PT "Agree with you the Council does"

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Oberst Hans Landa, Feb 17, 2014.

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  1. Oberst Hans Landa Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 12, 2014
    star 2
    There is something I do not fully understand about this scene from The Phantom Menace. Doesn't Yoda have a say in who's to be trained and who's not? If he senses grave danger in Anakin's training, why can't he stop Anakin from being trained in the first place? I am not nitpicking here. It's just that this scene does not make a whole lot of sense to me. Let's say I am Yoda and even though Anakin's future is clouded, I can definitely tell there is grave danger in allowing him to become a Jedi. If that is the case, I would try to talk the Jedi Council out of giving Obi Wan permission to train Anakin. And it is just not that, shouldn't the rest of the members of the Jedi Council have felt, at least to a certain degree, the danger Yoda felt? I have not watched the prequels that many times, but I seem to remember Mace Windu saying at some point something along the lines of the Dark Side clouding or diminishing their ability to use the Force. I think it is in Episode II. Maybe that doesn't have anything to do with Anakin's training, but it does have to do with the Dark Side becoming stronger and if I were in the Jedi Council and I still felt danger in training Anakin by the time the events portrayed in Episode II take place, I would more than likely do the math and be opposed to Anakin actually becoming a Jedi. I don't know. Doesn't Yoda have authority in the Council? Shouldn't the members of the Council listen to what he has to say, if anything because he is 800 years old and wise? Or is he just a puppet, pun intended?

    And it's not just that. In the conversation I just quoted, Yoda makes it very clear that he does not agree with Anakin being trained, yet Obi Wan, on whom the level of Jedi knight has just been conferred, has the nerve to openly defy Yoda and say he will train Anakin even if the Council (and Yoda) is/are against it. Wait… what? Isn't that disrespectful? I mean, it's not like Obi Wan was an experienced Jedi. He does not outrank Yoda or any of the other members of the Council for that matter either. Shouldn't he have to follow the orders of the Council? Why would he defy the senior members of the Council who have just bestowed upon him the level of Jedi Knight, for which I am sure he trained long and hard, thus risking everything he worked for? Doesn't the Council have any authority whatsoever or can't they exercise that authority?

    Even if he gave his word to Qui Gon, Qui Gon did not have the same level of authority as the members of the Jedi Council. Their decisions regarding who's to be trained and who's not should have been more important than his promise to Qui Gon, who was by the way blind if he did not sense Anakin was dangerous.

    If you ask me, the Jedi were not that wise.

    Any thoughts on this?
    Last edited by Oberst Hans Landa, Feb 17, 2014
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  2. Seagoat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2013
    star 4

    Nope, now he's CG, thank god

    Ok but seriously to answer your question:

    What I'm most confused about is how he goes from "the council will not let you train him" to "k the council's fine with it" like 30 seconds later. I think this is just another example of the Jedi's overconfidence in the PT. Yoda was probably thinking like "Grave danger I sense in this boy's training, but if wrong goes something, stop him we can. pro hax0r Force Jedi we are"
    Last edited by Seagoat, Feb 17, 2014
  3. Oberst Hans Landa Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 12, 2014
    star 2
    I know ! @Seagoat.
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  4. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Yoda is a senior member of the Council - but he's not the only member. If enough of the Council disagree with him, he has no power to overrule them.

    Obi-Wan is extremely loyal to his Master - that may be why he's so adamant about carrying out his Master's wishes after his death.
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  5. SlashMan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2012
    star 3
    I think Yoda was probably trying to convince Obi-Wan otherwise. The Council had already allowed it, but Yoda was trying to make Obi-Wan see what potential danger was in store, and if need be, not train Anakin. Though Obi-Wan's judgement was influenced by the last wishes of Qui-Gon. Obi-Wan defied a high member of the Council because he felt so strongly on the subject. Remember, Obi-Wan didn't even want them to take Anakin in the first place, but Qui-Gon's sudden death convinced him to train Anakin himself.
  6. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Sounds about right.

    It's interesting to see the TPM novelisation's take on it:

    Yoda's gaze was distant when he spoke. "Decided, the Council is," he repeated. "Trained, the boy shall be."
    Obi-Wan felt a surge of relief and joy flood through him, and a grateful smile escaped him.
    Yoda saw the smile. "Pleased, you are? So certain this is right?" The wrinkled face tightened. "Clouded, this boy's future remains, Obi-Wan. A mistake to train him, it is."
    "But the Council—"
    "Yes, decided." The sleepy eyes lifted. "Disagree with that decision, I must."
    There was a long silence as the two faced each other, listening to the sounds of the funeral preparations taking place without. Obi-Wan did not know what to say. Clearly the Council had decided against the advice of Yoda. That in itself was unusual. That the Jedi Master chose to make a point of it here emphasized the extent of his concerns about Anakin Skywalker.
    Obi-Wan spoke carefully. "I will take the boy as my Padawan, Master. I will train him in the best way I can. But I will bear in mind what you have told me here. I will go carefully. I will heed your warnings. I will keep close watch over his progress."
    Yoda studied him a moment, then nodded. "Your promise, then, remember well, young Jedi," he said softly. "Sufficient, it is, if you do."
    Obi-Wan bowed in acknowledgement. "I will remember."
    Together, they went out into a blaze of light.

