Index All Helmet, No Head - The Mandalorian Discussion Group and Index---New stories, new discussion--9/2!

Discussion in 'Fan Fiction and Writing Resource' started by Corran_Fett, Oct 3, 2006.

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  1. browwiw Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2007
    star 3
    Ah! Good point on the Sarmatians. I actually have a copy of Herodotus' The Histories. I'll have to look them up.

    Traviss has already stated on her StarWars.com blog that she based Mando culture primarily on the Celts (Wiki on the Celts. The ancient Celts were a ethnically and geographically diverse people that shared the same basic culture and language. Archaeological digs have shown that Celtic culture spanned all across Europe and even east of Greece (Celtic culture map).

    As a fledgling fictional culture, I think it would be appropriate incorporate elements of any society that we felt synced with Traviss' concept. For example, I think an son of Mandalore would agree with the verses found in "Sayings of the High One" from the Norse The Poetic Edda:

    The foolish man thinks he will live forever,
    if he keeps away from fighting;
    but old age won't grant him truce
    even if the spears do.
    - stanza 16, Sayings of the High One

    Cattle die, kinsmen die,
    the self must also die;
    but glory never dies,
    for the man who is able to achieve it.

    Cattle die, kinsmen die,
    the self must also die;
    I know one thing which never dies:
    the reputation of each dead man.
    - stanzas 76 & 77, Sayings of the High One

    And from the other side of the world, we can appreciate the pragmatism of the samurai:

    For warriors of lesser rank , it is particularly desirable that they learn to ride well, so that they can ride any horse, even rambunctious and unruly horses. Let me explain. Fine horses easy to ride are rare; even if they exist, they are the mounts of great warriors, not found tethered in the stables of warriors of lesser rank. But, if you master horsemanship, you can spot a horse that is good but is too rambunctious, temperamental, or unruly and buy it for a low price; thus you can always have a better horse than you could normally afford.
    - from Part 1, Chapter 10 'Horsemanship', Code of the Samurai

    Of course, this should all be taken with a grain of salt. Saying of the High One is rife with chauvinism. Samurai bushido is ultimately a form of institutionalization to condition highly trained warrior to be fanatically subservient to their lords. I really don't see Mandalorians being inherently sexist or gladly accepting a bag of rice for putting their life on the line.

    But, there's a lot to be gleaned and synthesized from real-world archaic warrior societies when developing your own unique, fictional one.


  2. browwiw Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2007
    star 3
    I hate to double post, but I just had another thought. Mostly. I found my copy of the Hagakure. As I previously stated, I'm of the opinion that most warrior cultures are the product of feudal societies attempting to keep their warriors under control. A feudal government is essentially a pyramid scheme. The few nobles at the top benefit from the toil and suffering of the vassals and indentured servants under them. In such a society these few nobles are in constant fear of the 'lessers' revolting (they have greater numbers, after all). So, most feudal systems have a 'warrior class' that exists to both protect the ruling class' interests and keep the serving class in line (warrior classes also exist as holding places for extraneous sons that are unlikely to become heirs). These warrior classes tend to be extremely well trained and capable and, really, whats to stop them from turning on their numerically fewer leaders? Warrior codes, that's what.

    This principle is best seen in the bushi revolt in early Japan. These bushi (which means 'warrior') decided they should dispose their overlords and be the leaders. This led to generations of anarchy and every changing 'tent governments'. After everything got straightened out, the shoguns reorganized the bushi (warriors) into samurai (attendants). Instead of being payed in land and currency (which they could use to fund rebellions like the bushi did), samurai were paid in rice and weapons and prospered solely by the discretion of their lords. In fact, this is where the 'paper houses' of Japan originated. In the event of invasion, samurai would retreat into their shogun's castle and burn their homes. This way, any siege-force was denied the resource of pre-existing shelter.

