Index All Helmet, No Head - The Mandalorian Discussion Group and Index---New stories, new discussion--9/2!

I'm really sorry, but this lack of activity is kinda annoying me. I'm totally fine if none of you found time to do this by the deadline, but PLEASE, people, tell me. You're leaving me here in the dark, coming to conclusions that probably are all far away from the the real deal.

The Deadline is now officially set at April 29th, 11:59 PM TFN Standard Board Time (PST, I'd guess).

If anyone thinks he can't complete his entry by that time, either post or PM me that you need more time. I won't be extending the deadline any further, but I will be accepting entries after the deadline, as long as I'm told there will be some.

I'm sorry if that sounds bad now, but I think we really need to get things moving, and we will be able to discuss new things (like the entries, or topics the entries spawn) when this challenge his over.

Thank you.

 

Right now I'm typing like mad in a net club because my krifing harddisk CRASHED!!!!

 

As much as I hate to disappoint Corran, I feel compelled to admit I'm not even close to finishing. Between my health being up and down; and poor planning/organizing at the beginning; I've only really started to get in gear with anything board related the past few days.

I wouldn't want to put any discussions on hold on my account though; so go on with any discussions you had in mind, and I'll pop by and add my two cents.

I mainly just read during Topic-Time anyway, trying to absorb the knowledge of you more "in-the-know" folks. [face_suck-up]

 

and I just plain suck.

 

Well, I hope that doesn't mean everything's lost. Have you tried recovering your harddisk? And anyway, there are probably more important things for you to do than write this little fanfic...^^

It's cool. As long as you let us know, there's nothing bad with that. As I said, we're not that strict with those deadlines, and you can always post your story another time.

If you turn out to be the only one who's submitting an entry by tommorrow night, you don't.

 

Alright, I must say, I didn't expect that much entries, but none at all? I gave you more than 2 months, people, and it's a pity to see such great topics "wasted".

On the other hand, the fact that both ale and Garak have something much larger growing out of this is very, very pleasing; we need every single new quality Mando fiction, and in this case I don't give a damn about wasted challenges - they were just made for inspiration, as plot bunnies, to get something new, and it looks like it works. Even browwiw seems to be coming back to fanfiction and is working something out.

Anyhow, I'll be glad about any fics that might find their way into this index in the future, but now we really need to get on. I'm always taking suggestions for new challenge topics, but now let's get this thread rolling again.

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[b][hl=#00dd00]NEW DISCUSSION TOPIC:[/hl] [color=#009900][i]Mando'ade, the scattered Empire and the Rise of the New Republic[/i][/color][/b][/blockquote]This topic came to my mind thanks to [b]browwiw[/b]. A while back, he posted a link in this thread to a new Mando RPG over here, which has died down by now due to inactivity. Anyway, the gamemaster wanted to start a new RPG, and asked us for scenario/plot suggestions. One of [b]browwiw[/b]'s ideas was to set the game in post-RotJ, at the time the Empire was scattered and warlords like Zsinj and Terradoc took control of parts of it.

Now, what comes to question is how Mandos and Mando merc groups thought about that. We know that in the (pre-)OT-era, Mandos rather had trouble with the Empire (their attempt to occupy Mandalore and exploit the Mandalorian iron resources, etc.) and especially the then-Mandalore Fenn Shysa had good relations to the Rebellion and later NR. Now, surely some warlords started hiring the scum of the universe, and maybe even paid enough to get a Mando's attention. What do you think? Did larger groups of Mandalorian mercenaries (I think it's save to say that some individuals [i]did[/i] do this) pick up the Imperial banner and do the dirty work for an Imperial Warlord? And generally, what did Mandos do between the OT and the NJO?

Lemme hear your thoughts, people, and if you have any other topic for discussion in mind, in case this on isn't "exploited", just post it or PM me. [face_wink] [hr]

 

Well in my fic I have one Mando who says they should be fighting for the Empire, since the Sith rule the Empire and Mando'ade have fought beside Sith before and they owe the Jedi a beating for Galidraan. I don't see why other Mando's wouldn't think the same way, what with a Jedi as the rebellion's hero. Some might have been gunning for Skywalker or just selling their services to the Empire.

