Lit Age Matters Not?

Something that's always bothered me about the post NJO era is how you have established characters from the OT still running around doing stuff people half-their-age shouldn't really be able to manage. As much of a fan as I am of Mara Jade and Luke Skywalker I never really saw how they could wipe the floor with Jacen Solo so easily. They were both at the age of sixty. Sure, old people are awesome but can you really be able to sustain a broken leg and still burn a hole through a guy's skull when you're so near retirement? Mara is able to take Jacen in a rough physical brawl when she's around 59. Jacen really shouldn't have been slapped around so easily. Could NJO Mara waste LoTF-Jacen? I'm certain she could. She's still in her fourties. 60 year-old Mara? Not so much.

I'm aware that such physical acts are heard of here but I really do feel like they were pushing it a little with that. Those fight scenes were enjoyable to read but when it comes down to it shouldn't people like Han really be too old to get in fist fights with Mandos? Again the guy is like 73 when he does this. Luke is the Grandmaster but at the same time age catches up to you eventually. I don't see him facing off so many Sith Sabers in his mid-sixties regardless of his status. Age doesn't seem to have caught up with the Old Guard and I'm trying to figure out when (or if) that will ever happen.

Am I wrong for thinking these guys simply shouldn't be running around doling out such impressive feats when they're getting on in years? Or am I supposed to think that The Force can just sustain you for years and years regardless of how old you get.

Even Count Dooku was overwhelmed by Anakin Skywalker because Dooku was old and couldn't draw on The Force for energy forever.

 

To be fair to Dooku, he was eighty-three.

 

I was only using that to push my point. I didn't have a problem with Count Dooku losing because he was old. He was a powerful Sith but he was old. Stover makes it pretty clear that Dooku's age caught up with him really quickly once Anakin unleashed his own fury and superior strength and speed. (Partially due to his age). Then why at some point did Luke and Mara start to slow down or suffer from their wounds because of their advanced age? Luke takes some hits but that's because he's emotionally compromised but he still lays waste to Jacen. Mara dies because of sheer stupidity on the writer's part. (It still doesn't make sense to me).

 

Luke is twenty years younger now than Dooku was then, presumably stronger in the Force, and most importantly, the main character.

 

How about Yoda? He's within 25 years of the point at which he basically dies of old age at 900- could be compared to a person who's within 2.5 years of age 90- and he's still capable of pulling out a great deal of jumping around in battle.

Same principles may apply.

 

This discussion actually touches on something that occurred to me when we were talking about Mark and Carrie in the Disney thread the other day:

When ANH came out, Luke was very much an everyman charcter, who was an ordinary guy, who the audience could relate to, who achieved great things but never stopped feeling like somebody kids could think "I wanna be Luke!" Then in the prequels, we got your generic Hollywood action heroes, who don't age, who wear too much make-up, who don't look like normal people who don't have personal trainers and dietitians and all the rest.

Which is why I'd like to see some more old age in Star Wars because, you know, real people get older, so who in the cast do they have to relate to...?

Yoda, in ESB, at least provided a character -- albeit a talking puppet -- who behaved like he was truly the old, wise individual. It's a standard archetype, but an increasingly rare one in modern Star Wars. But did we have anybody like that in the PT? Yoda was still old, but when he started leaping around, he ceased to really offer a reflection of things that are usually valued in older people. I think Star Wars needs more of that, especially now that Disney have taken over, as if you target the teenage market too much, you can alienate older audiences who can cease to have anything that they can relate to.

"I wanna be Luke... or I did, until I grew old, but Luke stayed exactly the same."

 

Interesting implications there, in that they apparently identify more with how he looks than what he is, which is a world-class superweapon-destroying fighter pilot with psychic powers and no prior formal training straight off the farm.

 

This. Or Han Solo. I could relate to Luke and Han so much but not Anakin or Obi-Wan.
That's my main problem with the post-NJO timeline. The Big 3 are in their 60's and 70's and have been kicking butt for decades. Luke for 40 years, Leia for a couple years before that and Han ever since he joined Shrike before he was 10. I know this is fiction but come on. They are going to have to burn out some time aren't they? A 20 year Galactic Civil War, Multiple brush fire wars, The 4-5 (whatever it is) Yuuzhan Vong Invasion, The Dark Nest Crisis, The 2nd Galactic Civil War, and whatever the war with Abeloth and the Lost Tribe of the Sith will be called. Leia had to help run the Rebellion and the New Republic, Luke had to bring back the Jedi Order, lost several jedi to the dark side and have been hounded by the media and whatever else for ages. How can they still be sane after that? Let them retire for crying out loud. With Dooku he had to put down some wars over the years but did he have to go through the gauntlet like the Big 3 did?

 

It's not just about what they look like, its about what they represent. To kids, Luke represented growing up; to those same people who now have grown up, he's not represented being grown up, beyond a largely ignored father-son relationship that skipped over the first half of that son's childhood. Dumbledore and McGonagall could whip ass just as well with their magic as Harry, but you didn't see them running around doing it -- they didn't need to anymore.

