After the PT, does Han's skepticism just seem ignorant?

First, I must admit that I am a die hard Star Wars, 1977 kind of guy. I plead giulty as charged to this. But part of my reason for this point of view is that I loved how the Force was shown in that film and I think its amplification in the sequels and prequels hurt it--I prefered the subtlty and ambiguity of it all in the original Star Wars (and that is why I am refusing to call it "ANH" here, I am talking about the film independant of the saga versus how it fits into the saga).

In the original Star Wars, you will remember when Ben is training Luke in the ways of the force with his father's lightsaber and the "remote", Han expresses disbelief in the Force. This made perfect sense in the context of the film at the time. The Force was subtle; we had seen Kenobi fool the Stormtroopers with the "mind trick" and Luke do battle with a remote with a "blast shield" down. We had previously seen Vader cause an imperial officer to choke. All of these things could be ascribed to psychology/hypnosis or luck. Later in the film we see Luke hit the reactor shaft vent without a combat computer and hear Ben's voice after he died. The only irrefutable evidence that it is real that we see is Ben's dissappearance when Vader cuts him down with the lightsaber, and even Vader himself doesn't understand this, so even a former Jedi Knight (which we know Vader was from Ben's telling this to Luke) is unaware of this aspect of Force use. So Han's skepticism is justified and understandable--there is no "proof" that the Force exists: it can be seen as a philosophy or religion (indeed, Tarkin calls it a religion when talking to Vader).

Now looking at Star Wars as "ANH" in the context of the saga, Han sort of seems like an ignorant retard. A mere 20 years earlier the Jedi were running around the galaxy doing all kinds of amazing deeds, publicly using superpowers, etc. I mean in all of Han's visits to cantinas and bars, hadn't he ever talked to some one over 50? I just don't find his skepticism convincing in the context of the saga; it makes him come across as a fool rather than a skeptic.

What do others think?

 

I slightly believe that Han was jelous because Luke was being told all these great things about the force by Ben. However, Han's sitting there,typical smuggler with a blaster in his holster. His ignorance probably comes from the jedi being killed. Maybe a reason he says that the force is scrap compared to a good blaster at your side.

The jedi had the force, and look how it helped them. However, Han has a blaster and a ship and up until the movie he's survived everything thrown at him.

 

I'm sure what Han says is essentially what Palpatine's dictatorship would have taught (brainwashed) kids into believing all over the galaxy. To make sure The Jedi never came back, I bet the smear campaign against the Jedi continued long after the events of ROTS. I bet Palpy would even have given government grants to "Scientists" to disprove the theory of force and midiclorians, etc....

 

The midichlorians aspect makes disbelief in the force even more dubious to me. Wouldn't any biologist know about them? They show up under a microscope, right? Like mitochondia. So any medical droid would know about them, any doctor, any scientist, etc. And Palpatine didn't kill everyone who had ever seen a Jedi. He might have convinced everyone the Jedi were evil, but he would have a hard time saying the Force didn't exist; too many people would have seen it in action.

 

Well, Midi's can exist, but thats a differant thing altogether to saying they can communicate the will of this all poweful force to people. Maybe "science" proved that Midi's don't really do anything?

 

Han's issue is that he never met a Jedi during the Clone Wars era. He only had the old stories that he heard from the occassional pilot who was around during the heyday of the Jedi. And once Palpatine's propaganda machine went into full swing, the Jedi were discredited even further. He only changes when Luke winds up being the factor in his rescue, even if he didn't see all of it.

 

I'd also assume that after Order 66 where mere Clonetroopers massacred their Jedi commanders, people would begin to doubt whether what they'd heard about the Jedi was true, which is something that would be futhered by all of the Imperial propoganda.

 

Good question.

I think that probably even in their heyday, the jedi were perceived by many members of the public as a kick arse bunch of robe wearing diplomats. The spiritual / mystical side of it was probably not out there on display that much. Add to that the passing of twenty years (and Han was what, 33, in ANH) and the propaganda pumped out over that period by the Empire, and you'd have a fair bit of doubt out there about the Jedi, the Force and certainly a fair bit of doubt about it's power.

Also, Han was a bit ignorant in ANH wasn't he. Pretty cocky, pretty sure of himself, pretty set in his ways.

I agree, that the subtle mystery of the the OT Force was pretty appealing.