    So, I think when writing clone troopers, it would be helpful to draw inspiration from historical samurai society. Clone troopers live and die the Republic. They are a fully realized and purposed 'warrior cult' that gains no payment but the armor on their backs and the blasters in their hands.

    This passage from Yamamoto Tsunetomo's Hagakure (a collection of recorded anecdotes and stories about samurai and living by bushido. It's meant to be read and meditated on.Code of the Samurai is a book that was given to young, neophyte samurai that expressly stated "do's and don'ts". The Japanese title Bushido Shoshinshu literally translates as Bushido for Beginners. Meh. I am long winded.) expresses, I feel, the thought process and level of conditioning of a proper clone trooper.

    ===
    The Way of the Samurai is found in death. When it comes to either/or, there is only the quick choice of death. It is not particularly difficult. Be determined and advance. To say that dying dying without reaching one's aim is to die a dog's death is the frivolous way of sophisticates. When pressed with the choice of life or death, it is not necessary to gain one's aim.

    We all want to live. And in large part we make our logic according to what we like. But not having attained our aim and continuing to live is cowardice. This is a thin dangerous line. To die without gaining one's aim is a dog's death and fanaticism. But there is no shame in this. This is the substance of the Way of the Samurai. If by setting one's heart right every morning and evening, one is able to live as though his body were already dead, he gains freedom in the Way. His whole life will be without blame, and he will succeed in his calling.
    -- from the 1st Chapter, Hagakure
    ===
  3. Quiet_Mandalorian Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 19, 2005
    star 5
    Interesting post, I must say, and quite plausible in many aspects, though I have to wonder how the essentially Norse/Spartan/Celtic Mandalorians of the Cuy'val Dar would end up teaching the clones variations on Japanese philosophy...;)[face_peace]
  4. browwiw Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2007
    star 3
    Well, I wonder how the denizens of a far,far away galaxy could be parallel to archaic Earthly cultures (regardless of hemisphere) in the first place. It's fiction. Fan fiction at that. Add and remove as pleases you.

  5. Quiet_Mandalorian Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 19, 2005
    star 5
    For my part, and can't really see extra-terrestrial human cultures developing in demonstrably different ways than they have here on Earth, but that's a topic for another discussion, I think.

    No need to take offence, nor to make that sort of defense of yourself. Again, I'm not trying to pour a bucket of cold water on your theorizing. Not in the least. You've made some very well-founded points here, even if I don't agree with every last one of them, and I'm certainly appreciative of your presence and contributions.

    The thing is, I was just trying to say (in an intendly humorous manner that seems to have backfired) that it's a logical theory, and a very elegant, historically-grounded one at that, but it leaves open a few questions as to why the Mandalorian instructors would be teaching that kind of ethic to their charges when, at least to my knowledge, it isn't really present in their culture and in fact might be said to be somewhat antithetical to the attitudes of Mandalorian society, appropriate enough as it would be for the clones, though I will admit that I could've said as much to begin with, and in a much less ambiguous fashion.

    My apologies.
  6. browwiw Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2007
    star 3
    Nothing to be sorry for. I wasn't offended. I'm just obtuse (and I refuse to use emoticons to denote when I am...because I'm obtuse).

    I'm just saying when you're building up a fictional culture there's no rule about what real world cultures you cull or draw inspiration one. The Yuuzhan Vong religon, for example, seem to draw heavily from certain middle eastern religions (or at least western stereotypes of them) and mesoamerican religions. Two different parts of the world, two different eras...and it synthesized into something that a lot of people find compelling.

    You do make a good point about the Cuy'val Dar. I was referring to rank and file clone troopers when I brought up the bushido warrior code. They are conditioned to put the 'big picture' of achieving an objective above their own personal well-being. They are raised to understand that they have a single purpose in life. That's why I likened clone troopers (as opposed to commandos and ARCs, but I could have been more specific) to the ideal of "living as your body is already dead".

