Alleged Contradictions in the Bible

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Grand_Moff_Monkey, Jan 22, 2002.

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  1. Jedi_Master201 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2001
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    "How could sin exist in God's presence though? Down here they sin and are condemned to death, up there they aren't condemned to death for the same thing? That's justice?"


    Sin can't exist in God's presence eternally. Through Jesus's sacrfice, God can forgive us for the sins we commit. And no, they aren't condemned. They were already raised from the condemnation placed upon them.


    "And since free will exists in heaven,it exists in hell too, right?"


    I don't know what hell is. But I can say this: The ones that go to heaven choose to. Those that go to hell, in the same way, choose to. Whether you have free will or not doesn't quite matter. It's in this part of life that you make the choice.
  2. cydonia Jedi Grand Master

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    Jun 6, 2001
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    "Whether you have free will or not doesn't quite matter."

    Why not? In heaven, you can say, "Jesus, i'm against you." But they will be forgiven. If there is free will in hell, then people could say, "Jesus, now i'm for you." But they won't be forgiven. So i guess once you're in heaven, you can do whatever you want, over and over and not be sent to hell. Once you're in hell, that's it. You can't sin against the devil over and over and get to heaven.

    Free will? If someone sins in heaven and wants to go to hell, they are denied? And if someone in hell wants to go to heaven, they are denied?
  3. Jedi_Master201 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2001
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    This is not a very good argument. What does this have to do with anything?


    I've only got one thing to say: You can't make a choice when you're dead (spiritual death = hell).
  4. cydonia Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2001
    star 5
    You don't understand what i'm arguing?

    You say free will exists in heaven, and you've usually defined free will as experiencing the consequences of your actions. If the same actions in the after life don't have the consequences we have in this life, how can there be free will in heaven?
  5. cydonia Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2001
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    This is a long one, scroll ahead if you aren't interested.

    From losingmyreligion.com

    Free Will: Interview One
    by Darcy West
    reprinted by permission


    Cherry: If you do not like worship of God, you will not like heaven.

    Darcy West: So you believe that some people will sin in heaven?

    Cherry: No. There will not be sin in heaven

    Darcy West: Oh, okay. Can we back this up a little, please?

    Cherry: Sure, backup.

    Darcy West: Thanks. Does free will mean that you have the ability to choose whether or not to love God?

    Cherry: You have the power to choose -- that is what free will is.

    Darcy West: God could program you to love him, right?

    Cherry: Yes, Darcy he could. He wants you to choose Him.

    Darcy West: Cherry, so without free will, you'd just be a robot?

    Cherry: Yes Darcy, if God chose for you.

    Darcy West: I agree. So do you believe there will be free will in heaven?

    Cherry: For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. For now we know in part, but then shall we know in truth.

    Darcy West: Yes but I am talking about the ability to choose....Cherry, you said that without the ability to choose for ourselves...our love wouldn't be real love. Why would God strip that choice from you in heaven?

    Cherry: God is not going to remove that choice. Do you believe God would cheat?

    Darcy West: Well that's why I asked whether or not you'd have free will in heaven.

    Cherry: You will have no need of it in heaven. For all is good there.

    Darcy West: Wasn't heaven all good when Lucifer was there?

    Cherry: Darcy, yes but Lucifer wanted to be God.

    Darcy West: Cherry, well perhaps you will someday want to be god?

    Cherry: Not I. My sincerest desire is to serve God. To be free from sin.

    Darcy West:: Well perhaps not you, but someone else then. My point is that Lucifer's sin proves that having everything good in heaven will not prevent sin. See what I mean?

    Cherry: Darcy: Nothing imperfect can be in the sight of God.

    Darcy West: I understand that is what you believe. So if someone sins in heaven, will they then be kicked out?

    Cherry: You will be removed from the occasion to sin in heaven. No one is kicked out. Once saved. Always saved.

    Darcy West: That's a slogan. Does having a savior prevent you from sinning?

    Cherry: Having a savior prevents me from being lost.

    Darcy West: But having a savior doesn't prevent you from sinning now...why would it prevent you from sinning in heaven?

    Cherry: Darcy, I am 70 years old. I am on "borrowed" time. I do not have time for this.

    Darcy West: Thank you for answering my questions, Cherry.

    Free Will: Interview Two
    by Darcy West
    reprinted by permission


    Darcy West: Crunchy, do you believe God gave you free will?

    Crunchy: yes i do

    Darcy West: And what does free will mean to you?

    Crunchy: you have a choice to believe in god or not

    Darcy West: Exactly. You have a choice whether or not to love God, don't you?

    Crunchy: yes i do

    Darcy West: If loving God was simply programmed into you, it wouldn't really be love, would it?

