ALMOST - Qui/Obi - one memorable moment/DON FLAMEPROOF SUIT BEFORE ENTERING :D

Discussion in 'Fan Fiction Stories--Classic JC Board (Reply-Only)' started by CYNICAL21, Oct 7, 2002.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Arldetta Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 2002
    star 4
    Stupendious as per usual, CYN. Emotionally charged, which is something I have always found wonderous about your writing. How you can make a simple word feel so much more than it was ever meant to do? I must know.

    But I also find that there is a bit of a contradiction in your Obi's. In you epic, AUF, it is hinted to, and then confirmed in your ALF, that Obi sacrificed himself to save Qui. Would that not be defying the living Force when it was supposed to be Qui-Gon's time to go? And because of his undying love, I can't seem to believe that he would let Qui-Gon die, unless he knew there was absolutely nothing else he could do. But that was the impression I have always had of Obi. That he would give until his last breath to save someone from suffering.

    But yes, Qui-Gon has always been the selfish type eventhough he prided himself on his philanthropy to others. His only true fault is that he was always blind to the needs of his Padawans. Which is obvious in his handling of both Xanatos and Obi. I have often believed he had failed them more grieviously than they had ever failed him. Ignoring their emotional needs and placing them in positions to defy him, to feel like he was in charge of everything. I have called him Master of Denial before, and it still fits here.

    Anyway, sorry to ramble. Wasn't really planning on drifting, just wanted to let you know how great your writing is. ;) Thanks for sharing your 'scribblings' with us. Because we need masterpieces out there to show the world how wonderful our Obi-Wan really is. Thanks. :D
  2. Darth_Tim Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 26, 2002
    star 4
    You know, TMJ - you're actually right - for the most part. And I'm not even entirely sure I dislike the way Obi was trained; after all, one can hardly argue with results - and he certainly turned out to be a superlative Jedi - the one who would, despite all odds, set in motion the actions that would defeat the Darkside. And I've recently come to the conclusion that the Jedi - noble as their cause may be - were not an order dedicated to compassion within their own ranks. I think they set out to make things as difficult as possible for their padawans, to learn if they could cut it as Jedi - and, if they couldn't, I think the Order hardened its collective heart - and cut the kids loose. And if that seems harsh, for an organization that took these kids from their families as infants, that's because it IS harsh. Though dedicated to justice and peace, this is basically a single-minded Order - and single-mindedness frequently equals bloody-mindedness, I find. And I hope, in my little series of vignettes, to demonstrate this more completely as time goes on.

    But, in Obi's case, what I object to - and can't get beyond - was the incredible cruelty and betrayal of what Master Lunkhead did to his apprentice in the Council chamber. If I see it a thousand times, no one is ever going to convince me that the look on Ewan's face conveys anything except an awareness of the keenness of the blade sliding into his back. Then, to add insult to injury, we have the conversation of the landing platform, culminating in, "Now get on board." Even if the Master had behaved like a total lout all during their association - which he might have - I don't think anything could have prepared the apprentice for those exquisitely painful moments.

    At which point, invariably, I am screaming and calling the big lout every name in the book, most of which are unprintable on these pages. >>

    Which is my problem with the Anti-Qui crowd...they seem to be enamored with their hero, and when they look at Qui, it seems to be with whatever the exact opposite of rose-tinted glasses would be equivalent to.

    Furthermore, many fanfic authors and one pro feel the need to explain Qui-Gon's behavior. I understand this. Yet it seems that said explanation invariably has something to do with apprentices gone bad or Qui having a train of emotional baggage which would fill several warehouses. I guess something like a personality trait would be far too mundane.

    Maybe it has to do with being something of an Ani-fan, that it irks me to see the ONE PERSON in the ENTIRE JEDI ORDER who defended him get dragged through the mud, repeatedly.

