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Afterlife in Star Wars

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Gungansannoy, Mar 18, 2011.

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  1. QuentinGeorge

    QuentinGeorge Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Dec 12, 2003
    You think that because you've grown up in a culture informed by a religion that puts eternal life as a good thing.

    In truth, however, eternal life is one of the most horrific thoughts you could imagine, if you think of the true repercussions.
     
  2. Dawud786

    Dawud786 Chosen One star 5

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    Dec 28, 2006
    Midi-chlorians don't really determine anything as far as that goes though. I'm not so sure it's even strictly speaking just about the ability to manipulate the Living Force IMO. While I've no evidence to the contrary, it stands to reason for me that since the primary truth to the method of Force ghosting or identity retention or Force immortality is through selfless compassion and surrender to the Force that it couldn't possibly be exclusive to Force-sensitives. Why might you ask? I'd like to think, being somewhat of a Traditionalist/Perennialist, all religions in the GFFA are derived from the core truths of the Force and indeed it would seem that the way in which the Force was discovered by the proto-Jedi on Tython was through a kind of backward engineering of the existing religious, philosophical and metaphysical beliefs/ideas on their planet. Which is probably why the Jedi Order does not actively discourage it's membership from exploring their own culture's spiritual traditions(Chalactans come to mind). I'd like to think that, much like in Jim Butchers Dresden Files series, people of deep faith(and by this I mean a biblical faith not merely belief... but a kind of trust) in their god(s)[which would then be reflections of the Force, much like the Yuuzhan Vong pantheon was/is a twisted corrupt reflection of the Force] tap into the Unifying Force if not the Living Force. If they could do this, then regular folks(besides don't all beings have midi-chlorians and thus if they are particularly devoted to which ever method of quieting the mind should also be able to hear the midi-chlorians communicate the will of the Force to some extent) might be able to have faith to such a degree that they could likewise become one with the Force in this way.

    All that aside, if Leia ever learns the method of becoming immortal in the Force, she'll have surrendered her attachments to this world and herself in such a way that Han not being there won't matter because in truth "Leia" isn't really there in so much as she is kind of more an extension of the Force at that point. Besides which, when these spirit beings aren't acting there is no "where" for them to be... it's just that their consciousness embraces the whole of the Force at this stage. Thus there wouldn't even be an issue because Leia's consciousness is at one with Han's consciousness.

     
  3. Manisphere

    Manisphere Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 25, 2007
    Well, from our admittedly limited perspective it would be. Life as we know it being eternal? Yeah that's hell.

    See, this quote used to make me so comforted when I was a kid:

    Yoda in ESB:
    ?Size matters not. Look at me. Judge me by my size, do you? Hmm? Hmm. And well you should not. For my ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. You must feel the Force around you; here, between you, me, the tree, the rock, everywhere, yes. Even between the land and the ship.?


    Didn't that line give you shivers when you heard it for the first time? Doesn't it still kind of comfort you while oddly coinciding with the same feeling you had? That disappeared from Star Wars in a very bad way. TPM and the EU itself mucked up that warm feeling. When Yoda says, "Luminous beings are we." I took that to mean me in the audience too. And that really meant something.



    Fair enough. This is literally how it for us.

    Some good points. Yes, Leia isn't really there but there was a prolonged burst of ideas and energy that was called Leia Organa Solo. It has to go somewhere with all of those experiences and loves otherwise why did the Force bother to create her in the first place?

    What I find so incongruous about the Jedi relationship with the spirit is that they actually have a direct connection to "Creation" and "The All" in their hands. They are gods when it comes down to it. The Vong weren't very wrong. No one has a connection to the "All" like they do, and yet there is nothing mystical about them. That's gone.

    Something tells me that Luke wouldn't find any of this fair either.
     
  4. CooperTFN

    CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus star 7 VIP

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    Jul 8, 1999
    Revisiting the original post for just a second - do we really want Anakin and Padme to be reunited? Isn't Anakin enough of a Karma Houdini already? (dear god, now I'm referencing TV Tropes) Getting eternal life (or whatever) for himself is enough, I think it's gilding the lily for him to get Padme back as well. And what kind of heaven would that be for Padme, anyway? Having to watch the father of her children spend 20 years slaughtering people? If they did ultimately reunite, I'm sure a serious lecture was involved.
     