    Crunchy: its not progamed , i made the choice

    Darcy West: I understand. So do you believe there will be free will in heaven?

    Crunchy: don't know. never been their. devil had free will in heaven. yes i probale will.

    Darcy West: Crunchy, so what will happen when you sin?

    Crunchy: can't sin in heaven.

    Darcy West: Can't sin? But if you have free will, what will prevent you from sinning?

    Crunchy: won't be anything their to sin with.

    Darcy West: Nothing to sin with? What does that mean exactly? I'm getting visions of a padded cell.

    Crunchy: choose this day who you will serve. that's all you need to know

    Darcy West: Thank you very much for chatting, Crunchy. Goodbye.

    Free Will: Interview Three
    by Darcy West
    reprinted by permission


    Darcy West: Do Christians believe that they have freewill?

    Sasha: Absolutely.

    Darcy West: What does free will mean to you?

    Sasha: I can do right or I can do wrong, my choice. I choose to serve God.

    Dar
  6. IellaWessiriNRI Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2001
    star 4
    Why not? In heaven, you can say, "Jesus, i'm against you."

    The point is, you wouldn't.
  7. IellaWessiriNRI Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2001
    star 4
    Ok. Fundamentally, the problem with that (the stuff in your long post) is that "free will" is defined as the ability to choose to love God. The abilitiy to sin isn't exactly free will. God gives us free will concerning loving Him and sinning while we are on earth. When in heaven, I believe we will still get free will in terms of loving Him - but the point is, if we didn't love Him, we wouldn't be there. As for sin... as JM201 has pointed out, there really won't be opportunity to sin in heaven. Whether or not we can is sort of irrelevant, because we won't.
  8. Jedi_Master201 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2001
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    As "Dale" said, you make the choice down here. If you really chose God, you wouldn't sin in heaven. Out of that love for God. If you would sin in heaven, you wouldn't be kicked out, but rather corrected. You were already forgiven of that sin, so there is no condemnation.


    If in heaven you just outright said you choose death over God, you wouldn't have really loved God in the first place, but rather you loved what saying that you love God could do for you.
  9. cydonia Jedi Grand Master

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    Jun 6, 2001
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    You guys are making good points, but i see it like this. People fall in love, get married. Many divorce. Since they get divorced, it means they were never in love?
  10. Jedi_Master201 Jedi Grand Master

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    May 5, 2001
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    I believe so.


    When you get married, you do it for better or for worse. If you get divorced, you probably only loved the person for what they could do for you.
  11. IellaWessiriNRI Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2001
    star 4
    Well... "love" has different definitions. In English, "love" isn't clearly defined. In Greek, however, the different types of love all have different names. There's phileo (brotherly love), eros (sexual love), and agape, which is basically eternal, undying, committed love. I think there might be one more... but I forget. But basically, the couple might have been in "eros," or maybe "phileo," but it wasn't agape. Agape love is the love of the church: between brothers and sisters in Christ, between the believer and Christ, and between Christ and the Church.
  12. Jedi_Master201 Jedi Grand Master

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    May 5, 2001
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    Right. You said it better than I did. :)
  13. Palpazzar Jedi Master

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    Aug 11, 2000
    star 4
    Also, sin cannot exist in heaven because those there will be innocent again. It will be like the Garden of Eden except there will be no one to lead people astray. Thus, we will have no knowledge of sin, and no one that will "enlighten" to what sin is.
  14. cydonia Jedi Grand Master

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    Jun 6, 2001
    star 5
    So we'll forget who we were on earth? We won't have our memories with us?
  15. IellaWessiriNRI Jedi Master

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    Jan 3, 2001
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    So we'll forget who we were on earth? We won't have our memories with us?

    How did you draw that conclusion?
  16. Angelic_308 Jedi Grand Master

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    Jan 2, 2002
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    I don't see any contradictions in the Bible.
  17. cydonia Jedi Grand Master

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    Jun 6, 2001
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    "Thus, we will have no knowledge of sin, and no one that will "enlighten" to what sin is."
  18. IellaWessiriNRI Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2001
    star 4
    "Thus, we will have no knowledge of sin, and no one that will "enlighten" to what sin is."

    Knowledge of sin, as in, we won't understand disobedience to God, or how we go about disobeying God.
  19. Darkside_Spirit Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 3
    JM201, am I correct in thinking that you see hell as being spiritual death (eternal unconsciousness)? That's a very different doctrine indeed to traditionalist hell.

    Other people who subscribe to fiery-damnation or separation-from-god hell (i.e. forms of hell other than eternal unconsciousness), please don't confuse things by describing that as "spiritual death". Spiritual death is total cessation of existence. There's absolutely no need to cloud the issue by using it as a euphemism for damnation.