    The Cuy'val Dar instilled more of a champion-hero concept into their commandos. IE, it's alright to die for your cause, but its preferable to win, live, and brag about it later. I did originally bring up the samurai though because there's a lot of pragmatism along with the martial fatalism (don't just learn how to ride a horse, learn how to ride any horse). And I think we can all agree Mandalorians are pragmatic.

    And I like to hear myself talk.
  7. correllian_ale Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 20, 2005
    star 4
    Doesn't Karen Traviss have Skirata call the clones in general as being dar'manda (without a soul or identity) as a reference to the fact they had no purpose in "being" other than to serve a cause that didn't benifit them?

    I know that's the term that Darman's name was derived from.
  8. browwiw Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2007
    star 3
    Jeez, I just keep going...

    As I understand it, Kal was referring to a spiritual death. Without the Mandalorian culture to sustain them, the clones would have no existence in the after life. The concept of "living as your body is already dead" is more literal. A warrior can die at any moment: in war, walking down the road, eating dinner. At any moment death can be on you and there should be no hesitation or great surprise in facing it.
  9. correllian_ale Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 20, 2005
    star 4
    Maybe I'm reading too much into a loose definition of the term dar'manda, but I think the two would go hand-in-hand, don't you? As long as the clones are basically slaves to the Republic/Empire, they'll never be able to be learn or embrace their own heritage.

    Also add, that in general; the Mando'a fight wars that they are either a)paid to fight, or b)have a personal, or social stake in - which I believe is similar to the bushido warrior code you spoke of earlier (of which I won't even pretend to have knowledge of). In the clone army's case, they have neither; which would essentially make them "dead" to the culture Kal is trying to impress upon the "Nulls" and the Commandos.

  10. Quiet_Mandalorian Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 19, 2005
    star 5
    I certainly wouldn't say that you're in any way obtuse (though the use of smileys might just help to communicate your intentions a little better ;))

    And again, I would have to disagree- there has to be some element of similarity, some common element by which the two can be synthesized into a fictionalized whole, and the Vong present a fairly good example of this, as there is, I think, some sense of kinship between some of the bloodier aspects of Islam and the Aztec or Mayan religions

    Well, again, I would agree. It would certainly make sense for them to be conditioned in that way (perhaps by the Kaminoans?), though in light of that it's interesting to note how the individualistic Mandalorian influences began to trickle down into the rank and file as the war progressed. [face_thinking]

    Yes, just not, perhaps, pragmatic as the Japanese were pragmatic.

    For example, there's the statement that Camper makes in the Knights of the Old Republic commics to the effect that Mandalorians are defined by their reputations, and though he's speaking of the Mandos as they existed 4,000 years before the "present day" in the EU, his words are probably as true of the modern Mandalorian mercenaries as they would have been of the Neo-Crusaders warring with the Old Republic. After all, in order for a mercenary to be succesful in finding steady employment, he has to have a good reputations, and in order for him to have a good reputation, or at least a reputation that commends itself to potential employers, he has to comport himself in an honourable and trustworthy manner, adhering to a standard of chivalric behaviour of a sort for practical, pragmatic reasons, much like the mercenary knights of the later Middle Ages. Too, the boast that the Mandos have fought "with a thousand armies, on a thousand worlds" is more in keeping, I think with the foot-loose and far-ranging knighthood of Europe than their isolated counterparts in Japan, though feel free to correct me if I'm wrong in my understanding that a similar trend towards fighting for monetary reward was not, by and large, present amongst the samurai class.[face_thinking]

    Again, mind you, I'm not trying to shoot you down here in drawing these parallels. I'm just arguing in favour of those that I feel to be a little closer.
  11. Corran_Fett Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2005
    star 4
    :eek: Woah. I didn't think I'd spawn such a huge discussion out of this little sidenote from me. But good to see some activity back, lads! =D= [face_dancing] (now it's just about time you grab your pens and start writing... :p )

    However, I have to admit that I'm a bit disappointed that only ale was responsive to my particular post... [face_whistling]

    That's a point I noticed, too. It seems to be the major difference, but I'd take bets that if the Sarmatians weren't scattered by the Romans and Huns, they sooner or later would've taken that step, too, and taken care of merging that last part, say finding a common language.

