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CT After watching Episode IV for the first time again in quite a while I tend to wonder

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by darkchrono, Jan 8, 2013.

  1. darkchrono

    darkchrono Jedi Master star 4

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    May 23, 2005
    I tend to wonder what story details were already planned out already at that point for the entire six movies and what details were not. For instance the looks that Obi Wan makes when he first sees R2 and 3PO (like he recognizes them) and also the expression he gives when Luke asks him what happened to his father.

    I have heard that Episode 4 was made mainly to be a standalone movie and the other two movies in the same trilogy had not yet been completely formed yet at that point and the prequel movie storylines were nothing more then a couple sketches on paper. But looking at some of the subtle expressions some of the actors made in the very first movie makes me wonder if the entire six movies weren't already planned out in pretty great detail already at that point.

    Or is most of those deals that we view as hints now nothing more than fans making more of it than was ever initially intended at the time A New Hope was made.
     
  2. oierem

    oierem Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 18, 2009
    They weren't planned at all. Those "hints" are just lucky acting choices that work well with the finished product. But when the first movie was made, Luke's father was Luke's father, not Vader, and Obi-Wan had never owned a droid, nor he knew R2 or 3PD.
     
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  3. King Terak

    King Terak Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Nov 22, 2012
    Back then there was no Episode IV: A New Hope either.
     
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  4. DRush76

    DRush76 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 25, 2008
    If ANH was supposed to be a stand alone movie, why did Vader's fate end in a vague manner?
     
  5. oierem

    oierem Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 18, 2009
    Because it was meant to be a homage to the old serials, just an episode of the eternal conflict between good and evil, freedom fighters againts a totalitarian Empire. We don't see the beginning of the conlict, nor we see the ending of it, just a satisfying climax with the victory of the heroes, and the promise that the fight will go on...
    The struggle between the rebels and the empire was meant to be the backdrop of this adventures, and potentially more adventures (novels or movies), but those follow-ups, if they were made, wouldn't necessarily be part of the same story. Just more adventures against the Empire. Vader being the visual icon of the evilness of the regime, he would live on to fight another day.
     
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  6. DRush76

    DRush76 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 25, 2008

    This is a good answer . . . if audiences had known that Lucas had planned to do a sequel . . . or if Lucas had known himself.
     
  7. BigAl6ft6

    BigAl6ft6 Force Ghost star 6

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    Nov 12, 2012
    I think there's a Lucas quote (maybe on the Ep. 4 commentary track) that the point of "Star Wars" is exactly like an old sci-fi serial. As an audience member, you just wander into the middle of a serial, have the adventure start right in the middle of the action, scrolling intro text, there is a ton of implied history (these would have been references to previous installments of the serial that the audience would never see, but it fits in the tone of what those serial movies are), and there is an unresolved ending (like Vader's fate) that imply the story would keep going. But, in it's initial concept, there wouldn't be any more. This was just Lucas' way of chasing his muse, sci-fi adventure serials, and "Star Wars" would have just been a single shot, leaving the audience like, "Wow, what the hell was that?!" When the film went on to become the highest grossing movie of all time, those plans changed a bit. But in it's original concept, "Star Wars" is just that, right in the middle of a serial, you have no idea what's going on, and you're out.
     
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  8. darth.ender

    darth.ender Jedi Knight star 1

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    Dec 28, 2012
    Lucas left ANH open-ended because he actually wanted to do a sequel, but also wanted to leave it as a suitable standalone if necessary. He had Alan Dean Foster (the ghostwriter for Star Wars: From the Adventures of Luke Skywalker) write a sequel, which you know as Splinter of the Mind's Eye. If Star Wars bombed, no sequel would follow. If it was mildly successful, George hoped Splinter could be made into a low budget sequel. But Star Wars soared! He then chose to plan for a much bigger sequel.
     