 

I don't really think it's ignorant, the Jedi were gone and any real idea of the force has left with them, the Sith weren't flaunting their force abilities for the general public to see. However, the inclusion of the idea of Midi-Chlorians by Lucas in the PT does majorly screw up that way of thinking, I mean if they are as prevalent and easily found as Lucas makes it out to be then everyone should know about them and everyone should know what they entail.

 

Yeah, the midi's weren't very helpful to the cohesiveness of the story were they? I guess it could be that the Empire were able to manipulate the media to such an extent that their significance was downplayed or explained away.

Hmmmm, bit of a stretch though isn't it?

 

"You, my friend, are all that's left of their ancienct religion." I think Grand Moff Tarkin explained everything with that line. Even he doesn't believe in the Force from the way he says it. Its been 30 years and Palpatine has succeeded in making people think whatever he wants them to.

 

Han Solo's ignorance with respect to the Force doesn't mesh well with the Prequel Trilogy. In the context of the 1977 movie, Star Wars, it does. There was no such thing as "Force sensitives" if you merely believed in the Force, you could tap into it. That's why it's characterized as a religion. And in writing the Thrawn Trilogy in 1991, the author, Tim Zahn asked in what years had the Clone Wars taken place. Lucas told him 50-44 BBY. So, going by Lucas's original intention, Han Solo grew up never seeing a Jedi and Han struck me as the type don't tell me, show me.

But with the addition of the prequel trilogy to the saga, Han's beliefs are ludacris. A galactic war occured while he was alive in which the Jedi played a major role. Thousands of years of documantation that indeed, the Force does exist. The Sith/Jedi wars from generations before. Not to mention I'm sure the many alien species that had lifespans of hundreds of years, like Yoda. The Empire can run a campeign to discredit the realities of the Force, but come on, the Force has been apart of the galaxy for thousands of years, and in 19 years, people are questioning if the Force is real? That's BS.

 

I think Han just doesn't care whether the Force exists or not or controls him or not. Besides he's a smuggler and taking care of himself and able to manage thus far.

As Leia said he only cared for himself, but as time went on he sees the selflessness of Luke,Leia etc and begins to think that the FORCE has some sort of effect on things around him. That's why he tells Luke "May the Force be With You". But as things progress, he decides to help the Rebels; especially Luke, to destroy the DS.

 

But then theres Vader who goes around force choking people and levitating objects. Most people who know of Vader knows he can operate 'this mystical power called the force' so obviously they know it exists. However, I believe Hans POV comes from the fact that he believes in order to survive you cant solely rely on just belief, but need the technology of a blaster. Lightsabers are complicated to non force users, where as anyone can operate a blaster.

 

The World's religions have been around for thousands of years, and despite some people's steadfast adherance to them, other's are deeply skeptical, if not completely disbelieving.

 

But if your side kick (i.e. Chewie) tells you he had seen dudes performing miracles in front of your face, you might listen, no?

 

What miracles did Chewie see Yoda do? He saw Yoda being a Jedi, which involved co-ordinating a battle and saving himself when the Clones turned on him. But I'm not sure I would call any of these things miracles? A miracle is turning water into wine or bringing someone back from the dead, is it not?

 

Yep, and also, there are people all over the place who will tell ohers about amazing spiritual and supernatural phenomena that they've witnessed, and some people just refuse to accept it. There are people out there who are resolutely skeptical about anything beyond the everyday phenomena of worldly existance.

 

Bingo. Han's beliefs are very accurate even when Lucas revised the timeline. Some people need to see it for themselves in order to be convinced. People say that Jesus Christ walked on water. But others will say that it was just a tall tale, that it didn't happen and people were exaggerating. People say that Christ was resurrected, but others will say that's not true. Science tries to disprove the story of Genesis, Adam & Eve and a lot of other things. Religion tries to disprove the Big Bang theory and the theory of evolution. Hell, there are those who don't believe the Holocaust didn't happen and that wasn't that long ago. Some people don't even believe that building number seven in the World Trade Center didn't fall because of the intense heat. But that it was brought down by explosives.

People will believe what they want to believe, unless they see it for themselves.