 

Mhh... good point with Galidraan, but I doubt the Mandos quite liked the Imperials in their Sector, either. Besides, the Jedi pretty much got their "beating" during the Purge.

And I don't really want this to be a "Whose side are the Mandos on"-topic. Mandos could be considered "grey", they normally try not to choose either of the other sides as real allies.

Then again, this point is more than valid. Besides, I got to admit, that two of my major OCs (Ronan and Ara) both despise of the NR/GA in general, however due to other reasons, and in their time-setting, the Imperial suppression is probably long forgotten.

Anyhow, we're getting off-topic. There are still those despots...

 

I know this may sound a little demeaning, but I almost picture only a handful hiring themselves out to various warlords, or other crime syndictaes, etc.

At this point in his career, Fett is known as "the man" to get the tough job done, so why not use his fame to hire themselves out as a sort of economical version of Fett. Similar armor, similar weaponry, same dedication; BUT a bit easier on the wallet. (a la Jodo Kast)

I would assume as per their culture, the majority stayed the course at home, only waiting for either side to request their services.

Of course the Empire wouldn't with their legions of Stormtroopers to spend. And the Rebellion I'm sure didn't want to soil themselves with a very storied, yet bias history of the Mandos. Henceforth they really didn't come into play until late into the Vong war when their own well-being was threatened.

 

Well, not to argue apples and oranges, but only a handful of Mandalorians are active, full time mercenaries and bounty hunters, anyway. So, are you saying that only a handful of the Mandos as a cultural community, or a handful of a handful (also known as a metric pinch) of those that are full time mercs?

As for the stormtrooper angle, after Endor (and especially the destruction of Cardia), the Imperial Warlords only have a finite number of stormtroopers. Whether you believe stormies are clones or recruits (or a mix there of), the vast military industrial complex just isn't there anymore to crank them out. So, competent mercenary companies of any stripe would be in high demand. Mandalorians could have been hired to train new conscripts or even as templates for new clone soldier by enterprising Imperial officers. Unless I have my canon and fanon crossed, I do believe Palpatine had the stormtrooper cloning facilities decentralized from Kamino and spread out around the Outer Rim and even on Coruscant. Just as sector navy Admirals tried to make themselves warlords, some cloning facility commander might have styled himself as a Clonemaster.

Mostly, though, I think the attitude of 'Nothing Personal' would have won out. A massive new market for mercenaries had opened up and somebody was going to reap the benefits. Might as well be a Mandalorian. Even if you got paid in Imperial military surplus and starfighters, you'd come out ahead.

 

Well we know Thrawn used only his best to make clones from the Mount Tantis facility. I don't see why he wouldn't recrut some mando's, after all Thrawn IS aware of how deadly the mandalorians are.

 

Yep, I think that basically sums it up.

I think you and ale are probably up to the same thing, because I gather that ale is talking about all Mandalorians, and the said handful would be some of Mando mercs. Everyone already settled in the Mandalore Sector would probably indeed stay there, sit out and see that their civilization grows again, while scattered groups would live up to the Manda in whichever way they felt it right.

I could see Mandos as trainers for new Stormtrooper recruits, but generally, I don't think they would go for cloning templates. A good portion Mandalorians saw the original Jango clones as dar'manda'e and aruetiise, not part of the Manda, not Mandalorians like them. Of course, there can always be individuals that think otherwise, either overall positively about cloning, or going by "Nothing Personal" to make good profit.

If anyone got a Mando to become a clone template, I think it'd be Thrawn, yes.


Overall, I think this era will stay pretty much in mystery and shaded when it comes to Mandos, because apart Shadows of Mindor, I doubt a new novel set in New Republic era is going to come out and feature Mandos. We might, if we're very lucky, see them in NJO, but apart from that, only pre-PT, Dark Times or post-NJO. Had Mandos been as popular as now back then, then we might've seen more of them when Bantam era was still going on, but not now, at least not in that timeframe.

