enjoyed it, but that still doesnt stop it from being a good deed. He went to the trouble of making Padme her necklace, and leaving his mother behind in slavery obviously haunted him.

Fast forward a few years, he is a fairly arrogant Padawan; but then, it isnt just words, he can usually back it up. He looks out for his friends, and he is also an honorable Jedi trainee who looks out for his allies and has a strong conviction of good. Unfortuantly his ego is getting stroked by Palps.

Anakin, Jedi Knight. He's a great Warrior, and a Good Friend, in Obi-Wan's words. He saves countless other Jedi from death, and as Vader does he never expects his troops to do things he wouldnt. I'll always remember the bar crawl with him and Obi-Wan, always makes me grin. We get our last few peeks of this good man at the beggining of RotS; refusing to think of the mission and trying to save Obi-Wan from the Buzzdroids, and after killing Dooku refusing to leave Obi-Wan behind, and in the book reflecting that at that moment he didnt like Palpatine very much.

A good man, and a great Jedi Knight.

He later pretty much decimated the Jedi Temple, slaughtering many Jedi and the younglings personally. He strangles his beloved Padme, the woman he had been willing to do anything for, in a fit of dark side rage. Then he goes on the try and kill his Master.
Over the next 18 years he leads the effort to clense the Galaxy of Jedi and commits various ther heinous acts.

Rather than Vader, are we going to start calling him AINO? Or Anakin VINO? People's personalites do a 180 more often than not when they fall to the Darkside.

Okay, Jacen was once a good man; whats so terrible from a storytelling standpoint that the loss of various friends and family members, going through intense torture, brainwashing by the Chicken, and his whole view on the force being confused eventually wearing him down and turning him to the Darkside? He resisted long than most.

Just because he didnt turn out how many wished he would doesnt mean the story is being badly told; the hero of the NJO died with Anakin Solo. Ben Skywalker is our only hope, and i hope he comes through for us

Still, LotF isnt my favorite series, but not because i dont like how Jacen fell.

 

Exactly. He slowly morphed from an arrogant pacifist in the early NJO to an arrogant authoritarian in LotF. The arrogance was always there.

 

Yeah, pretty much anyone who saw the seeds in YJK I'd have to call shenanigans on but very early-NJO is quite plausible, which is a lot of peoples' complaints about the complete character shift from YJK-to-NJO.

The whole "Jaina resents her mother" thing was far, far worse though.

 

Yeah, but you're wrong. He wisened up a lot, too. All this potential for evil from the beginning is basically misinterpretation, trying to fit JINO back into YJK-real Jacen. It doesn't fit because it's a square peg into a round hole.

 

wow.

One look at this thread gives me all the more belief that this guy is toast in Invincible.

They will serve him up to the masses crying for justice (blood).

Whether it's because he's pure evil or just a trainwreck of prose...his continued existence jeopardizes too much for him to stick around.

I want the first post-LOTF book to be a Jaina story written by Zahn...detailing her coming to terms with the loss of Jacen...all while very tongue-in-cheek pointing out how 2 of the EU's earliest treasures (Mara, Jacen...both Zahn creations) have been lost to the modern time.

Oh it will be sweet.

 

Jacen is a dead man. There is no way Del Rey can let this clown live on. I don't want to see him escape, and I will never forgive him so redemption is out.

Remember, Jacen is using logic to justify his actions, DR is making it a point, Betrayal especially, to show that Lumiya did NOT use the Force to influence, brainwash or seduce Jacen in any way. It is a concious choice made free of emotion.

He CHOSE to be evil. HE chose it folks, so how can you say your sorry and wish you did not do a thing when all the evidence during that time tells you to do the deed.

Anakin Skywalker? Forgivable, he got mind raped by Palpatine, and betrayed by the Jedi, he dind't know where to go. Even as Vader he was trying to make up past mistakes but it all went to ash when he applied the Force to it. So his redemption was understandable.

But what I think will happen is that Jacen will be stripped of the Force. Permanently. This is something that the books have not touched on.

 

Well said, Jacen ! You hit the nail right on the head.

 

Exactly. He slowly morphed from an arrogant pacifist in the early NJO to an arrogant authoritarian in LotF. The arrogance was always there.[/quote]

And the clincher was that Luke & Vegere both made the same mistake, telling him to his face emphisising his special destiny repeatedly. The OJO made the same mistake with Anikan Skywalker.

 

Okay, let's compare Jacen to JINO and see what happens.

Jacen: Didn't kill the World Brain in Traitor but instead made it a friend which made things on Vong-formed Coruscant go a little bit pear-shaped. This is actually the best way to tackle an enemy, turn them into an ally.
JINO: Would have either killed the World Brain or made it kill the Vong slowly and painfully. He probably would not have bothered to save all those people either.

