Senate Alleviating Anxiety originating from the Heteropatriarchy

Discussion in 'Community' started by SateleNovelist11, Oct 5, 2017.

  1. SateleNovelist11 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2015
    star 5
    First off, let me state that this thread is not going to become a place to bash men. There are plenty of men on these threads and in real life who are kind to people in general. It's a humanitarian concept. We are not going to shame men for being straight or anything like that.

    I'm making this because I feel that the "Homosexuality" thread and the previous "trans-queer" threads don't really go far enough on this issue. As appreciated as they are, I feel that this issue should be addressed. Secondly, I apologize for my remarks two years ago. I received a lot of privilege from a certain quarter during that year in my life, and that made a bit unfeeling when I wouldn't see a face in front of me. I would show manners to people and agree to disagree in person, but online, I was quite moody and frustrated over randomness and frustrations from other parties. To all I offended, that was all my fault. None of yours. I commend everyone for seeking out justice via forum whereby all are welcome.

    I did not realize how many people we had on this website, and PointGiven, GrandAdmiralGello, Anakinfan, JediMerkurian, and others do a great job of joggling duties on this site. I don't know how they do it, but it's hard work. I appreciated those who showed me that folks in the majority can be kind to the oppressed. I am thankful that I met people like that in the real world and on this site. The magnificent thing about the JCF is that one may meet people and come to an understanding about how the world may grow more compassionate. We are fond of using the Force and other concepts from fiction and even history to do so. We learn and grow in terms of compassion daily.

    However, this thread in particular is for anyone to voice their views, perceptions, and frustrations. The patriarchy/heteropatriarchy is a concept, a bad idea in heads, not a collection of individual persons or collectives. Patriarchy hurts both men and women. It is a concept in society's head. Take mothers who are neglectful and narcissistic. They pass the patriarchy down by ignoring and hurting their daughters. They teach them to put up with things that they should never put up with. So, it's not just bad dads who do that. Patriarchy has no gender. It's not a masculine or feminine thing, truly. It's an insidious concept that encourages people to be codependent and pass baggage down from generation to generation. Some scholars have argued that the hunter-gather society was more egalitarian. Since everyone was concentrating on feeding themselves, supposedly there is no archaeological evidence that these ancient people had any use for things like racism, biphobia, transhobia, misogyny, misandry, or whatever. Supposedly, these prejudices of heteropatriarchy originated during agricultural societies, and Aristotle made things worse by saying that women were practically "deformed men" who served little purpose. (Granted, I had no idea that Aristotle was that repugnant in high school, but as I read more into the translations that Arabic and Greek scholars made of his work, I was appalled.) I'm sure many people would be horrified at the prospect that so many people viewed women as mere tools to beget future generations. The heteropatriarchy can be religious or even nonreligious. It teaches people to look down on women of various sorts. These not only include trans women, but also women who, for varying reasons, cannot or will not have children. I'm not going to get into the medical medical minutiae of it as I did on the threads the other day. But it wasn't just Baptists and pagans who were doing this. It's really amazing and disturbing. Indeed, there are many women who become adults and they have the gall to say that other women who have suffered abuse should just put up with it, be quiet, and wait for the good things to come. I feel sorry for them, since they think that's all we can do. Being a strong woman does not necessarily mean being single. It doesn't entail not having children. Strong women come in all shapes and sizes, and from all walks of life. Experiences, environments, genetics, and choices shape all of us humans on this earth. As such, there is not one way to be female.

    Now, on to the main points:

    I often feel that arguments in favor of homosexuality tend to ignore lesbian issues. Lesbophobia is something that really needs to be addressed. Both lesbian women and bisexual women have suffered abuse, other crimes, unjustified firings, poor housing, etc. Also, it should be noted that many heterosexual women have suffered from lesbophobia simply over their desire to work, protect their kids from bad influences, etc. It has been argued that many of the women who were killed in the Holocaust were really working women who were uninterested in having children or marrying men. These included Jewish and Gypsy women, of course, but the swath of female survivors and martyrs of the Holocaust is endless. A primary reason for the heterosexism of the Holocaust was this: The Nazis wanted to butcher gay men for not becoming husbands and fathers in their absurd propaganda Empire of Hitler Youth. But they also had a severe problem with women who did not wish to conform with this. As mild as other forms of lesbophobia are, they are pervasive in society. Women are spat on (literally and figuratively) simply for not conforming to a heteronormative gaze. We are thankful for those who affirm our souls, the cores of our personalities. (I'm using the term soul in a nonspiritual sense. I mean essence.)