    I'd think so, but I don't really know. Without at least a common language to communicate between each other, a unity would've hardly been possible.

    Well, in the case of the GFFA, having a common language is something easier than on Earth, imho. With Basic as the galaxy-wide standard language, communication is way easier in the first place, because everyone joining the Mandalorians is probably capable of speaking Basic. Mando'a (that's the language, btw, the people are called Mando'ade ;) ) derives from the ancient Taung language, AFAIK, and with the Taung being the first "real" Mandalorians, it only seems plausible that others joining their ranks also learn their language. It'd be interesting to see more of the origins of the Mandalorians, chances are they might've started just as the Sarmatians without a common language - or not. Language or not, I think you're still right that the Sarmatians weren't as centralized and united as the Mandalorians.

    I dunno, but I'd say: yes. I just know that the Sarmatians often attacked the Roman Empire after conquering Scythian territory in the northern Black Sea region. Later, however, they hired as mercs in the Roman Empire, with some of them sent to Britain in Roman service.

    That's another aspect I'd relate to the Sarmatians. They also fought numerous enemies (Scythians, Greeks, Romans, etc.) and later worked as mercenaries with a good reputation.
  12. browwiw Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2007
    star 3
    But I am obtuse, otherwise I would use smileys. I would use 'lewd-hand-gestureys' if they had them. One can dream.

    I don't feel like you're shooting me down, in that I'm not setting up targets. I'm just tossing out ideas and making observations about possible inspirations for writers. I'm not drawing in the sand. I'm writing my name in the snow! Seriously, I'm just tossing out ideas and seeing if they float. I like a good dialectic. We could always try to work in the 1880's Wild West cowboy theme that George Lucas worked into Boba and Jango. Now that's a weird mash-up if you think about it...GL combined his love of cowboy films and the old Republic (the studio from the '30s, not the EU era) serials of Commando Cody. Jet packs and twirling pistols...and it worked!

    Anyway, I'm going digress from the fluff and into the crunch (showing my old school gaming roots there). This has nothing to do with the ongoing discussion and I can't think of a good segue. I'm just gonna talk about it.

    I target shooting is one of my hobbies. My pistol is a M1911 clone. 1911s are exceptional in the fact they are an 80 year old design that is still one of the most popular and abundant handguns in the world. Colt originally made and since the 1911 was military issue for decades everybody got a contract to make them. Everybody. Colt, S&W, Springfield, Kimber, and dozens --maybe hundreds-- of other manufactures. Heck, mine is from a Filipino outfit called Armscor. Some more experienced, devoted, and wealthy 1911 shooters I know assemble their pistols from parts of different manufactures. Colt receiver, Kimber slide, Rock Island barrel, etc.

    Anyway, I bring this up because I noticed that the most abundant blaster rifle is the BlasTech E-11. Aka the StormTrooper One. To keep up with Imperial demand, BlasTech subcontracted E-11 manufacturing to SoroSuub and Merr-Sonn. I think it would add an amount of cool verisimilitude to write a Mando who has custom assembled his 'mundane weapon' out of the choicest components the various manufactures had to offer.

    "'Just a BlasTech E-11', you say? Well, I guess the primary focusing unit is BlasTech. The cooling coils are SoroSub and the emitter nozzle is Merr-Sonn. The extendable stock is off the older DC-15s. I think it shoulders better. The ghost sights are Czerka. This thing shoots through Padawan learner clans. That is a kandosii dart shooter you have there, ner vod. Bet it makes a melodic little 'ping' when it pounces off a breastplate."
  13. Quiet_Mandalorian Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 19, 2005
    star 5
    [face_laugh]

    Good to know. Some members here (myself included, occasionally) can tend to get a little worked up over what are essentially trivial differences of opinion.[face_thinking]