Jacen: Gave Ganner the choice of how to use Anakin's lightsaber (I think he asked him if he wanted to save himself but Ganner chose self-sacrifice instead) so that Jacen could get to the World Brain.
JINO: Would have made Ganner do what he told him, probably through some form of Force-persuasion despite the fact that Ganner was a Jedi as well.

Jacen: Pretended to join Nom Anor so he could get to the World Brain.
JINO: Would have pretended to join Nom Anor so he could destroy the Vong.

Now let's look at the flip side, what JINO did and what Jacen would have done.

JINO: Started a war to prevent another war and seriosuly pissed off his twin sister though his manipulation.
Jacen: Would have found some middle way to stop the war without agression or perhaps even direct intervention.

JINO: Erased Ben Skywalker's memory to prevent him from revealing details about Allana.
Jacen: Perhaps would have impressed upon Ben the need to keep Allana's identity a secret. That kid probably was taught by Mara how to keep his mouth shut and if Ben actually "squealed" it may have been a way for everyone to find out who Allana's father was.

JINO: Gave Ta'a Chume a cerebral haemorrage as a result of his interrogation about the assassins who tried to kill Allana.
Jacen: Would have found a different way to extract the information, perhaops not even from Ta'a Chume herself.

JINO: Engaged in a pre-emptive strike against the Correlians as part of Operation Roundabout.
Jacen: Even though Luke is as much to blame for this as he is, wouldn probably have found some different way that did not involve unprovoled agression.

JINO: Killing Nelani Dinn because of what might happen in the future if he didn't.
Jacen: Jacen knows that the future is 'always' in motion and there was no real reason to kill Nelani just then.

And finally.

JINO: Listened to Lumiya and believed everything she told him without question.
Jacen: Doubted and asked questions about Lumiya, repeating Jedi-stuff and probably would have told her to bugger off a a number of times.

And FTR, Jacen did not fall to the dark side in Betrayal until he kills Nelani. That is what starts the turn. Everything else prior to that is just him being JINO.

 

Okay, let's compare Jacen to JINO and see what happens.


Yes, let's do that....

Anakin: Would help the Ghostlings get free of slavery.

Darth Vader: Would round up the Ghostlings for mining on Kessel.

***

Anakin: Would help Qui Gon Jinn get off Tatooine.

Darth Vader: Would kill Qui Gon Jinn and take the Queen to Darth Sidious.

***

Anakin: Would help protect the Potenium followers from Tarkin.

Darth Vader: Would murder them and take the planet for himself to produce a legion of starfighters to conquer the universe.

***

Anakin: Would fight to free Obi Wan Kenobi.

Darth Vader: Would take his ringside seat at the Arena.

***

Anakin: Would help the Novun Warriors revolt against the Techno Union.

Darth Vader: Would have the rest rounded up to be turned into monsters.

***

Darth Vader: Would stand aside to let Tarkin blow up Alderaan.

Anakin: Would cut Tarkin in half with his lightsaber, help Leia down to the docking bay through 2000 stormtroopers, then turn around his starfighter to blow up the Death Star.

***

Darth Vader: Would torture Han Solo to get Luke Skywalker to come.

Anakin: Would challenge this 'Luke' person to a starfighter duel then when they crashed down would have a badass lightsaber duel with him.

***

So whose with me.....

Darth Vader is AINO!

 

Except that Anakin/Vader is a much better character. (The whole well written, iconic, deep, tragic, modern mythological character that struck a chord in movie goers in 1977 that lasts until this day vs.... Jedi Solo Twin #2 of the male variety).

 

Yeah, but the difference is that Darth Vader is...well, Darth Vader.

Caedus is just...Caedus.

 

Actually Jacen fell to the dark side during his 5-year journey, and completed the transformation in Dark Nest when he turned whats her name into a vegtable. I remember the page about his journey where Jaina sences him through their twin bond changing into something she didn't like and the bran hemmerage thing...only a dark sider would do such a thing so quickly without consdiering another option like the fact that JEDI ARE ALLOWED TO HAVE KIDS NOW. Sheesh the ONLY bad thing that would have come of the galaxy discovering who ALlana's dad really is is that Tenel Ka would have to resign as queen in disgrace, Luke would be dissapointed but accept all 3 back into the jedi order without question. That's about it.

I'll admit I never enjoyed Jacen as a character, ever, but I do see where people are coming from with the change in personality. The NJO jacen would never act like he did in dark nest & LOTF. With Anikan/ Vader it made sence because we saw his motivations & change which began with his mother "I followed the jedi way and she died...maybe they're wrong...no wonder the galaxy is a mess with these clowns in charge" & ended with Obi-wans lightsaber turning Anikan into a paraplegic. With Jacen we don't. Instead of a novel about his 5 year journey where he becomes a dark jedi we only get a page or two. Make that missing novel about his journey and maybe people will sotp hating on this series and 'jino' so much.