    https://academic.oup.com/jcem/artic...ale-to-Female-Transsexuals-Have-Female-Neuron

    Additionally, while I commend these scientists for discovering that some women are born in the wrong body and some men are born in the wrong body, I am by no means saying that gender is just masculine and feminine. Not at all. I like the idea of a much wider spectrum. I think it is demeaning to people who identify as neutrois, androygnous, etc. to say that there are only two genders. As such, I also feel it is demaning to intersex persons. There's a reason that the LGBT movement should be called the LGBTQ or LGBTI movement instead. We shouldn't leave out people who are queer or intersex. There is absolutely nothing wrong with people who feel that they are fluid in their identity. That fluidity may be lifelong, and there is nothing wrong with that. I believe that is why terms like bigender, trigender, third gender, and Two-Spirit were formed. Some people just really get tired of being forced into an absolute masculine tent and an absolute feminine tent. That could feel constraining in the sense of labels being forced upon them. Labels are involuntarily fixed upon whole swaths of people, and I can see why people would be so offended. It really makes people as offended as those who complained about racism, since these are justifiable complaints.

    Of course, trans people have been around since Ancient Egypt. I was looking at evidence of how the ancient peoples, including the Romans treated trans people, and I was appalled. Generally, it seems that most people are accepting of transgender folk if we keep quiet and don't advocate for equal rights (for ourselves and others). That's how many activists are mistreated. We saw that in the previous century, of course.

    Lastly, I think that this would be good for people who identify as heterosexual, as well. During the twelfth grade, my psychology textbook said that androgynous-minded people are some of the most mentally healthy people of all. What that meant was that being androgynous really had nothing to do with one's orientation. It was more of a mental image concept. Strong women and men who identify as straight but are not afraid to learn from each other, evolve, and grow as humanitarians are badposterior. On a more fundamental level, I would think that most people could benefit from the ideas of neuro-diversity. People with dyslexia are often talented with math, exceptionally so. I admired meeting people like that in high school. We just need to look at people as being different, unique, exceptional, and above all else, individual.

    That's my take.
    Have a fabulous day, everyone. Keep smilin'.
    Last edited by SateleNovelist11, Oct 5, 2017
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  2. Rylo Ken Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 19, 2015
    star 5
  3. Diggy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 27, 2013
    star 7
    I echo my fellow Caucasian Hetero Patriarch in hoping today brings nothing but joy.
  4. Lord Vivec Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2006
    star 8
    I don't think this is true. While it's true that lesbians will suffer from homophobia and from misogyny, I don't think that they're either a) the most vulnerable of the lgbt groups or 2) being ignored by 'arguments in favor of homosexuality.' For starters, the most vulnerable by far are transwomen, but the second would be gay men. Largely anything that threatens the masculinity and sexuality of cishet men tend to be in more danger of having violent attacks perpetrated against them, suffer housing and job discrimination, abuse, etc. I don't think lesbians in general suffer from anything that *stands out* compared to the rest of the LGBT community. Furthermore, you'll find lesbianism is a bit more accepted in society and media (note the number of lesbian relationships in media vs the number of gay male relationships). Secondly, I don't believe Lesbianism is behind left within the lgbt behind at all. In fact, I've often heard from gay men I know that they're the ones feeling left behind, as social justice movements seem to be ready to drop them at a moment's notice. I mean you're getting stuff like this happening within social justice circles all the time. Do you have any particular examples of this?

    So yeah, in conclusion I wouldn't say that lesbians are getting left behind in the lgbt movement.
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  5. DANNASUK Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 6
    In many countries, gay acts between women is/was legal way before their gay male counterparts. There are countries in the world, where sex between two men is illegal, whereas it is legal for two women to engage in the delightful sins of flesh.
  6. Alpha-Red Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 25, 2004
    star 5
    I don't even see how gays, lesbians or transgenders pose any threat whatsoever to straight people. Bigotry exists because there's people who are just miserable low-lifes who can't find any meaning in their own existence and just want to find somebody to hate.
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  7. Rylo Ken Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 19, 2015
    star 5
    I honestly don't believe that's why bigotry exists. Irrational fear of the other founded on evolutionary hardwiring to have a rational fear of the other. That's why it exists.