    Indeed it did.:cool:

    Again, excellent use of the real-world parallel. It certainly sounds like a cool concept, and very much in keeping with the character of someone who would presumably know his way around blasters.:D

    Ah, not too fond of the Verp, is he?:p

    For myself, I'm planning on giving one of my Mandos (yet to be introduced in my on-going story) a blaster based around a Chiss Charric. The fact that they apparently pack more kinetic energy in their bolts than a common blaster sounds intriguing, and useful.
  14. browwiw Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2007
    star 3
    The 'dart shooter' reference is to actual dart shooters. As for the Verpine...I'm honestly not too enthused with it. Sure, it's ballisticly superior to a blaster rifle (in Star Wars d20 a baseline blaster rifle does 3d8 damage and a Verpine does 6d6), but is the Verpine really worth it? The thing has a listed price of 15,000 credits and is extremely fragile (Break Difficulty: 10, as opposed to the E-11's 17). That means you're going to be replacing it. A lot. 15,000 credits isn't chump change. That's more expansive than some luxury speeders! You can buy 15 E-11's for the cost of one Verp! Heck, 50 Verp rounds cost 500 credits! What more, the Verpine is a rare, exotic, species-specific weapon. When that Feeorin mercenary kicks you down a flight of stairs and your Shattergun, uh, shatters...good luck replacing it.

    Granted, the Commandos and Nulls aren't going to have procurement problems because of Bard'ika. Whatever they need, everybody's favorite Fandalorian Jedi can have fall off the back of a speeder lorry (not literally, cause then they'd be pouring the Verps out of the crate).

    Which brings me to another point. I think fan and writer's expectations of Mandalorian gear has been skewed by the very wealthy or well funded examples we have been given. Jango was the top-payed bounty hunter of his time. Boba, by Bloodlines, had more money than the Space Pope. They could afford to be walking arsenals. Arsenals that are the pinnacle of miniaturization, at that. The Commandos and Nulls have the best in cutting edge armor and weapons because they are elite soldiers funded by a galactic gov't during wartime.

    I think your average Mandalorian who goes bounty hunting only after the crops are in isn't going to be nearly as well armed. He'll be packing the best that he can afford (and it'll be in excellent repair). Body armor, sturdy rifle, dependable side arm, sharp knife, and sharper wits. Mini-rocket firing knee-pads would be...prohibitively extravagant.

    I just debated the pros and cons of fictional weapons. Sob.
  15. OCDatabaseSock Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2004
    star 2

    Oh, I agree; and while very true...wouldn't you think that Mandalorian's are willing to "splurge" on high-ticket hardware, knowning the field of work they're in?

    Skirata and his men, Jango, and Boba aside; I'm willing to bet some Mandalorians have some pretty expensive kit as compared to a common military grunt, but then probably not as tough and flashy as their more famous brothers too.

    Take Boba's "pal" Beviin, he carries crush-gaunts; highly illegal, and I'm willing to bet quite expensive; yet we see him relating once or twice as his money being "tight".

    EDIT: sorry used, my OC sock again.
    -correllian_ale
  16. Quiet_Mandalorian Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 19, 2005
    star 5
    Ah.

    No kidding.

    Thing is though, that while it is quite fragile, it's really meant to be a dedicated sniper's weapon, rather than something you can bash a crimelord's Gamorrean guards upside the snout with, and used in that role, shooting and scooting from extreme long ranges, the weapon's fragility probably won't present a problem.

    I'll have to back up Corellian_Ale here.

    All of the Mandalorians we've seen in any media seem to be quite well-equipped, even if their monetary resources might not stretch to financing small fleets of personal transports like Boba's does, and The Clans of Boba Fett notes that "the fact that the Mando'ade carefully amass fortunes is proof that they do think very much beyond the present day, or at least plan for their children's welfare" and elsewhere, "Although modern banking practices mean most put their credits into shares and savings, they still invest much of their wealth in their armour and their weapons."