FatSmel's post in the Disney thread touched on the added problem that their static appearance has created:

Would Leia still have trained with Saba to become a warrior had the cover art kept up with Carrie, or would Leia have been more likely to train with a Jedi who knew more about using the Force for mediation and helping people, rather than just whacking them with laser swords? Her daughter is already doing that, she's the Sword of the Jedi, so why can't mum and dad be allowed to take a step back and act their age for once, by providing help in a different way?

Yoda did, and the help he offered on his death bed training Luke achieved a lot more than his failed attempt to kill Palpatine twenty years earlier. Even Obi-Wan, apart from committing Suicide by Vader, helped Luke through the support he gave him. But when it comes to the Big 3, there's this attitude that there is no "value" in that sort of help and mentorship from an older individual. Unless you're out there, waving your lightsaber, hacking off Sith's heads, you're worthless. None of them represent the things the old can offer than they young can't.

It's basically Hollywood's typical cult of youth problem, where having grey hair, especially if you're a woman, means its time to put you out to pasture because you no longer have anything worthwhile to offer society. But with Episode 7, the Big 3 offer a brilliant opportunity to do something different for a change, rather than just going with the flow and being the same old everyoung Hollywood heroes. Mark and Carrie provide a chance for a film that actually encourages kids to respect older people, whatever they now look like, because of what they still have left to offer, even if it's no longer the athleticism of their youth.

 

I like to think the Force can literally slow down the aging process, it can keep you young. On top of that the Force is an infinite power source, so as long as you draw upon it fatigue and physical limitations are mostly negated. So I don't have a problem with Force users kicking *** basically forever.

But people who can't use the Force? No.

Han should have died years ago. There's just no way someone his age (who's taken the beatings he's taken) would have the reflexes to survive all this danger over the years. There's no way he should be able to fly the Falcon at all like he used to. It's like when Mario Andretti kept coming out of retirement, he just kept crashing.

Fett? He's way too old to be at the top of the game anymore. AFAIK, he's not a genetically altered super soldier like the rest of the clones were. Jango may have had good genes, but they weren't that good.

 

I feel two ways about this. I mean, yes, I agree that it can do that, but I feel that -- like with all things involving the Force -- there should be a price.

To give a parallel, I recall somebody (I forget who) mentioning in another thread this week that they disliked how Jedi can now be everything at once, a warrior, a mystic, a monk, a leader, a general, a starfighter pilot, a diplomat, a battle meditator, etc, etc, etc. They made the point that if you wanted to truly understand the Force, it would mean you wouldn't have had the time to also be a world class swordsman like Kyle Katarn, and that it was a choice a Jedi had to make: did they spend their time meditating on the Force, or did they spend it in the gym doing sparring matches and keeping themselves on top of the lightsaber game?

That, I feel, should also play into how quickly they age: being the greatest swordsman in the galaxy isn't easy. Yoda realized this. He went into retirement. If anything, I've always kinda felt the Clone Wars were what killed him, because he worked himself so hard, the minute the adrenaline stopped, he just crashed, and that was that: age finally caught up with him, and he simply couldn't carry on any longer. Even Yoda, in the end, was just a manunspecified-tridactyle-alien, as frail as anyone else.

Had the Clone Wars not taken it out on him, I'd like to think Yoda could have lived another century (or more) had everything remained quiet and calm.

And, vice versa, I don't see Kyle Katarn living long: he's not spent his life mastering the ways of the Force, he's spent it as a warrior. Kyle is the type of Jedi Knight that I see ageing the same as everyone else, as he just hasn't spent his time trying to become immortal, he's spent it protecting others, saving lives, not looking up the best meditation technique for younger skin and how to keep his pores fresh.

 

And this attitude has permeated modern thought processes too. Ever notice how much people try to disguise the grey hair and wrinkles? There is a potent stigma on old age that if you are old, you are seen of as less worth, or even expendable.

 

Yeah, I loved playing an old Ezio in Revelations too. It's something I really missed in AC3, as while I loved the first couple of hours, I wanted to keep playing the old guy, and felt bored when it switches to just playing another young new guy again.

I like your point about age in RPGs too. Which race you pick sometimes gets special dialogue choices, same with class, or faction alignment, but age...? I can't think of any RPGs where how many wrinkles your character has affects their story, and I remember thinking a few times when playing stuff like Neverwinter Nights "Wouldn't it be cool if my elf was 200 years old and someone brought that up?"

 

I agree, I'm just not sure how steep the price should be.

I've definitely tossed this around myself for years now. How can you be an Ace at everything? It's usually a lame way to portray a character.

When it comes to Force users in Star Wars, most of the time they're required to train to hone their skills, just like the rest of us. Other times, the Force is a substitute for practice. If you "let the Force flow through you", let it take over, you can literally do anything, because it's not you doing it, it's the Force. It's like how Luke can deflect blaster bolts in ANH after ten minutes of practice. With that portrayal, a master of the Force is a master of all things.