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  9. Lord Tyrannus

    Lord Tyrannus Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Oct 18, 2012
    It wasn't really all that open ended. I don't really see star wars episode four ANH as being really all that open ended. But it was very sentimentally emotionless, unlike this stuff right over here..........
    [​IMG]
     
  10. darth.ender

    darth.ender Jedi Knight star 1

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    Dec 28, 2012
    Did you read the last few posts? Vader survived. Furthermore, a love triangle without resolution was set up. Honestly, I think it was a well designed film in that if it never had a sequel, it would still be a satisfying movie in its own right without any further stories, but it also led quite well into its sequels.
     
  11. V-2

    V-2 Jedi Master star 5

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    Dec 10, 2012
    I thought he originally wanted to do an actual Flash Gordon or Buck Rogers film, but those franchises were taken so he made up his own. Is there a grain of truth to that? STAR WARS is definitely an homage to scifi serials anyway.
     
  12. darkchrono

    darkchrono Jedi Master star 4

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    May 23, 2005
    Yep I always viewed the Vader situation at the end as just Lucas leaving the door open for any potential movies in the future. You see stuff like that in movies all the time and some get sequels and some don't.

    I guess all those hints that we see now was just good acting on Alec's part.
     
  13. V-2

    V-2 Jedi Master star 5

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    Dec 10, 2012
    Hindsight bias, possibly. You could interpret those shots as Ben being such a kindly old man that he's even nice to droids.
     
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  14. Darth_Nub

    Darth_Nub Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Apr 26, 2009
    Precisely. GL said as much to Alan Dean Foster in 1975 - "Vader runs off in the end, shaking his fist: 'I'll get you yet!'"
     
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  15. Aizakku Rorensu

    Aizakku Rorensu Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Jan 13, 2013
    I always noticed that "pregnant pause," too. That, and Uncle Ben saying "that's what I'm afraid of" after Aunt Beru said that Luke just isn't a farmer and that he had too much of his father in him.

    Yeah, there are those that say that Lucas didn't have it planned all along that Vader was Luke's father. But I don't know, those two instances can easily be interpreted that he did, if you ask me.
     
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  16. Count Yubnub

    Count Yubnub Jedi Knight star 4

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    Oct 1, 2012
    I've always wondered how those stolen Death Star plans saved Leia's people and, moreover, restored freedom to the galaxy, like the opening crawl promised. [face_plain]
     
  17. Saintheart

    Saintheart Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    Dec 16, 2000
    The plans did save the Rebellion. Not Leia's planet as such, but without the plans the Death Star would've eventually found Yavin Four and blown it up. It also restored some freedom to the galaxy as the Empire believed (let's assume with some accuracy) that once the Death Star was operational nobody would dare try to challenge the Empire - the Rebellion would be starved of support and the Empire's grip would become unbreakable. Two scenes from the film played that out: the Tarkin meeting and then Tarkin's interrogation of Leia.

    Random Imperial Dude whose name I can't remember: It's impossible! How will the Emperor maintain control, without the bureaucracy?
    Tarkin: The regional governors now have direct control over their territories. Fear will keep the local systems in line - fear of this battle station.
    ...
    Leia: The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will slip through your fingers.
    Tarkin: Not after we've demonstrated the power of this station.

    The point, I guess, was that had the Death Star remained in existence the Empire would have been seen as completely unchallengeable. When it was destroyed, it proved the regime was vulnerable. It restored some freedom in that respect.
     
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  18. Noash_Retrac

    Noash_Retrac Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 14, 2006
    That guy you can't remember was General Tagge.
     
  19. Darth Boycs

    Darth Boycs Jedi Youngling

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    Apr 25, 2018
    My apologies if people have seen this already, but David Prowse revealed in an interview just after Star Wars came out that Vader was Luke's father. This would suggest that Lucas had this in mind all along.

    http://www.slashfilm.com/david-prowse-ruin-the-empire-strikes-back-years-release/
     
  20. oierem

    oierem Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 18, 2009
    It's rather implaussible that David Prowse would be told about such a secrete plot point (in fact, he has often complained that he didn't know about it until he saw the finished movie!). I'd say it's more likely that he was sort of guessing and happened to be right.
    In any case, that "revelation" happened in 1978, a year after the original movie mas made, and in which Lucas actually decided to make Vader his father.
     