    Now, I say: you are all concerned with what heaven is like, how wonderful it is up there, what people have to do to get there, whether sin is possible in this perfect place, etc etc. Now, I ask you:

    (1) Are you sure that your belief in heaven isn't simply psychological idealism, i.e. you believe in it because you need something to give your life meaning and you want to believe there is a bettter place?

    (2) In all your deliberations about paradise and how wonderful it will be, aren't you wasting your real, tangible life away on a deceptive, idealistic hope of something that you will never enjoy?

    Humanity will be better off, and people will live their one and only life to the full, when people finally learn to stop following magical thinking and hopes of an imagined heaven and start concentrating on the problems at hand.
  20. Jedi_Master201 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2001
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    No, I don't presume to know what hell is. All I know is that it is totally devoid of God. That is pretty bad.


    "(1) Are you sure that your belief in heaven isn't simply psychological idealism, i.e. you believe in it because you need something to give your life meaning and you want to believe there is a bettter place?"


    Actually, this life hasn't been too bad for me. Only 1 person that was really close to me has passed away, I've always been well of financially, I'm healthy. I have a good life. Why, then, would I need to make up some "better" place? Some "pradise"?


    "(2) In all your deliberations about paradise and how wonderful it will be, aren't you wasting your real, tangible life away on a deceptive, idealistic hope of something that you will never enjoy?"


    Actually, no. I live my life not looking forward to the future while letting the present die around me, but by looking forward to the future, while making the best of the present. That means making it the best for my life, as well as for the lives of others.




  21. IellaWessiriNRI Jedi Master

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    Jan 3, 2001
    star 4
    Humanity will be better off, and people will live their one and only life to the full, when people finally learn to stop following magical thinking and hopes of an imagined heaven and start concentrating on the problems at hand.

    Right... the belief that humanity will solve all of its problems through sheer willpower. To me, that seems even more idealistic than believing in heaven. Why not accept the fact that things are the way they are, corruption, crime, and all that other bad stuff included, and rely on something (Someone) higher than humanity? This isn't to say that we're supposed to do nothing, but we shouldn't believe that we can do everything.
  22. Darth Geist Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    "the belief that humanity will solve all of its problems through sheer willpower."

    "This isn't to say that we're supposed to do nothing, but we shouldn't believe that we can do everything."

    No, but it damn well doesn't hurt to try. Not "willpower," Iella; teamwork, dedication, disregard for our petty differences over borders and who God loves more. If we pool our many talents and stand together, humanity can accomplish whatever it sets out to do.

    Anyone who wants to can sit and wait till they die and go elsewhere; I, for one, am going to do what I can to make things better in the only home we know is real: Here. If God doesn't care about that, then He doesn't have to, and if He only rewards those who kiss up to him correctly, then I may be out of luck--but when my time comes, I'll go knowing that somewhere in the world, someone is a little better off because of me. That's what I want, and eternal death be damned.
  23. IellaWessiriNRI Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2001
    star 4
    If God doesn't care about that, then He doesn't have to, and if He only rewards those who kiss up to him correctly, then I may be out of luck

    *sigh*

    Let's get one thing straight. Christians are all for doing all that we can in this world. Good works are a good thing. Imagine that. However, we face up the reality that our best, although good, is not good enough for God. He recongnizes the effort, but has provided an easier way, through His Son. Instead of constantly trying to live up to a perfect standard, and failing miserably, we rely on Him to be our perfection. However, we still place great emphasis on doing good, i.e. obeying His commandments, following His will, etc. The Bible specifically warns against having the "I'm forgiven so I'll just go around sinning" mentality.
  24. Darth Geist Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    "However, we face up the reality that our best, although good, is not good enough for God."

    Unless God Himself came down and told you that, you're guessing, just like any other believer in any faith in the world. And if God holds us up to standards that He deliberately places out of our reach (and I for one don't believe that He does), then let Him play His sadistic game that you seem to believe is love.

    By the way, 201, as for the question of sinning in Heaven, there's no shame in not knowing the answer; as you've often pointed out, no one knows everything about God.
  25. Palpazzar Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 2000
    star 4
    "Unless God Himself came down and told you that, you're guessing"

    If you believe, then God did come down and say it. Sadly, you cannot disprove this to us anymore than we can 'prove' it to you.


    "And if God holds us up to standards that He deliberately places out of our reach (and I for one don't believe that He does), then let Him play His sadistic game that you seem to believe is love"

    Actually, that is the thing about his love. He provides a new standard we can meet if we accept it from him. And this new standard is free. Now if he didn't provide that way out of the old standard, then yes, it would be sadistic.
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