  5. LivingJediDream

    LivingJediDream Jedi Master star 4

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    Jul 7, 2010
    I've always wondered what the line was between "maintaining one's identity in the Force" and the apparition actually being the Force speaking through that person, or whether the two were mutually exclusive. One of the books, either the Ep. 2 novelization or a Clone Wars novel, has Yoda believing that he's speaking to the Force, which has adopted the voice of Qui-Gon Jinn. Evidently by the time of Ep. 3, he has decided that it is Qui-Gon, and not the Force speaking to him. Likewise, in The Unifying Force, Jacen hears the voice of Anakin Skywalker, around 25 years after his death (Obi-Wan lasted 9, IIRC, though Qui-Gon was at least around 13+ years after his death). I thought the book implied that it was the Force using Anakin's voice.

    I was actually kind of hopeful than when Denning et al. hinted that an Anakin would be in Legacy of the Force, it would be Anakin Skywalker's apparition, not Anakin Sal-Solo as it turned out.. Though I am assuming at that time that was said, Denning still intended to resurrect Anakin Solo in Invincible.

    Edit: I suppose it's notable that the Lake of Apparitions indicates that the process by which one loses their identity to the Force takes some length of time, since Anakin Solo was still around. Perhaps the technique is simply one by which you can appear to the corporeal world. Additionally, I am guessing Obi-Wan's disappearance in HttE was simply a case of taking the training wheels off Luke's bike, rather than truly a case of necessity, as I believe Zahn intended.
     
  6. Lord_Hydronium

    Lord_Hydronium Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 11, 2002
    Yeah, I think Anakin being able to spend eternity with Padme would kind of miss the whole point of his fall in the first place. He can't do that; trying to was what lead to all the trouble in the first place. Death includes letting go.

    Why? The Jedi certainly don't consider becoming one with the Force a bad thing; it's right there as a big part of their code. Even the Jedi who stick around as ghosts do so by first surrendering.
     
  7. GenAntilles

    GenAntilles Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jul 24, 2007
    I'm not sure I like the idea that the best thing for one is to be completely unemotional with no ties to the physical world before having all individuality obliterated by the Force and end up joining the Force. I mean what is the difference between the ideal Force follower and a low level intelligence droid?

    If I was in Star Wars I'd definitely go the Sith route. I am an emotional individual and I'll continue to exist as an emotional individual.

    Of course we also have the example of Ajunta Pall who after returning to the Light talks about seeing his master before disappearing. Are we to believe Pall's master waited in the Force for thousands of years hoping Pall would return to the Light or that Pall's master was still an individual while one with the Force.
     
  8. Lord_Hydronium

    Lord_Hydronium Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 11, 2002
    Nobody said it was.
     
  9. GenAntilles

    GenAntilles Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jul 24, 2007
    I took that to mean that Anakin shouldn't see Padme again because it was wrong of him to have loved her and wanted to be with her. And that death entails giving up all ties to the physical world.

    If I read to much into that and misinterpreted your statement then it is my fault.
     
  10. Gungansannoy

    Gungansannoy Jedi Youngling

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    Mar 18, 2011
    Good point. You are right with most of the things you say but I still don't know what to think. I just know that RotJ used to have a happy ending until the prequel trilogy. You didn't know much about Anakin's life before he became Darth Vader. You just knew: he had been a good guy but turned to the dark side somehow. In RotJ he became good again, saved his soon and lived on as a thinking entity after his death. All are happy, everything is good. Nowadays, this ending is not a happy one at all. Now you know that Anakin killed the love of his life although he wanted to save her. She's gone and doesn't exist anymore. He becomes a good guy again in RotJ, saves his son and lives on after his death as a thinking entity--but the love of his live is still dead and nothing will change that.

    If he at least could say good-bye to her, see her one last time. But as she's been dead for more than 20 years by RotJ, this isn't possible. Or if we knew that he has accepted her death and will once "become one with the Force" as well... I used to have a good, relieving feeling when watching RotJ until the prequel trilogy. Nowadays I get a bad, very depressing feeling.
     
  11. Lord_Hydronium

    Lord_Hydronium Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 11, 2002
    It wasn't wrong to want to be with her, it was wrong to think he could forever. Anakin fell in part because he was unable to accept the transience of life, and wanted to stop death itself to keep from being separated from Padme (which was always inevitable, whenever it occurred). If his story ended by having an eternal party in Force Heaven with Padme, it would basically say that he was right to want that; he can have it all and never have to let go.

    And death does entail leaving behind the physical world; it's sorta in the definition. If your reaction to that is that you shouldn't have any connection to the world when alive...well, I find that a bit of an extreme reaction, and I can't agree with you there. But death by nature involves letting go that tie, and accepting that fact is a necessary and vital part of dealing with it.
     