    Taking that into consideration, it would seem as though arms and armour are a priority for Mandalorians, or at least those who do any fighting at all, and that it's not at all unlikely that the majority of them are able to amass fairly sizable arsenals, and even afford to protect themselves with expensive Mandalorian iron.

    Honestly, I don't know whether to laugh or cry here...[face_thinking]
  17. Corran_Fett Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2005
    star 4
    I believe he's talking about the Shattergun, here, not the Sniper Rifle. I doubt the Verp Sniper was in a roleplay handbook in the first place. :p Your point for the Sniper stays, tho... as for the Shattergun, I tend to agree with browwiw.

    Yep. Also, you have to note that for many Mandalorians, superior weaponry and protection is probably a major factor to staying alive. A full set of equipment is (or should) be a one-time investment (apart from ammo), and take a bounty hunter or a merc, he'll earn money for every job he does, and pretty much every job involves some kind of fighting. So with the proper armament, he doesn't have problems making the day and can invest the earned money elsewhere.


    To be honest, I have to thank you for bringing up that point, browwiw, because I noticed that I forgot to pay attention to that factor in my fics--so far, that is, 'cause from now on I'll always keep in mind that everything has a price. :D


    EVERYONE think, for that matter) about a new challenge? I'm always open for suggestions (browwiw, feel free to PM me if you got any ideas :) ), and maybe with that new activity in here, we might get more than just two entries... [face_whistling]/>
  18. Quiet_Mandalorian Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 19, 2005
    star 5
    Write a story depicting a Mandalorian merc from the eyes of an outsider to the culture?
  19. browwiw Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2007
    star 3
    Well, there are fortunes and then there are fortunes. Not every Mando's father was the most sought out hunter of his time and the template for a clone army. 15,000 credits would be a fortune to a lot of people in the GFFA. 15,000 credits is more than enough seed money for basic armor, weapons, and living funds.


    I have running theory that buskar isn't all that prevalent, especially in certain time periods. Mandalorian iron, IMHO, is probably most common with the older clans that live on or near Mandalore itself. Buskar (like Verpine weapons) is terrible expensive, rare, and specific to a culture. If you have a fully buskar suit of armor, it probably been in your family for generations. (Admittedly, I'm probably sub-consciously equating buskar with the Valyrain steel swords of George RR Martin's Ice and Fire novels.)

    Mandalorian armor is probably really rare in the centuries following the KotOR Mandalorian Wars and during Palpatine's New Order. All those Crusaders took their buskar (not to mention the skills to refine it) to war and never came back (not to mention the fact that the Sith have 30 foot tomb door made of the stuff on Korriban). During the New Order, the Imperials took over the foundries for their own use (as mentioned by Boba in A Practical Man). I don't put forth theory to poo-poo anybody who has a character in full buskar, but to add a level of depth to any Mando'ade who may make do with just durasteel and plastoid plating.


    Refer back to my theory on the oldest clans having the most Mandalorian iron. Beviin is from the Mandalorian sector (can't remember if he's from Mandalore itself)and his family is Mandalorian. If the crushgaunts (not to mention his saber) aren't heirlooms, then he probably used his 'professional contacts' to procure them at a reasonable price withing the Mandalorian sector's black market.

    Right. I was referring to the handgun (which is described statistically in WotC's Arms and Equipment Guide). The sniper rifle variant...the baseline model would most likely be at least twice as expensive as the handgun. I don't even want to think about the price of Kal's customized rifles. And he had four of them. Of course, when you've got a decade of Cuy'val Dar back-pay you can afford to splurge. Most mercs would probably make do with carefully tuned mundane blaster longrifles.