 

well, yes. though i do have to wonder how we'd view Caedus/JINO/Jacen if we met Caedus at his best first like we did Vader instead of the goofy kid/arrogant teen first like we did Jacen.

but that doesn't change the fact that just because the kid from YJK, or the teen from VP-SbS would never do something doesn't mean that he wouldn't as an adult, Sith or not. the point is that people do change as they grow up, and they also change in SW when they touch the Dark Side.

 

The key is that the change is gradual and doesn't "jump the shark" like Jacen's turn did.

People attributing Jacen's turn to the dark side to Vergere? Who'd a thunk it just after TUF was published? I remember people were disputing if jacen would turn to the dark side at all.

 

Maybe we'll have a whole "Anakin retcon" with Caedus. You know, where Anakin's depictions in the EU aren't whiny ***** on the verge of a psychotic break but that he's actually the deep, meaningful, good man that Obi Wan thinks he is.

We'll instead see Caedus as the brilliant Machivaellian plotter that is equally a psychotic murderer and misogynist with power equal to Darth Vader.

 

I'd rather not, thanks. You want me to forget the whole NJO so quickly?

 

No matter how many retcons there are, I sincerely doubt we'll ever see Caedus as brilliant schemer. In fact we should start a betting pool to see how long his machinations last without Lumiya to keep him on task.

 

I confess, it dimishes Palpatine that Krayt took over the galaxy but not THAT much.

It diminishes them BOTH that Jacen pulled it off.

Poor Revan and Malak never got close.

 

Jacen Solo: Getting the bar that much lower.

 

All this **** reminds me of a little quote from PotC I:

Commodore Norrington: One good deed is not enough to redeem a man of a lifetime of wickedness

Jack Sparrow: Though it seems enough to coddemn him...



Though it doesn't directly apply it does so to a more terrible extreme. Luke in his career defeated many a bad guy right? And arguably freed the galaxy of an oppressor (Though it was Vader as much as Luke). Now I've read all the novels except the *Tales* short story collections. Luke Skywalker defeats a great many threats but let me put something into perspective here: Jacen didn't just defeat some bad guys here and there, *NO* through his befriending the World Brain, through his coming back at the turn of the tide to give the New Republic a morale raiser, through his saving Vergere and himself and spreading the tale of Zonoma Sekot, and through his defeat of Onimi the true Supreme Overlord he didn't save the galaxy... no he allowed the galaxy as we cherish it, a place not so much unlike our own earth just grander and more complex (in a storytelling sense)to continue.

THE GFFA exists because of Jacen Solo...

Lets do a *-* Jacen Solo... lets say Jacen Solo dies in Traitor as does Vergere.

Ok now we have = a galaxy enslaved by the Yuuzhan Vong (cause Luke would never have allowed that virus thing to be used). In comparison Palpatine's Reign was a goodamn democracy in the Greek Sense. Jedi have been wiped out. The former people of the New Republic are running around with slave seeds or indoctrinated in the True Way, horrificaly deformed worshipping the three gifts of the true gods: 1. Life (which is a lie) 2. Pain and 3. Death... Well don't we have a merry happy little galaxy!

BUT OMG JACEN IS A SITH NOW SO LETS HOPE HE DIES CAUSE HE DOESNT DESERVE TO BE REDEEMED... he only allowed the galaxy as we know it to continue...

 

Yeah, but he's evil now. The bad guy. Would you forgive a mass murderer for his crimes just because he killed another mass murderer prior to going bad?

Edit: To put it another way, you wouldn't pardon Jeffery Dahmer simply because the first person he ate was John Wayne Gacy.

 

HA! Thats hypocracy... Everyone wants to forgive Vader and he murdered masses... but thats what storytelling is all about. Jacen has commited many crimes though still less than Vader but he can't be redeemed but Vader can. Well then Star Wars is just a bunch of ********... but luckily you are wrong. In Star Wars redemption is ever present and can always be brought about. It's my firm belief that Jacen can be redeemed cause that's what Star Wars is in my opinion. The Dark in conflict with the Light over the souls of heroes.

But personally I like what Jacen has become and I hope to see him grow into a powerful established Sith and he is already showing promise... (of course people will try and argue that but Jacen is capable of more in the force than any before or after him that have yet been mentioned. if you doubt that look at his fight with Onimi in TUF.)

That word is not allowed.

 

BUT OMG JACEN IS A SITH NOW SO LETS HOPE HE DIES CAUSE HE DOESNT DESERVE TO BE REDEEMED... he only allowed the galaxy as we know it to continue...

Jacen Solo is a great hero.

However, he also murdered another great hero.

And a lesser hero.

And another lesser hero.

Arrested the man who lead the government who saved the galaxy.

And frankly, he killed Omni.

That's different than Darth Revan or Luke.

 

I don't. I see him as a monster who, while seeing the error of his ways and making one final good decision, still only accomplished what amounts to a drop in the bucket. As far as I'm concerned, he deserved getting elctrocuted and more.