    re Vivec's point. The two-dad parenting families I know face a harder time than the two mom families because of some pervasive, irrational cultural fear of gay men as sexual predators on the prowl for children. We've seen that rear its ugly head in the whole bathroom "debate." I don't think lesbian parents face that kind of really debilitating, humiliating stereotyping in my community.
    Last edited by Rylo Ken, Oct 5, 2017
  8. gezvader28 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2003
    star 5
    while I agree with you that various peoples are discriminated against in various ways I'm not sure I understand how this is about hetero-patriarchy .
  9. poor yorick Ex-Mod

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2002
    star 6
    Hey Satele . . . I'm all for alleviating anxiety originating from the heteropatriarchy. I've definitely been feeling some of that today. In case you haven't heard, Sessions reversed the Obama-era DOJ guidance banning workplace discrimination against trans people yesterday. I'm on disability and not in the workplace myself, but I'd like to work again before I'm dead. I'm also worried that the GOP will next come after trans people on Medicare, and refuse us HRT and surgery. (The House just voted to cut about $500 billion from the Medicare budget too, the beautiful souls that they are.)

    That said, I'm a little unclear about the main point of this thread. Is it sort of a support group thing, as the title implies, or is it more about debating whether discrimination based on gender and sexual orientation is bad? Because I think you'll find that the vast majority of people here believe that it is.
  10. Lord Vivec Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2006
    star 8
    The LGBT community doesn't threaten cishets at all (outside of some....extremely rare and weird cases). However, specifically regarding transwomen and gay men, some cishet men feel their sexuality threatened, especially if one finds an MTF transwoman attractive, or if one perceives they're being hit on by a gay man, etc. It's a lot to do with sexual insecurity and fear of being thought of as not straight by society, and that can even lead to violence.
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  11. DANNASUK Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 6

    This.
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  12. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 10
    Is this suggesting hetero men are worse than homosexual men? I'm unsure, because I didn't get the view from Mrs Fitzgerald's corner. I am however sure that "cis-" isn't a real word or prefix.
  13. poor yorick Ex-Mod

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    Jun 25, 2002
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    I think it's more of a systemic prejudice thing than a ranking of people on a scale of goodness.
  14. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 10
    It's more that I'm just suspicious of Satele and her ability to shoehorn her personal paradigm to every debate, @poor yorick.

    Talking about black people being oppressed? "That's terrible, but I'm also oppressed!"
    Talking about extreme poverty? "Poverty is sad, but do you know what else is sad? What happened to me!"
    Han Solo passing? "I once knew someone who passed, so sad, think how it affected me".

    Like, I'm unsure from the wall of text how heteronormative values are inherent less awful than heteropatriarchy and it seems a homopatriarchy is considered more tolerable - basically, a hot mess of an important point.
  15. poor yorick Ex-Mod

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    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2002
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    Well, she did apologize for past conduct, and I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt. As for the heteropatriarchy/homopatriarchy point, I'm going to let Satele answer that.
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  16. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 10


    I've only ever been nice to you. :( :p
  17. poor yorick Ex-Mod

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    Jun 25, 2002
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    You're a terrible man. :p
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  18. Lord Vivec Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2006
    star 8
    Looking forward to responses myself.
  19. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 10

    Terrible man, or terrible heteropatriarch?

    Probably on ignore, tbh.
  20. poor yorick Ex-Mod

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2002
    star 6
    You can't be a heteropatriarch. I like you. : )
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  21. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 10
    I'm as repressed as a Hooters girl in Texas right now.
  22. SateleNovelist11 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2015
    star 5

    I am aware. But I'm talking about crimes against individuals. https://www.huffingtonpost.com/nicole-kristal/bisexuals-lack-supportand_3_b_9585202.html

    https://everydayfeminism.com/2016/07/reminders-for-bisexual-women/

    https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/li...31536793/?ref=http://www.theglobeandmail.com&

    Bisexual women are particularly targeted for violence in domestic disputes.

    Also, this scholarly article shows that children who identify as lesbian or bisexual female are more at risk from abusive caretakers than heterosexual women. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3912575/

    There are two articles available that point toward bisexual women being the most abused group in the States. This is the fault of oppressors, of course, and it is a problem that needs to be remedied in society. I would say that this is applicable to both trans and cis women, as I see absolutely no point to differentiate between cisgender or transgender women. The genital issue is irrelevant. Having a female brain, apparently, trumps everything. But even if one does not have that, I think that Serano is correct that society needs to get over looking down at femininity of any sort. The fear and disdain for this concept in any person of any sort...is an unwarranted and outdated construct.