 

for an in-universe explanation, I agree...Lucas's revisions do nothing to contradict Han's skepticism. Everyone has midichlorians to some level, but, considering Palpatine would have engaged in a systematic purge of anything Jedi, it seems fairly reasonable to think he may have deleted references to midichlorians as well. But, for me, as far as an in-universe explanation goes, How long before Han met Obi-Wan and Luke in the Cantina, was he busy proving the T'landa Til were frauds, and that the "exultation" in their phony religion was nothing but their natural biology being exploited? After his time on Ylesia, is it any wonder that Han Solo is going to be distrusting of anyone with supposed supernatural powers?

 

Again let me say that just because its known that Midichlorians exist in the Star Wars universe, and the Jedi have their theory about how Midi's assist them in their powers, doesn't mean that the whole galaxy believe's in this. Its quite possible that a lot of people think there's no such thing as a "force" and that Midi's aren't communicating this all powerful energy to select individuals, at all. And once the Sith take over, of course the skepticism will just grow and grow because the Sith have an interest in making people believe there is no such thing as the Force and that the Jedi were just this sect of deluded, power-crazed misfits, who wanted to take over the galaxy to further enhance their delusions of grandur.

 

Wait, what makes you think the entire GFFA knows about the Midichlorians? Only the people who brought their children to the Temple or invited the Jedi to their homeworld, knew of it. That doesn't mean that thousands upon thousands knew. And how do Midichlorians prove to your average person on the street that the Force was real?

 

Remember Han's words to Luke: "Kid, I've flown from one side of the galaxy to the other. I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen anything to convince me there's some all powerful Force controlling everything."

It's simple; Han doesn't believe because he's never seen it himself. Sure, he's heard stories about the Jedi, but he probably figures they range from exaggerations to outright lies. Besides, he may figure, "If the Jedi were so powerful, why ain't they around? Sounds like they were frauds, after all."

Add to that one other thing: How many people are in the GFFA, and how many Jedi were there? So, how many people could really say they personally saw the Jedi in action using all those amazing Jedi powers? Based on that, their reputation ends up being based on passed-along stories rather than first-hand knowledge. The same thing goes for Vader; he couldn't have used Dar Side powers on that many people, so his rep grows from stories about those incidents that get circulated.

 

sinister made the point that I was going to make: the chances of the average person knowing what a midichlorian is would have been very small. For the most part, the Jedi are somewhat mysterious to the rest of the galaxy. Sure, they were seen as heroes, but that does not mean the general population knew any detailed information about them.

Han had never seen anything to cause him to believe in the power of the Force, it was that simple. Many people do not follow Christianity because they have not seen anything to prove to them that God exists and that Jesus was real. That is perfectly normal. Many people refuse to accept something as truth unless they have proof. I think that is true in any situation, and certainly ones that require as much faith as believing in God (or the Jedi).

 

IN TPM, Qui-Gon says something like "if he had been born in the republic, we would have identified him early". This seem to suggest that midi-tests are routine. Perhaps all new borns are tested, perhaps they get tested within their first year. Either way most people would have heard of midis but perhaps they do not understand them very well.

Also, since the jedi get children when they are very young, far too young to show actual force use, then it seems unlikely that parents bring children to the temple. More likely that test are done on the infant and based on that test, the child is seen as a potential jedi or not. What the jedi do with them is not clear in the films, either they simply take ALL children with force potential or they ask the parents first.

Bottomline, midis would have been something that most people would have heard off. Esp since the jedi have been around for something like 30 000 years and while it is not clear how long they have used the midi test to select potential jedi, it does not seem like a new thing.

Lastly, the jedi have been around for a very LONG time, over 30 000 years, and for a part of that time they have been a part of the official goverment. Nute Gunray almost messed his pants when faced with the prospect of meeting jedi, his henchman was even more scared, Watto and Anakin had both heard of jedi, despite not living in the republic.

Sure most people probably had not seen the jedi in action but their legend would have been quite big. And legends and people's belief are not so easily removed. Take Russia, the communist party tried very hard to make people forget about religion but the church still had a strong position. Maximilien Robespierre tried to remove all old customs, he changed the names of the days and the months and tired to bring in a new religion, it did not work.

Old habits, customs and the like do not change so easliy.

Lastly about people that deny the Holocaust or think that the earth is flat, most people I know would consider such persons to be rather ignorant and the thread was asking if Han seemed ignorant.

Regards
Nordom