  12. Dawud786

    Dawud786 Chosen One star 5

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    Dec 28, 2006
    It's actually the ROTS novelization that says "the Force spoke to him with Qui-Gon's voice."

    I think the whole immortality thing is much like fana wa baqa in Sufism, or uniting with Tao and becoming an immortal in Taoism. In Sufism the goal is to refine your character, behavior, faith and surrender that you eventually lose yourself in God which then leads to finding subsistence with God. It's part of what they call the Arc of Ascent and the Arc of Descent, once you reach the top of the Arc of Ascent you becoming annihilated(fana) in God and then you have Subsistence(baqa) with God and return to the world to act as a guide on the mystic path who is in complete accord with God. Taoist immortality practices are similar, except they have a very alchemical approach to it by refining jing(physical essence, original chi) into chi(life force) into shen(spirit) and harmonizing spirit with Tao. Ultimately all such notions involve the abandonment of base desire in order to be oriented to a higher mode of being and acting.

    Also, I'd like to think that Force immortality isn't entirely dependent upon learning some process or method, but that there can be an element of grace to it. Locking it in as being a method or a feat has necessitated a kind of weak IMO explanation for Anakin's spirit appearing to Luke at the end of ROTJ and worse yet, it happens completely off camera without explanation until you listen to some commentary or interview. Which then leaks into a book that is aimed mostly at children. That Obi-Wan taught Anakin in the Netherworld. I don't really like that. I'd prefer if it was more akin to the status of martyrs as given in the Qur'an(not the debased idea put forth by the likes of al-Qa'ida or other extremists). "You see them not, but they have their sustenance with God." This requires one to give one's life purely for the sake of God, which could be in battle or almost anything else, but it is done purely for the sake of God. Of course, this requires you not view Anakin's overthrown and self-sacrifice in ROTJ to simply have been about Luke and thus a selfish deed... but rather that Luke was the conduit through which he had an epiphany about everything that was wrong in his life and the galaxy and so in saving Luke, he was saving the galaxy and acting for justice and for the will of the Force. And for that he gets his Force immor
     
  13. Manisphere

    Manisphere Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 25, 2007
    He might. That was actually just me getting carried away at the end there. Although I'd love to get into a discussion about it with him.[face_mischief]

    I still maintain that there is a huge spirituality gap in the EU. I don't even find that in say, Star Trek. I just find it odd that here, in our real world, we have no wizards connected directly to the hereafter and yet so many people still have faith in something compassionate after death. The EU feels devoid of this. I suppose I can understand why for story telling reasons. The wars in Star Wars are about good vs bad. More spirituality granted to these characters might make simple morality tales about kind vs. cruel into holy wars.
     
  14. Dawud786

    Dawud786 Chosen One star 5

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    Dec 28, 2006
    I agree, to an extent. I don't think we should see Jedi become a state religion though. I would like to see an expansion on IU religions and for the Jedi to say that all these religions have their roots in the truth of the Force. Much like I Kuan Tao or the Perennialist philosophy says all religions have their root in Transcendental Truth or, in the case of I Kuan Tao, Tao.

    I don't like the specter of the only valid and available spirituality being the Jedi, or even for that matter that the Jedi have the final say on what happens after physical passing. I mean, how could they really? Jedi can no more know for a fact what happens to a soul after death than anyone else, the only Jedi to be around have done this immortality thing... other than that the whole "transform into the Force" thing seems to me it would be more based upon the feeling they get when an individual dies than on any kind of concrete evidence that that soul doesn't experience something after merging with the Force. They just don't have the ability to reach beyond a certain limit like Force ghosts do.
     
  15. Gungansannoy

    Gungansannoy Jedi Youngling

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    Mar 18, 2011
    @ Dawud786:
    Due to my grammar mistakes, you might have already figured out that I'm not a native speaker of English. And this is why I sometimes have difficulties to understand what someone tries to express. So forgive me when I ask you what exactly you mean with your last paragraph? Do you think that even the Force Ghosts cannot know what happens to those who "became one with the Force" as they themselves haven't experienced that? Or do you say that only those Force Ghosts know what really happens but all the other Jedi don't?

    AND: Do you want to express with the comment above that you hope all Jedi of the New Order will be taught how to become immortal/a Force Ghost? Thanks for your answer.
     
  16. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

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    Jul 2, 2004
    Or it could be that the Lake contains "apparitions" of people rather than their actual spirits, or it could be an issue of the Force transcending time, because you're seeing them as they were when they passed through the netherworld.
     