 

So, just for the fun of it...

Does any of you have Mando fics in progress?

I don't want any of you to rush it, I'd just like to know your status, and if we're gonna see something in future (when exactly is not important, just that there will be new Mando fics). Maybe with Sacrifice, which should be featuring at least two Mandos, things will get a little rolling again.

Looks like my discussion topics aren't really that good, so PLEASE people, suggest your own. You don't even need to PM, just post your questions right away.

And if you have any troubles with your character or WIP fics, why not post them here and hear some other Fandos' thoughts on it?

Really, I'm glad with anything, as long as we get this thing rolling again.

 

Well since I couldn't save the other fic (I'm just glad I managed to save most the stuff I had on that hard) I've begun work on another Mando fic. It's set in the Mandalorian Wars (I love that era and the KotOR comics are fantastic and a great help) and will be featuring some new characters and the ones you know and all ready. Also there will be two characters who will very familiar names and I put them there because I wondered what those particular family lines would be doing at that time. I've writen only 4 pages so far and I haven't even gotten to anything important in the story. It might take me a while since this story might show battles on multiple fronts.

PS: Am I complicating my life. Possibly.

 

A new addition to the index!

Darth_Garak came up with an excellent new Mando one-poster (quite a long one at that), set again in the KotOR era. So, everybody check out:

Title: Breakthrough
Author: Darth_Garak
Characters: Canderous Ordo, Kelborn, OCs
Timeframe: Mandalorian Wars (KotOR)
Genre: One-Poster, Action
Summary: The Mandalorian Wars continue to tear the galaxy apart. After the fall of Balmorra the Republic is desperate to stop the Mandalorian advance but will they succeed?
Notes: -
Status: Complete

Anybody got an idea how to get this thread rolling again?

 

I've got an idea for Mando dicussion: Mando Morality.

We already know that Mandos frown on premarital relations. There's canon support that Mando'ade are very tolerant of sexual preference. And loyalty is the number one quality to which Mandos are judged, loyalty to Mand'lor, loyalty to your aliit, and loyalty to your fellow Mando.

However what about the wide grey area left open? What defines murder to Mando'ade? Is Mando society Might for Right or Might makes Right?

Do Mando'ade mind smuggling and smugglers? That's a question I'm trying to ponder. I've got an OC I'm writing who's something of a Mando smuggler with extenuating circumstances. Just wonderin' if the ol'buire back on Mandalore are going to be crying themselves to sleep at night saying, "He was such a good boy...then he fell in with a bad crowd...Oh, Brikase, why couldn't he have taken up something respectable...like mercing for Hutts?"

 

Mano'ade and their morals, hmm.
I always thought that as survival trait the early marriage thing made sense, I háve no refernce materials handy, but if they marry really early, let's say 16/17, frowning on sex before marriage might have to do more with the age of the kids that the actual act.
Of course, turning the kids legally adult aged 12 doesn't make much sense then. Or maybe they just want to be sure they future Mandos got some fighting practice before they have to settle to raise kids.
As before, I have no evidence of anything.

Muder and smuggling. Maybe it gets easier, if we distinguish between morals at work and morals inside their own society. Killing under contract is most likely not murder, what are Mandos trained to do after all? But killing other Mandos could be a completely different thing.

Smuggling, I don't know. Is there a general tendence in their culture leaning to 'means justify ends' or gainst it?

 

Thank you, Errant, thank you for bringing life back to this moldy thread.

And with a very interesting topic indeed.

In general, I don't think Mandos have problems with smuggling, unless living goods (e.g. slavery) or spice (drugs) are involved. Of course you can't say Mandos are okay with all smuggling that isn't illegal, because frankly, smuggling is illegal, but when you compare smuggling goods, supplies, and armament to smuggling spice, slaves, banned weaponry (e.g. black-market stuff like disruptors), and generally stuff that isn't morally acceptable, you'll see what I'm trying to say.