    Had anyone else defended Anakin, I would tend to agree with Cyn. But for whatever reason, Qui was convinced about the boy and found himself in the unenviable position of being his only advocate. But I don't understand the logic of interpreting every single phrase of Qui-Gon as a deliberate slight against Obi. Guess it's one of those things that "depends greatly on your point of view."

    Now, 20/20 hindsight tells us that fears of danger in Anakin were well founded, to say the least. But to me, ANYTHING of great power and potential carries an inherent danger- you can make a nuclear reactor or a nuclear bomb with the same technology. So it's convenient to, if you don't care much for Qui-Gon in the first place, blame him for that, too.

    And here is something I was thinking this morning...if Obi-Wan was so convinced of Anakin's danger, WHY DIDN'T HE OBJECT TO TRAINING HIM?? Now, I heard Qui-Gon's dying words just as well as the rest of you, but if Obi-Wan is the Living Embodiment of the Ideal Jedi Devoted to the Order, would not his larger duty to the Jedi as a whole - as opposed to his Master - supercede personal attachment? I mean, isn't Anakin's putting personal feelings/real or imagined obligations, whether for Padme or his mother ahead of his obligation to the Jedi, what many Ani-detractors say was his greatest flaw?

    Just a thought, and let the retaliation commence...

    -Tim

  3. CYNICAL21 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 2001
    star 4
    Arldetta - right you are. There IS some contradiction here - but, if you note, in THIS little offering, I never mention Obi-Wan's age. In this story, he is very, very young - mid-teens at most - and already demonstrating that complete selflessness, by sacrificing his body to protect those children. And while he undoubtedly would fight to save his Master's life, beyond all reasoning, you must recall that - in this story - he's been badly burned. Imagine the pain - and imagine how he would react to such pain for his Master.

    In such an instance, I believe he WOULD be able to let go - to spare Qui-Gon the incredible pain. And that is what he is asking in this story - for a release from the pain.

    And remember also that it is Qui-Gon who is so insistant on heeding the message of the Living Force - even when it leads him to sacrifice his present padawan for the sake of a new one. Obi-WAn, I believe, is more driven by compassion and loyalty.

    Appreciate the comments, I do - :D - not to mention the kind reviews. You guys are the best!!

    CYN
  4. Arldetta Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 2002
    star 4
    Cyn - I concede. It's true, you did not mention his age and that too can play out a completely different scenario. Pain is also a very big factor. If he is that young, I think I would do anything to find release from it too. And I also confer with your view on Qui-Gon and his touch of the living Force of Obi's. Anyway, thanks again!! And look forward to more of your works to grace the populace. ;) :D
  5. CYNICAL21 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 2001
    star 4
    Oh, my, Tim - I am onto you. That whole rant was a red flag, wasn't it? You're just dying to start a fight!!! OK - suits me. :D

    Which is my problem with the Anti-Qui crowd...they seem to be enamored with their hero, and when they look at Qui, it seems to be with whatever the exact opposite of rose-tinted glasses would be equivalent to.

    Sorry, Bud - but aren't you doing exactly what you accuse the pro-Obis of doing? Defending QG because he is Ani's only defender. If you look closely at most of my work (and leave AUF out of it, for that is a different scenario entirely - the entire story being based on QG behaving like Master Obtuse) you'll see that my biggest objection to QG, aside from a certain brusque attitude which only seems to come out in his dealings with his padawan, is the way he behaves in those two scenes - the ones already mentioned. Now come on, Tim. Watch the play of emotions on both faces in those scenes; can you honestly say that you don't see the pain in the young face - and maybe even more telling - the split second of "Omigod, what have I done to this kid who has been my life for twelve years?" that flits across QG's face just before he hardens his heart and concentrates on 'living in the moment and billy-be-damned to anything that gets in his way'?

    And, just incidentally, if you do NOT like to explain QG's personality and/or actions by the circumstances of his past, what personality trait would you care to ascribe his behavior to? Is it better for him to be conflicted because of the consequences of past actions - or just to be driven by his own arrogance - or whatever? Or do you not find him arrogant - or callous - or what?