    Yoda also talks it over with Mace:

    Mace: "Qui-Gon was right. He is ready."
    Yoda: "Ready this time he was. Ready to train the boy, he may not be."
    Mace: "Defeating a Sith Lord in combat is a strong test of his readiness for anything. There is no doubt. The one who tested him was a Sith."
    Yoda: "Always two there are. No more, no less. A master and an apprentice."
    Mace: "Then which one was destroyed, do you think- the master or the apprentice?"

  7. Oberst Hans Landa Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 12, 2014
    star 2
    @Iron_lord

    @SlashMan

    Good point. However, I still feel Obi Wan should have listened to Yoda. After all, grave danger is not something to be taken lightly. And let's not forget that when Anakin was brought before the Council, nobody was in favor of him being trained that we know of. But I think it is fair to assume no member of the Council agreed with his training. Therefore I wonder why they changed their minds.
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  8. May_The_Force_Be_With_You Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2014
    star 1
    My guess is that there is a fear of Obi-Wan going off on his own to train Anakin. As @Seagoat stated - Yoda and the Council probably felt more comfortable with him training Anakin under their watchful eye. So if anything went wrong, they'd be able to step in and help. Rather than the two of them just flying off into the outer rim and training where the Jedi had no control. Who knows what would happen to Anakin if that had occurred? Anakin seemed to be damned no matter what. Ironically, he probably would have been better off if he had been left behind on Tatooine with his mother.
    Last edited by May_The_Force_Be_With_You, Feb 17, 2014
  9. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    At the time, they were a bit skeptical of Qui-Gon's claim that he'd encountered a Sith Lord, and, probably, his claim that Anakin was the Chosen One, too.

    Obi-Wan's account of his battle with Maul was probably what convinced them that the Sith had indeed returned.

    And thus - they probably became less skeptical of the possibility of Anakin being the Chosen One, as well.

    Hence, they figure - train him - just in case he is the Chosen One after all.
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Feb 17, 2014
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  10. DARTHLINK Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 24, 2005
    star 3
    @ Iron_lord: That's how I always thought of it. The Sith had returned, and if Anakin were the Chosen One, it'd be for the best he'd be with them, and not out there in the galaxy somewhere where the Sith could easily intercept him via turning him or killing him.
    Last edited by DARTHLINK, Feb 17, 2014
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  11. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Obi-wan had made a promise to Qui-gon and based on his own feelings about the boy, as they stood now, he believed that it was the right thing to do. Yoda says to Qui-gon, "Our own counsel we will keep on who is ready." Meaning that it was an unanimous vote that decided Obi-wan's fate. What Yoda said to Luke was, "My own counsel I will keep on who is to be trained.", which refers to the fact that it is down to Yoda now to train Luke. Obi-wan cannot interfere in this regard and no other Master exists to countermand his decision. Thirty years earlier, Obi-wan said that he would go against the Council if need be with Anakin's training. The Council agreed 11 to 1 in favor of training the boy within the Temple and their full support.
  12. darth ladnar Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 20, 2013
    star 3
    The Jedi Counsel is a voting body, so Yoda can be out-voted. The counsel was against training Anakin earlier in the film because they looked at Qui-Gon with skepticism, but since he ended up being right about the Sith, that made the whole Chosen One thing a lot more sensible. (I mean, you don't really need a Chosen One if the Sith don't even exist, and actually to me it seemed pretty silly for Qui-Gon to even suggest that.) In fact, some of them are probably not even thinking about what's best of Anakin. They see him as more of a means to an end. The Sith have re-appeared, and they know that Anakin might be the guy who is meant to kill them off.

    In the scene between Yoda and Obi-Wan, Yoda is giving Obi-Wan his personal advice. Even if the Counsel allows Obi to train him, that doesn't mean that Obi has to train him. Also, the Counsel and Yoda all recognize that Obi-Wan will most likely leave the order and train Anakin even if they say he can't. Qui-Gon's dying words asked him to train Anakin, and Obi-Wan agreed. In the end, Yoda is just forcefully stating his opinion, and I also think that Yoda may have a deeper understanding of the prophecy than the other Jedi do. They think that they need to make Anakin a Jedi so that he'll fulfill the prophecy. Yoda doesn't think that matters at all. If he's the Chosen One, then that's what he'll end up doing. That's why Yoda says: "The Chosen One the boy may be. Nevertheless, grave danger I sense in his training." Yoda is basically saying, "If he's the Chosen One, then one way or another he's going to fulfill the prophecy, but that doesn't mean that we need to train him. In fact, I sense that training him will just lead to trouble, so don't feel like you have to train him so that he'll fulfill the prophecy. Let fate handle that."
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  13. Darth Maul Apprentice Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2014
    star 4
    This is really interesting. I wonder what that would have looked like to see Obi train Anakin without the approval of the counsel. Do you think he really would of done it? Just because he gave Qui-Gon his word, it was in the midst of an extremely emotional moment, which the Jedi are not real fond of. It would have been neat to see that played out.
  14. ObiAlKenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2012
    star 2
    The prequels really showed how arrogant, over confident and blind to so many things the Jedi were. I thought, well why doesn't Yoda train him then instead of letting a newly crowned Jedi Knight? It's another reason i wish both Anakin and Obi were portrayed as being older in TPM. An older, maverick like Anakin that no one in the Council wants to train with Obi-Wan, a respected and somewhat experienced Jedi willing to take him under his wing. Yes, it was like that in AOTC but I would have liked to see their friendship grow over all three movies.