I think that Mandos can be quite tolerant and, more than that, understanding. When a kid wants to choose his own way, I think only few Mando parents will stop him, because they think the boy should get what's best for him personally. And in the case that a child turns really bad-ass and immoral hut'uun, as described below, Mando parents won't start crying like you said (I know, yours was for the case of smuggling), but will start taking action and do all in their power to stop their rampaging kid - if the kid can't be brought back on the right path, it's not unlikely they will put an end to their own offspring.


I think you can't put all Mandos in a single category when it comes to questions of morality. The execption proves the rule, after all, and there are always Death Watch type Mandos, dar'manda (say: Mandos gone rogue) and other ex-Mandos that turned "bad guy".

Surely, killing in general isn't that much of an issue to most, only when it comes to the way of killing. Remember Walon Vau, the "torturer" in Triple Zero? Surely, Vau isn't your common type of Mando, but we see Kal in some kind of conflict with Vau's methods, IIRC. Kal isn't the Mando with the clean, corpse-less history, either, but he only approves of Vau's doing because of the solid results, and here we go again with "means justify the ends", as Lanna pointed out.

The problem for us is to see where the borderline between morally acceptable and unacceptable is. A lot of Mandos would completely disapprove with Vau's methods, imho, but also quite some might even go further than Vau, but I think it generally stops when we come to unnecessary brutality and cruel methods (methods that are only for the joy of the torturer and don't really help to get results) and things like massacres, bloodbaths, rape, and also violence against other Mandos (unless the "other Mandos" are rather roguish types themselves and deserve it).

 

On Premarital Sex, I always thought it as a function of their deep love and desire for children. It is the parents' ultimate responsibility to take care of any children. Sure, family can step in to care for them in dire situations such as unaviodable absences or death, but beyond that family would frown on a parent shirking their duties. So since a teenager wouldn't have to full ability or maturity to support and raise a child, Mando'ade frown on risky behaviour that might lead to an unplanned pregnancy.

Lanna's got it down pat. Early marriage is a survival instinct for Mandos. It allows them get all the children they can while insuring that they will be loved and supported.

On Smuggling...really, Corran...do you think a Mando would have a problem with smuggling black market weapons? Your average Mando's got a cargo container of illegal weaponry on him. I think the Mando concern on arms running is that your customer doesn't end up with more weapons than your clan. Eh, ner vod?

I can easily see the prohibition on slavery and spice. Those can't anything but degrade a civilization and garner a bad repuation for those involved. I take it that Mando'ade would do well to ensure none of their clan was involved.

Now, the idea of morals towards Mando'ade versus morals towards everyone else could be a bit sketchy. I mean if you look at the chivalric system of Middle Ages its laws (more suggestions than actual guidelines to paraphrase Cap'n Barbossa) were in reality something of a double standard. You had to be a upstanding citizen around your people, but everyone else was fair game. And if you look at some of the more...questionable opinions during that period all the rape and plunder was just dandy as long as they were European and Christian. In the hindsight of history was that right? No, but it can easily be reached in the logic of 'us versus them.'

 

Good points there, too. Family and clan are of highest value to a Mando, after all.

I've really been talking nasty weaponry like disruptors, weapons of mass destruction, biochemical toxins and biological agents that cause contagions like the Krytos virus or other epidemics that can wipe out a whole species. I'm talking "highly illegal" and "banned for best reasons" here, but sure less hazardous black market products aren't that much of an issue.

I think that to aruetiise, Mandos are indeed rather reclusive and want to be left alone. They're like Swiss, doing their own thing and trying to stay outta trouble, at least post-NJO era and seen as a nation. It really depends on the individual, though. Some Mandos may be aruetii-haters, even if the non-Mandos in question are totally alright people. But I think that when it comes to people doing real bad things, it doesn't matter to a Mando if the evil guy is Mando or not, unlike Jedi, who always try to get back the "good in him". Even if he's family and has like caused a massacre in a whole village just because it was to his whim, his relatives won't much hesitate to deliver the killing blow.