    Should I even add my thoughts on the inherent drawbacks and impracticality of jet packs?
  20. Corran_Fett Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2005
    star 4
    Um... that was pretty much the topic of the last Challenge, or part of it. (there had to be a canon Mando in there) ;) [face_whistling]



    ANNOUNCEMENT!
    browwiw and ale have sent me two suggestions for a new topic, and I might as well add yours for consideration, QM, 'cause there is a slight difference between the last one, after all. I'll try to come up with an idea myself in the next few days, so we have four topics to choose from. (either we vote on what topic should be used for the Challenge, or I put all for options up and you can choose the topic you want)

    Thoughts, everybody?
  21. correllian_ale Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 20, 2005
    star 4
    I say four topics to pick from is a pretty sweet deal, then we can write whichever one bites us the hardest.


    Well, if a legally blind man can cause them to malfunction - accidentaly, I say they should have gotten rid of them at that point. :p
  22. Quiet_Mandalorian Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 19, 2005
    star 5
    Yes, but is it a fortune in Mandalorian terms?

    Perhaps not the safest thing at this point, since we don't have an official statement yet on the relative prevalance of Mandalorian iron accoutrements within the culture.

    We know the normally cash-strapped Beviin is virtually covered in the stuff, and while Fett calls it an "antique" and it may very well be something handed down to him from his father or another relative, his statement to Boba that "I never understood why you didn't go for beskar" would seem to imply that, at the presen time, it's not all that difficult to acquire, despite the ore having been heavily mined by the Empire.

    Of course, he is talking to Boba Fett, but the statement notably lacks a qualifier along the lines of "you could certainly afford it" or something to that effect, though again, the canonical truth of the matter could go either way.

    Can't say I really agree. For one thing, you can't go anywhere in the KotOR games without tripping over Mandalorians or ex-Mandalorians by the handful, so it would seem unlikely that the skills to refine beskar would have been lost, nor have Karen or Ryan made any mention of it being a "lost art", and for another, the construction of Freedon Nadd's tomb, several hundred years before the Great Sith War and the Mandalorian wars, doesn't seem to have affected the Mandos ability to outfit what must have been millions of troops in full armour of all types (and it's doubtful a 30 foot door hewn out of beskar have put any sort of dent in the supply if there were still significant deposits of it 4,000 years later), in either conflict and despite losses sustained in both .[face_thinking]

    Furthermore, the major utilization of Mandalorian iron by the Empire, so far as has been indicated in the EU, seems to have been (lightwhips and crushgaunts for aspiring Sith aside) the holding cells for Force-sensitive captives aboard the Lictor-class Dungeon Ships, which, apparently, seem to have fallen back into Mandalorian hands following the Galactic Civil War, and in any case, I'd imagine that hunting down stray articles of Mandalorian iron appropriated by the Empire during the occupation would probably be something of a priority for far-ranging Mandalorian mercs in the years following the defeat of the Empire, rather like the hunt by many European countries to recover their art treasures stolen by the Nazis after WWII.

  23. browwiw Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2007
    star 3
    You missed the point of my statement. 15,000 credits is a fortune to anybody. Not all Mandalorians can be incredibly wealthy. Not all of them should be incredibly wealthy. It would ruin the mystique and be kind of silly. They'd all have retired by their mid-30's. Do we really want the entire population of Mandalorians to be walking Mary-Sue tanks?


    Just because we don't have evidence of something not existing doesn't mean it has to exist. That's a logical fallacy. Until we get an official statement (which we don't particularly need) we can use our own rational sense. Beskar is a rare and expansive commodity. Not everybody can have it. Then, instead of being the 'best', it would be the standard. Rodian street punks would be running around in beskar. We have to draw the availability line somewhere.

    You don't beskar too become cortosis, do you? Everybody and his re-incarnated cloned cousin has a cortosis something or other nowadays.



    And then Revan or the Exile kills them. My point was that thousands (maybe tens of thousands) Mandalorian warriors went off to crusade. With them they took significant resources including armor, weapons, ships, and money. Not to mention the skills necessary to train the next generation of Mandalorians. Then they just don't come back. A whole generation lost. That means a lot of Mandalorian homesteads without the resources needed to not only operate properly but also deal with the all most certain reprisals brought on them by societies hurt by the Crusade. There had to a lot of ill-will toward Mandalorians as a people after their defeat prior to the events of KotOR.