    Re your point about Obi-WAn refusing to train Anakin - I believe it is said - probably in the TPM novel - that he comes to believe that his Master was correct; that Anakin is too powerful not to train, so he accepts the duty his Master laid on him. But that does NOT excuse the WAY QG chose to go about performing his mission. One does not abandon a prior loyalty in favor of a new one, without first fulfilling the original obligations. And that applies whether one is a Jedi knight - or not. We are constantly reminded about QG's compassion for pathetic lifeforms; has he none for a youth to whom he has sworn his protection and his loyalty?

    Sorry, Bud - but I think you're wrong on this one - and I am more than willing to admit that part of my standpoint springs from my own lack of enthusiasm for Anakin. As I believe I've said before, I find Vader fascinating - but Anakin remains, for me, a whiny, self-absorbed little brat - and the look on his face when the Council rejects his training should have been enough to make QG take another look at his Chosen One!

    However - I am willing to listen, as always. TAke a long drag on that peace-pipe, and then wade right in. :D

    CYN
  6. Padawan_Travina Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 5, 2002
    star 4
    Which is my problem with the Anti-Qui crowd...they seem to be enamored with their hero, and when they look at Qui, it seems to be with whatever the exact opposite of rose-tinted glasses would be equivalent to.

    Furthermore, many fanfic authors and one pro feel the need to explain Qui-Gon's behavior. I understand this. Yet it seems that said explanation invariably has something to do with apprentices gone bad or Qui having a train of emotional baggage which would fill several warehouses. I guess something like a personality trait would be far too mundane.

    Maybe it has to do with being something of an Ani-fan, that it irks me to see the ONE PERSON in the ENTIRE JEDI ORDER who defended him get dragged through the mud, repeatedly.


    This is true..he defended Anakin..but look at who is he threw away in the process..Now don't get me wrong here..Yes Ani is the chosen one..and yes I can see someone trying to push this to the council, but you don't throw away the one person who has stood by you no matter what and taken a lot of slack and such from someone whi is suppose to care about you...



    Had anyone else defended Anakin, I would tend to agree with Cyn. But for whatever reason, Qui was convinced about the boy and found himself in the unenviable position of being his only advocate. But I don't understand the logic of interpreting every single phrase of Qui-Gon as a deliberate slight against Obi. Guess it's one of those things that "depends greatly on your point of view."


    Well 9 times out of 10 when ever it was something to do with Ani, the words that did come out of his mouth was a way to slight Obi or put him in his place in a harsh way.



    Now, 20/20 hindsight tells us that fears of danger in Anakin were well founded, to say the least. But to me, ANYTHING of great power and potential carries an inherent danger- you can make a nuclear reactor or a nuclear bomb with the same technology. So it's convenient to, if you don't care much for Qui-Gon in the first place, blame him for that, too.

    And here is something I was thinking this morning...if Obi-Wan was so convinced of Anakin's danger, WHY DIDN'T HE OBJECT TO TRAINING HIM?? Now, I heard Qui-Gon's dying words just as well as the rest of you, but if Obi-Wan is the Living Embodiment of the Ideal Jedi Devoted to the Order, would not his larger duty to the Jedi as a whole - as opposed to his Master - supercede personal attachment? I mean, isn't Anakin's putting personal feelings/real or imagined obligations, whether for Padme or his mother ahead of his obligation to the Jedi, what many Ani-detractors say was his greatest flaw?

    Just a thought, and let the retaliation commence...


    You have a point here..That much power could be a problem for danger..but I always thought that was the greatest test of a Jedi..was not to give into the temptaion of that power...

    And as for Anakin's down fall..I still say it was cause of his feelings that he couldn't control, but alot of it had to deal with him being a slave and him not being able to get over that....

