Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by Darth Valkyrus, Nov 6, 2013.
You know that wont happen right.
As far as I'm concerned, any story that retcons either Vader being the most badass villain in the GFFA next to Palpatine, or Luke being the only one to try to reach Vader after ROTS (and the only one to succeed), does not deserve the name of Star Wars.
The main defense I've heard of Starkiller is that he's a video game character and his becoming more powerful helps the player move to the next level. He still sounds like someone I'd hate though.
@Jedi Knight Fett : What won't happen? The mud-wrestling? I find your lack of faith disturbing.
I am pretty sure those games are non canon now.
The thing is, Starkiller could've never turned Vader back to the light–that was the thing only Luke could do. Thus, only Luke could ever fully defeat the Sith, because even if Starkiller had been able to kill Vader he wouldn't have been able to handle Palpatine (if you read the game's novel, it is obvious that Palpatine never really tries to fight him until the end, and when he does he utterly annihilates him).
I agree mostly with your first point. Especially with a show set between trilogies. On the other hand I don't see a problem with more powerful threats long after the OT era. All I ask is for the story to be told well.
As for your next point, do we really want to give Filoni ideas for Rebels? I mean, I'd like it, but then I'm a perv. And it'd depend on who's involved.
And it's absolutely crazy. It is like taking Doctor Doom or the Joker and doing your best to destroy their image of badassery. Sometimes it almost felt as if Lucas hated Vader and only appreciated *yuck* Anakin Skywalker. But I think this is about to change.
I'm gonna assist you.
IF she must show up at all, I'd want Ahsoka to be completely independent of any faction we all ready know so we can get past this 'dark' = Sith and light = Jedi nonsense regarding Force-users.
I actually don't think this is far from the truth. I've long speculated that Lucas may have a bit of resentment for the fact that the most popular and influential character he created is a bad guy. And his attempts recently to remake the character into a hero (as Anakin) never really caught on in public consciousness. Also note how none of the PT had a truly worthwhile villain aside from Maul who lasted one movie.
Of course I don't know the man so this is all speculation.
I appreciate all the help I can get!
You may be right, but to be fair, I think Zahn was the first to have a villain outdo Vader.
He may have done so with Lucas' approval though.
And if Lucas does have that resentment...I think he ought to just be glad that fans enjoy characters that he created, even if we don't always view the story or characters the way he would have chosen for us to do so.
Yeah but (assuming you're talking about Thrawn) he deserved to outdo Vader, given that he was specifically a canny, conniving, creative, fast thinking, cool at all times tactical genius. Whereas Vader was just a "Hulk Smash!" kinda villain.
He was a different kind of villain but we'll have to agree to disagree about the "deserving to outdo Vader" part.
Seems that Mara Jade outdid Vader in Zahn's books too.
Why do so many seem to think Vader's untouchable or the pinnacle 'villain' I don't get it?
In my opinion, he shouldn't get defeated at all until Luke's arrival.
IMHO there's room for a few people to go the distance in combat with Vader or even look threatening, and in some cases either escape, or lose in ways that are more the fortunes of battle being against them, rather than because of Vader's unstoppable, inexorable crushing powah.
I can't emphasize the few aspect of this enough though. If they were to have such encounters they'd really need to be on their guard not to let them become too common and risk invoking the Worf Effect.
What is the Worf Effect? I do know Trek pretty well but please explain this according to you. I don't think Anakin or Vader is the end all be all of anything but I'm curious why it seems many do yet this isn't on topic for an Ahsoka thread.
No I was talking about there not being any ties to the clone wars.
I have said it before and I will say it again Vader should kill Ashoka to show that there really is no Anakin left until Luke shows up.
Examples from the trope namer:
After a while it became counter-productive, instead of being a super tough guy who other characters could beat to prove their toughness, he got beat so often he started looking like a wimp.
I don't think that would achieve that end, Fett.
Because that's what he was when we saw the OT and fell in love with it.
For some, I suppose. I never saw Vader as much of anything but a pawn that got played and the Guard Dog. However I do much prefer Vader in the OT because he shows his conflict and gets redeemed.
Oh believe me, the members of LACWAC have that down to a science.
But Anakin and Ahsoka are intrinsically linked, hence why people would speculate what a meeting between Ahsoka and Vader would be like.
Maybe because he is massively more popular than the other SW villain and tends to pop up in all the "best villain of all times" lists?
Most people who appear anti-Vader are EU fans who have swallowed all the deconstructions in the EU over the year, presenting Vader as an unthinking brute when that was never all he was. He was also shown as a manipulator and a tactician which is something that is often forgotten. Most of the time the heroes won against Vader was because of sheer dumb luck, like when Luke made his one in a million shot a few seconds before Vader would've gotten him (and the TIE's were outnumbered because Tarkin didn't send many out there) or when Artoo fixed the hyperdrive seconds before the falcon could get captured (which was already Vader's plan B to stop them, as he stationed troops precisely to ward against betrayal by Calrissian).
Vader is meant to be feared for a reason in A New Hope.
Personally I don't think Anakin/Vader could kill Ahsoka. In a duel 100% of the time 100% but emotionally I do not think he could come to make that decision. He killed Mace cause he hated Mace. He killed Obi-Wan because as you can see in ROTS he thought Obi-Wan betrayed him. Ahsoka did nothing to him except maybe break his heart. If she shows up in Episode VII it is because Vader either let her live or she was just really good at hiding. Do I want to see a duel between Anakin and Ahsoka just to watch Ahsoka get destroyed emotionally before she dies? Does a bear crap in the woods? Hell yes!
Also no one should be able to defeat Vader except Luke. To say that Starkiller could do that is just foolish because Anakin/Vader is the chosen one so how could some other Sith kill him. It would just destroy what the OT is about. I agree that Starkiller got stronger so you could beat the game. In regards to the EU, there is a reason it is EU. It is someone's opinion on events in that time. As much as people believe it I don't read it because it takes away and adds un-needed information like believing that people were stronger than Vader. Just my two cents on the topic.