    As a side-note, Karen's emphasis on clan and family actually makes me somewhat hostile towards Ordo's Neo-Crusaders on Dxun. They are still vainly playing at being a fraternity/cult while their families are picking up the pieces of catastrophically failed military campaign (and I'm actually formulating a storyline involving the generation of Mandalorian "fatherless sons" who take up bounty hunting to fund their struggling communities). The closest real-world parallel would be the American south after their defeat in the Civil War.



    Not saying it was 'lost', but production would have been slowed down. All the skilled adults who knew how to forge beskar would have died in the wars, gone merc, or joined Ordo's self-involved boy scouts on Dxun. It was an art that would have had taken years to refine to its former greatness. I'd hazard to say that's why we saw a change from full-on Gothic style body armor of the Crusaders to the more light weight armor of the Super Commandos.

    Yeah, millions of suits of full armor that's buried in the mud of ancient battlefields or floating in orbit around Outer Rim planets with the debris of pummeled assault fleets. That's a lot of armor that didn't get recycled back into the fighting population. Freedon Nad's
  24. Quiet_Mandalorian Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 19, 2005
    star 5
    No, I understood what you meant. I was just calling into question that that amount would be seen as a "fortune" from a Mandalorian perspective, given that to be as well armed as they generally are they'd have to be regularly exchanging fairly significant sums of money.

    Not all Mandalorians are mercenary warriors. Those that are, would, like medieval knights, have to deal in sums of money that would seem extravagant to other people, because that's what their equipment cost, they were expected to have it, and they'd just have set a priority on acquiring it over other concerns.

    Something of a moot point I think, considering that we do, in fact, have evidence of the item in question existing. We just don't know exactly how difficult-to-obtain it is.

    All other disagreements aside, I can't for the life of me imagine that Mandos would go around selling beskar to outsiders, and especially not when it's been refined into armour.

    Every Jedi and his Padawan has a magical light-sword that can cut through virtually anything, and which, furthermore, they can generally assemble out of spare parts if they have the proper sort of crystal on hand. Should we rule that the majority of Jedi must use common vibroswords in order to preserve the mystique of the lightsaber and its status as a rare and expensive commodity on the market?

    *sighs*

    Not in all cases...

    Some good points, all together, and not ones I'll argue with.

  25. browwiw Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2007
    star 3
    Again, I bring up that there are fortunes and then there are fortunes. Many, many knights were the sons of poor country nobles. They got by on basic equipment and sold their services and loyalty to more wealthy Houses. Entering the tournament lists was a big gamble for your average hedge knight. If he got unhorsed in the joust he lost his armor and horse: the things that made him a knight. Most couldn't afford to pay the ransom to get their equipment back. Conversely, if a country knight could unhorse a rich knight he was set for the year cause he got all his gear. Poor knights and sellswords were often the most dangerous and skilled warriors because they had nothing but themselves to rely on.

    Digression: you've brought up medieval knights a couple times. You might like George RR Martin's "A Song of Ice and Fire" series. HUGE, but worth it.

    The "Greedos-in-beskar" comment was a bit of hyperbole on my part. I don't want it to get to that.

    Double-bladed lightsabers, curved-hilt lightsabers, dual-phase lightsabers, great lightsabers, short lightsabers, shoto lightsabers, underwater lightsabers, fiber-cord linked lightsabers, forked lightsabers, lightsaber canes, lightwhips, (inhales sharply) tonfu-style lightsabers, knee/elbow pad lightsabers (wish I was making that up), and light halberds.

    Yes. The lightsaber mystique is dead. Let's not repeat the problem with Mandalorian armor. Otherwise, we're gonna get a Cathar Jedi with a beskar skeleton...

    Sounds like a plot bunny to me.


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