  17. Dawud786

    Dawud786 Chosen One star 5

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    Dec 28, 2006
    In ROTS Yoda tells Obi-Wan that he has to teach him how to talk to Qui-Gon so he can learn the immortality thing. My thought is that Obi-Wan then included whatever Yoda taught him that he needed to hear Qui-Gon in whatever training Luke received from him aboard The Millennium Falcon enroute to Alderaan. So I just assume that Luke teaches all of his students this too, just because it's what he learned.

    As far as the thing about "transform into the Force," what I'm basically saying is how could the Jedi know that at all? The Order by the time of ROTS had lost the immortality thing, so there was no one that could have told them this. Besides which, even the immortal Jedi couldn't really know that for certain. At any rate, normal people transforming into the Force may not have their identities as we currently recognize them to be but they could just be experience some kind of bliss-state where nothing else matters.
     
  18. CooperTFN

    CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus star 7 VIP

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    Jul 8, 1999
    When Luke went to the lake, didn't he only see people he'd known? I think the lake is like Qui-Gon on Mortis - no connection to those actual people or their spirits, just the embodiment of them within you.

    Yes. It's not a 100% happy ending, but the point is that it shouldn't be. By killing Palpatine Anakin made up for his fall on a grand karmic level, but that doesn't magically undo twenty-odd years of evil. Or do all the other people he killed get to come back too? Does Alderaan?
     
  19. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

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    Jul 2, 2004
    That is what I would like to believe about Qui-Gon's Mortis appearance, but by keeping it ambiguous they made it seem like it could actually be Qui-Gon. Then again, Shmi wasn't Shmi. It would have been nice if Qui-Gon had been revealed as a sending of the Daughter in similar fashion.
     
  20. Gungansannoy

    Gungansannoy Jedi Youngling

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    Mar 18, 2011
    I'm not only sorry for him but also for Padmé who surely has not done anything evil.
     
  21. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

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    Jul 2, 2004
    As they say, Sith happens.
     
  22. Dawud786

    Dawud786 Chosen One star 5

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    Dec 28, 2006
    Ah, I think Padme's and everyone else is just blissing out on the Force. It doesn't matter because she's with Anakin any way you slice it since they are both one with the Force and ultimately the same "stuff" as it were. Anakin is just able to communicate when there's a need for him. Ultimately that whole idea of barriers between one individual and another breakdown anyway you slice, and that's kind of the point of the Force ghosting thing.

    Those Jedi, or Whills, who have done it ultimately realize on the spiritual level their oneness with everything and the Force is everything. The first thing in the path to this immortality is to realize that they are nothing more than the Force itself, and then they are able to be both themselves and the Force simultaneously. At this stage, Anakin, Obi-Wan, Yoda, Qui-Gon, eventually Luke are all the Force and also those individuations of the Force. At this point Anakin isn't sweating it because Anakin doesn't exist as he did before in the material world. He now understands that he and Padme are never, nor were they ever, apart because they have always been together in the Force. Before and after their births and deaths. Each and everyone of these Jedi spirits are one with their loved ones and so the mere fact of their loved ones not being individuals is irrelevant because despite these Jedi being able to appear as individual spirits with their memories and identities in tact... they don't necessarily think the same way as they did as individuals on the physical plane.

    For all we know the "what" that these immortal Jedi spirits experience, how they experience the Force, is actually a Heavenly chorus of every individual spirit ever acting as a Whole but still distinguishable for their unique qualities that have contributed to the All of the Force. And that when Obi-Wan, Yoda, Anakin, Luke, Qui-Gon, Arca Jeth, Odan-Ur, Andur Sunrider, Ulic Qel-Droma and every other Jedi, Whill and other Force-sensitive that have attained this state aren't speaking to someone in the physical realm that they are taking part in this great spiritual Heavenly chorus joined to their loved ones as being part of the melody that their unique energetic signatures contributed to this Cosmic Theme.
     
  23. Gungansannoy

    Gungansannoy Jedi Youngling

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    Mar 18, 2011
    A very poetic statement, I have to say. It surely is a way to look at the matter. Not fully reliefing but also not depressing. I wonder how Lucas would see that point. One question left, however: "blissing out" = blessedness, felicity?
     
  24. deafblindandmute

    deafblindandmute Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Oct 3, 2009
    i'd imagine anakin's lingering on as a Force-Ghost for over 130+ years could be his punishment for his time as vader, forced to watch his descendants rise and fall
     
  25. Dawud786

    Dawud786 Chosen One star 5

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    Dec 28, 2006
    Blessedness, felicity... basking in the Presence of the Divine.
     
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