    The fact that society and traditions encourage violence against anyone is stupid. We all know that. But the anti-feminine sentiment is pervasive. That requires changes in hearts and minds. https://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/328504.Julia_Serano


    My primary concern is for transgender children who are bullied and harmed by parents and non-family members. I also have long noticed a trend of other kids who identify as gay, bisexual, lesbian, whatever, as being mistreated by both parents and non-family members. To me, it's disgusting, and children deserve better. It is appalling and unacceptable for kids of any age (up to 18) to be harmed, as most people know. For the purposes of this argument, I am using "kids" and "children" as terms for people under the age of 19. I believe that transphobia as child abuse toward certain children. I also see biphobia and homophobia as child abuse toward other children. I think that's a given. We should treat the youth as human beings. Trying to control them, degrading them, etc. is harmful. Additionally, this goes for anyone else. It's anti-humanist or anti-humanitarian to judge anyone on the basis of skin color or whatever their gender identity may be. All non-heterosexual people want is acceptance from heterosexual people. We are all one. It's like we're all women, men, whatever. We're all one. A species unified is the ideal.

    Poor Yorick, [smirks], welcome. Good to see you. If I used to enjoy cross-dressing and pretending to be a man. It was somewhat amusing in certain settings.

    http://www.nationalgeographic.com/magazine/2017/01/how-science-helps-us-understand-gender-identity/

    The thread is about disgust for violence targeted against specific women. It examines lesbophobic, biphobic, and transphobic crimes in my estimation. As you can see, there is no legal precedent for the issue. https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/miss...rdering-transgender-victim-because-her-gender
    Last edited by SateleNovelist11, Oct 6, 2017
  23. SateleNovelist11 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2015
    star 5
    I see. Thank you for your contribution.

    Well, regarding the main topic, these stats do not lie. http://www.thetaskforce.org/bisexua...intimate-partner-violence-new-cdc-data-shows/

    https://www.thedailybeast.com/bisexual-women-are-at-higher-risk-for-depression-and-suicide

    Anyone who takes their own life and/or is harmed is not at fault. It's the oppressor, the tormentor, who is at fault. That's why they should be tried for hate crimes, in my estimation.

    Also, the sheer volume of hate crimes against trans people is disturbingly common, according to research. https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc...rans-people-still-disturbingly-common-n685971 There is no excuse for crimes against transgender people. Nor is there any excuse for crimes against anyone else. What I argue is that all people should be treated equally under the law. The law is not always enforced to protect ethnic minorities and other peoples. Law is often a commodity to be bought and sold by the highest bidder, and that is why the criminal justice system needs more reform. We should not have thoughtcrimes, of course. That would be Orwellian. But it should be illegal to harm a person, fire a person, or not house a person on the basis of their orientation, gender identity, ethnic background, their abilities, etc. I would go as far as to argue that neurodiversity should be protected, as well, since they are shunned in the education system and the workforce.

    This law was enacted by Congress and our former president to protect anyone from harm on the bases of these things. I would argue that this should be in the Constitution until we no longer need it. It's like the argument for affirmative action. We need affirmative action until it is no longer necessary. That's how we should look at law as a living document to protect citizenry. https://www.justice.gov/crt/matthew-shepard-and-james-byrd-jr-hate-crimes-prevention-act-2009-0

    Trump has opened the floodgates to allow bullying of trans students in schools. This is a dangerous situation. It puts youth at risk.

    Additionally, while same-sex marriage has helped to lower the suicide rate in this country, we need laws guaranteeing that people cannot be fired on the basis of orientation.
  24. Rylo Ken Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 19, 2015
    star 5
  25. Lord Vivec Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2006
    star 8
    [I think you'll find most people here, including myself, are not in favor of discriminating against transpeople. However unless there is like a specific case of someone goading someone else to suicide, i am definitely not in favor of charging someone else with a crime if someone commits suicide. I'm still not entirely sure how lesbians are being left behind by the LGBT movement. tho.
    Last edited by Lord Vivec, Oct 6, 2017
  26. DANNASUK Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 6
    In the words of Jabba, Lord of Vivec has requested a response to his question.

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