I prefer the "skill takes practice" portrayal, with the soft rule that anyone who has the power of the Force is pretty much always superior to anyone who doesn't, eg Jedi are always the best pilots in the galaxy, Wedge Antilles simply cannot compete with the power of the Force, regardless of his skill. When comparing Force users, the Force is canceled out and skill takes precedence.

Absolutely I agree, and I think this should play out even after a single battle. Yeah, Yoda can bounce around like a super ball, but after the battle is over and he lays off the Force, he's spent. I definitely agree with the adrenaline analogy.

But I'm not sure how this should play out long term. Did Yoda really personally participate in many battles during the Clone Wars? He spends most of the war on Coruscant and when he does show up for a battle he's usually just watching things from the rear. Should a few (extra) battles over the course of a lifetime really make a difference? Most Jedi in most eras aren't fighting 24/7, they can easily go years or even decades between real combat.

 

I'll concede the representation point, but I still think that's more part of the problem. Luke never really finished growing up on-screen, not conclusively enough to cement a new status in the EU that followed. Then again, it might be more of a recurring issue with the trilogy as a whole - significant changes were often executed a bit more simplistically than they probably should have been. The Rebellion's easy victory over the Empire, Han's rapid climb from drug smuggler to general, Lando's unexpected promotion to point man on the Death Star run, Luke's Dagobah training sequence, the list goes on.

Leia probably best exemplifies the issue. She'll always be "Princess Leia." Never queen. Sometimes minister, sometimes Chief of State, sometimes Jedi, but it always comes back to "Princess Leia." They've all been essentially frozen in time and character since ANH, never moving on, never transitioning fully to new and different roles, and it's set the tone for the generations that come after them, as well.

 

I thought the clones were only genetically altered to make them more docile, not to make them super-soldiers.

 

-shrugs-

Just an assumption of mine.

 

I acknowldge the problem in itself - but I think the case isn't maybe the best. In SW, lifespan is longer than in our world - and thus we can't compare GFFA people in their sixties with our 60-year olds. They'd be more like 40-50 year olds - and in that perspective, they'd still be closed their peak. I did martial arts before motherhood made me stop - but some of those guys who I trained with and who didn't stop are fully well able to beat the younger. They're not nearly as fast anymore - but experience and focus make up for it. And elder people can grow a toughness that most youngster can't live up to - I've many times seen RL 70-year olds slog away while healthy youngsters begged for a break.

That said, I think you point out something relevant - characters are kept going no matter what. And I think The Loyal Imperial nails why pretty well.

Then again - we also see the opposite tendency - youngsters brought into the mess far too early.


Zorrixor - great, great points!!!

Agreed!!! This is such a beautiful opportunity!!!

 

Completely agree.

This is where I think SW has been forgetting how the old can still compete even if they aren't leaping around anymore. In Dooku's case, I always felt he'd have felt so much more like a master swordsman had he done as little as possible during his fight scenes. Think of the way martial arts grand masters are often portrayed in movies: they just stand still while the young smartass is hopping around, then simply grab their arm at the last moment and slam them down into the floor.

That's the sort of Luke I'd like to see in the ST, rather than a Luke who acted like every other Jedi in the PT -- especially if Mark does take the role, as it will feel really, really weird seeing him more athletic in his old age than he was in ROTJ, which is what will happen if they just use modern CGI to have him fight the same way Christopher Lee did. I'd much, much, much more prefer a Luke who was so in tune with the Force "fighting" no longer meant "jumping around".

Palpatine and Vader never jumped around on screen, but you sure didn't think they were weak.

 

lol - fact is that one of those guys got the nickname 'Luke Skywalker' for a time because he was jumping so much around. So it's not that the jumping is all smart, even when you're young

 

This post is based on the flimsy logic that Kyle Katarn is capable of dying.

I really enjoyed that aspect of Revelations as well. It was also part of the appeal of Metal Gear Solid 4.

That said, there is a practical reason why many RPG's have you play the airheaded youth; the character, as an avatar of the player, needs to learn about the world and steadily get better at combat. That's pretty tricky to do if your character is knowledgeable and badass from the moment you start. It's why amnesia is such a common trick.

Not that it can't be done effectively. I think KOTOR II did a very good job of having both the NPC's and the Exile educate you on important matters (though they still had to come up with a reason why she started the game off weak).

Of course, if you want an RPG character who has really seen it all, Planescape Torment has that one handily covered.

 

Planescape: Torment is also one of the greatest RPGs ever, showing conventional logic need not apply.

 

oops wait, this is not the "Age gap relationships" topic I suspected it might be...

well but interesting food for thought in here nontheless.. my rants will follow later carry on


Edit: PS: Zorrixor Palpatine jumps right at you in ROTS when he kills the Jedi posse of Mace and gang