    Anyway, back to the point. In many ways, the Jedi were responsible for their own downfall. Stuck in their dogmatic ways, unwilling to change or adapt.
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  15. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Well, Jedi bashing is always fun. One of few times in media or life when genocide victims get blamed for their own genocide.

    I think Yoda got outvoted, probably because the Council decided that not training someone with such a powerful Force potential was more dangerous than training him. And yes, they probably did believe they were capable of training him successfully.

    He probably should have been given to Mace Windu instead of Obi-Wan but that would have messed up the OT.
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  16. Oberst Hans Landa Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 12, 2014
    star 2
    True.
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  17. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4
    Yoda got out voted. And besides, I never took his fears about Anakin too seriously. He allowed his own fears and ego to react negatively to Anakin. I think he found Anakin "too different". It's a pity that he had failed to harbor similar fears about his former padawan . . . Count Dooku.


    I don't see how an older Anakin would have led him to be trained by a more experienced Jedi knight or master. No one really wanted to train him, regardless of his age. They regarded him as too different. Which is why Obi-Wan ended up training him in the first place. Yoda thought Anakin was too old at nine years old, anyway. He was even reluctant to train Luke for the same reason, who was at least 22 years old when they first met.
  18. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    There's really a very simple explanation for why the Jedi decided to train Anakin: the re-emergence of the Sith. By the end of TPM, and with Qui-Gon's death, the Jedi now have no doubt that the Sith have returned. Although they may be uncertain of Anakin's status as the Chosen One, I imagine that they didn't want to risk not having him trained should the other Sith make his appearance, given that Anakin is prophesied to destroy them.

    Obi-Wan made a promise to Qui-Gon to train Anakin (which Qui-Gon had him make because he believed that it was essential that Anakin be trained to bring balance to the Force) and Obi-Wan is not going to break that promise. It just so happens that, with the confirmed return of the Sith, the majority of the Council now agrees with him and gives their approval to proceed with the training.
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  19. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Yeah, he would have done it. When a Jedi gives their word, it is a promise that is not taken lightly. That much is given based on what Obi-wan says to Yoda and later what he says to Anakin in AOTC. Anakin even indicates that to be the case when he promises to find the assassin and their employer.

    Because the Council was willing to let Obi-wan fulfill his promise and Obi-wan thought that he could do as good a job as Yoda. The Council agreed that since Obi-wan was a familiar face and capable in the ways of the Force, that he could do both of the things that Yoda would do and what he would do under normal circumstances.
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  20. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4

    Plus, it's not necessarily a bad idea to have the only guy to have killed a Sith Lord train your prophesied "Chosen One" who is, after all, predicted to destroy the Sith.
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  21. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    But he doesn't say the council will not let you train him, he just says he disagrees with it personally.
  22. DARTHLINK Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 24, 2005
    star 3
    Yeah, he's just saying, "I personally think this is a *really* bad idea, but the Council wants you to train Anakin. *sigh* Very well, go train Anakin."
  23. May_The_Force_Be_With_You Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2014
    star 1
    Oh for sure Obi-Wan would have done that. I don't think he "threatens" often - especially Yoda. His ultimatum seemed completely legitimate.

    I'm not sure how it would have looked if Obi-Wan trained Anakin on his own. Perhaps similar to how he had done it with Luke in ANH?

    Interesting idea. Except considering how antagonistic Windu always was towards Anakin in all three movies - that probably would have ended badly. Unless Windu would have grown fond of Anakin by being directly close to him. IDK.
  24. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I'm just imagining Mace in AOTC telling Anakin the Star Wars equivalent of "butch up prom queen."
  25. CT-867-5309 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    For me the idea is that Anakin wouldn't be able to beat up Mace the way he thought he could beat up Obi-Wan.

    Mace could answer Anakin's insane arrogance by spanking him in a duel, while Obi-Wan could not. That's what Anakin respects, power. He's very might makes right, and Mace has might, so that would make Mace's words right in Anakin's mind. It would challenge him to truly devote himself to the Jedi way, because Mace devotes himself to the Jedi way (lol) and he kicks ass. If Anakin wants to kick ass, and he does, he'll do what Mace does.

    Once Obi-Wan lost the ability to bend Anakin over his knee (and this probably happened years before AOTC), he lost a good deal of his ability to influence Anakin, who thought he knew better because he was MORE POWERFUL. It's a very common adolescent mindset.
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