  21. StartCenterEnd

    StartCenterEnd Jedi Master star 3

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    May 2, 2006
    I guess the common consensus among fans is that George Lucas is a huge liar because according to him he knew all along that Darth Vader was Luke’s father and would be redeemed in the end. Certain details changed along the way and he made up a lot as he went along but according to the Maker, the core story was planned all along.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2018
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  22. Tosche_Station

    Tosche_Station Jedi Knight star 2

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    Feb 9, 2015
    But sequels - two to be exact - were planned by Lucas, according to what he told writer/novelist Alan Dean Foster in December of 1975, though perhaps they would have only been books instead of theatrical films. He says that at the end of "book two", audiences would find out "who" Darth Vader was. So him being the father was a distinct possibility, but just as feasible that it would have turned out that he was related in to Luke in some other fashion (or even related to Ben).


    As to Lucas knowing 'all along' I would add some caveats : that he knew at least since 1975, that Darth Vader was someone of some importance under the mask, and not just 'Darth Vader', someone definitely with family ties to the Skywalker/Lars'/Kenobi familes - a relative of Skywalker, with the father of Luke being but one of the possibilities - the others being that he was perhaps an older brother of Luke or an uncle (Anakin's brother). Another plausible consideration/option would be for Vader to have been Obi-Wan's estranged, 'secret' son. I would also say that Lucas might have had in mind a 'redemption' of sorts for Vader, but that it may have been significantly different to what was shown in ROTJ.

    I basically agree about the difference being with the details, and like you, find it highly improbable that the idea of Vader being the long lost Skywalker relative/father to Luke had not occurred to Lucas at all prior to 1978.


    Edit:

    Indeed. However, only five paragraphs later in that same section of the book you are quoting, Lucas talks about the sequels, or "books" two and three. ;)
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2018
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  23. Tosche_Station

    Tosche_Station Jedi Knight star 2

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    Feb 9, 2015
    part II:

    @Darth_Nub :
    Indeed. However, only five paragraphs later in that same section of the book you are quoting, Lucas talks about the sequels, or "books" two and three. ;)
    @oierem : In that same discussion with Foster, Lucas says that "book three" would end with the destruction of the Empire


    Lucas ideas fluctuated back then. When the first movie was made (or more precisely, released), Luke's father wasn't named "Anakin"; he was nameless. In the earlier third draft, he was named "Annikin" (different spelling). Then he went nameless for the fourth draft and shooting scripts, and the finished film. Then, during some back-story world-building with Lucas' head of licensing people in the summer of 1977, he was named Annikin again. Then in the notes and scripts for Empire, he was again nameless. While at the same time, an alternate name of "Tan" is given to licensing in 1978/1979, and is given as the name of Luke's father in the Russ Manning Sunday comic strip that debuted in the Spring of 1979. Finally, in 1981 for the pre-production development for ROTJ, he has the name: Anakin.

    So if we're being technical, Luke's father - as in the man that Ben Kenobi told Luke about in the first movie - wasn't definitively Anakin until ROTJ. Prior to that, it was still possible for Vader to have been Luke's father.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2018
  24. Tosche_Station

    Tosche_Station Jedi Knight star 2

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    Feb 9, 2015
    My point is that prior to ROTJ, Lucas probably had more concrete ideas about who Vader was under the mask, then he did for Ben's Jedi comrade and good friend who was Luke's presumed father.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2018
  25. DARTHLINK

    DARTHLINK Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Feb 24, 2005
    If I recall, Splinter of the Mind’s Eye was meant to be the sequel to the movie in case the films didn’t do so well. The implication was that yes, the fight would continue and we’d see it, but it’d be in book form (as obviously, writing a book is a hell of a lot easier than making a film.)
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2018
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