 

I wasn't going for an 'us vs. them' (which always becomes tricky once you get down to a personal level) but more a work vs. leisure attitude. Can't see one of them on the battle field goin 'oops, shot you dead, and there goes another, sorry for that big hole in your head....' but then that would be work. You get paid for it, you do it.Of course then it would boil down to money in the end. And I think each had to chose on his own where he drew the line what work to accpet and what not.
Maybe the part of 'moral' would have to happen before you accet any mission, and then you just go along your happy way not thinking what consequences it has for anybody. Think first, act second, and don't mix them together.

For the times they are not on duty, a different set of morals would apply, like you don't just go around shooting people, and you think of the consequences all the time.

Am I making sense at all?

 

You're saying that there are two instances in which Mandos take a moral stand. One in everyday life when they decide not to go around town shooting people just for the heck of it (unless they are part of the Death Watch or Mando Wars Era....since they seem kinda bent on wiping out the Republic....but that doesn't count, the Sith are behind that mess) and the second instance is when they take a job. It's one thing go save some hutt's money or whatnot and totally different thing to kidnap a child and hold it for ransom, all the time knowing that you might have to kill the child.

Boba Fett said "'Never use your kids, scumbag. Never." to H'buk in Bloodlines. Two other interesting comment Fett made were : "I am sorry for the deaths of the innocent. But that happens in a war, Leia Organa. The innocent die in wars, and your side should not have started this one." and "I've killed virtually everything that moves, one time or another, a hundred different species, sentient and dumb; if it breathes I've probably killed it or something like it. But I've killed clean. I've killed without stretching it out." I know this is all from Fett's point of view, and he isn't as much a Mando as he should be, but his words sound true to the Mando culture.

 

Yes, that's phrased much better, thanks.
And I think they consider BEFORE taking a job wherther it's in the limits of their morals, because after taking it they're commited.

EDIT: Okay, hoping to make sense now.

I tried to find the word 'wrong' in the vocabulary list and didn't.
We're used to think in opposites, light/dark, good/bad right/wrong

So what would the implcations be if there is no such thing a 'wrong'. Not right is always impling now/in this case. Then things would always be implicitly acceptable depending on cicrumstances.

 

I always hesitate to talk about the morality and ethics of fictional cultures because, well...they're fictional and we can only interpret them from our own moral filters and preferences. As real people, we believe what we believe and try to make their entertainment preferences somehow play well with those beliefs.

Attempting to make them jive with real-world religions or secular philosophies is futile. It won't work because they are fictional and, thus, inscrutable. Mandalorians are Mandalorians and we can only know of them what the author has revealed to us. Consider this a disclaimer and a call for rationality (not that I have found anything irrational in this thread...but, hey, we've all suffered through the Literature forum).

That said, here's my thoughts.

I think it's possible to be a good Mandalorian and still be a bad person. That is, you can follow the precepts of your culture, speak the language, and 'walk the walk', but still be a murderous sack if kark. Case in point: Ghez Hokun. It could be argued that Ghez is the perfect Mandalorian, interpreting and applying his culture literally. That doesn't stop him from being a cold blooded killer that weighs life through the application of force. Not even the Death Watch could stomach him. And though it's never brought up, I think it's very telling he wasn't chosen to be a Cuy'val Dar (I'd hate to think what his Commandos would have been like).

I like to believe that Mandalorians put a premium on fairness and respect. Why don't they like chemical and biological weapons? IMHO, it's because it doesn't give the enemy a chance to fight back. You can't battle a germ or molecule. Even the most meager of enemies should be given the chance defend themselves and die on their feet. My idea is that the Mandalorians looked back on all the atrocities they committed in the Mandalorian Wars (nearly wiping out the Cathars, nuking and entire planet) and said to themselves "Is this what we want to be? Is winning worth diminishing yourself? What does this say about us as a people?" Again, that's just my theory.

As for Mandalorians firing on Mandalorians working for an opposing force...I think they'd do it. A contract is a contract and nobody would hire Mandalorians anymore if they whelched over sentimentality. It would probably me a clean fight, possibly even ritualized, but it would be a fight.

 

*tries to fight off evil plot bunny with a stick*