    Why didn't Obi-Wan object to training Anakin..that I have no answer for...I agree he should have said no...but then if Obi-Wan hadn't trained him..some one else would have..

    And maybe Obi-Wan in that brief moment let his feelins for Qui-Gon get the best of him...who knows

    OK going to find that flame-resitante suit out


    PT
  7. Ginger_Jedi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 2001
    star 6
    Ah Cyn utterly depressing as always ;) Poor Qui - he was so convinced at the end that Obi was just sleeping.

    *runs off in search of a tissue*

    Great as always Cyn :)
  8. Master_Comedy_Kitty Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jul 5, 2002
    star 4
    HE'S SLEEPING! HE CAN'T BE DEAD! *sobs* :_| Marvelous. Much better than the crap I put up here. True angst and I love it. I bow to you Cyn. Hope to see more from you soon. *MCK is still trying to finish 'War and Peace' er, i mean 'An Untimely Frosting.' :p *
  9. CYNICAL21 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 2001
    star 4
    MCK - I've read some of your work - and 'crap' it is not.

    Glad you liked it - and hope AUF doesn't wear you out reading it, like it wore me out writing it. :D

    CYN
  10. The Musical Jedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 13, 1999
    star 5
    Hmmm.... I've been thinking about this all afternoon, sadly.

    I guess that I can't really agree with the statement that QGJ is selfish. I am a firm believer that people are a sum of their life, that is, what has happened to them and their reactions to it, so I can't see Qui-Gon any differently. To me, QGJ's actions are justified by that... something (a concept rapidly growing into an obession for me ;)) in his past made him overly indulgent towards Xanatos. At least, that is the reason implied in Cyn's favorite series, the JA. Then, when Xanatos turned, I see his reaction to Obi-Wan as an attempt to countermand the mistake he made the first time around. Perhaps he is hard and over-bearing and distant because he doesn't want to lose that padawan! Sometimes it seems to me that Qui-Gon is not allowed to be human. He is a Jedi Master, the Master of the beloved Obi-Wan, so he must be flawless. How does that work?

    However, I'm not justifying his actions in TPM when he leaves Obi-Wan by the wayside and takes up Anakin's banner. But let's stop and think about this. He is known for adopting pathetic lifeforms, correct? He senses this great power in this child, and he honestly believes that this is the Chosen One. As Tim pointed out, he is the only one to take up Anakin's cause. What would have happened if Qui-Gon hadn't championed him? You have some kind who is stronger in the Force than anyone in living memory -- and that, my friends, is a very long time with Yoda around -- who is running amuck in the galaxy. Hurting someone else is never a good thing, but you can almost see the justification running through Qui-Gon's mind. Perhaps he thought there was no other way. Besides, in the end, it didn't devestate Obi-Wan. I firmly believe that QGJ loved his padawan as his own son and knew that Obi-Wan could take that blow. Perhaps it was more important that OBK take that blow that Anakin be abandoned by the wayside.
  11. Master_Comedy_Kitty Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jul 5, 2002
    star 4
    :eek: You've read my stuff?! I feel honored you lurker... :p
  12. CalaisKenobi Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 15, 2002
    star 4
    CYN Somehow in this story, I feel worse for Obi-Wan than I did in AUF. Here it almost seems like Qui-Gon is putting so much pressure on him, even trying to force him to thwart death! [face_shocked] Granted, at least here he hasn't tossed him aside like week-old garbage, but isn't that intense sense of pressure almost worse in a way?

    MCK "An Untimely Frosting" Why do I have images of Obi-Wan jumping out of a birthday cake now? 8-}
  13. TheSwedishJedi Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 15, 2001
    star 4
    I'd like to start out by saying: I wonder what every one would think about Ani (and in turn on Obi and Qui) if we didn't know that he turns and becomes Vader. And forget AotC for a moment since many people's opinions about the kid were formed from TPM. Would people like him a little more is they didn't know that he was going to be the one that destroys the entire Jedi Order and ends up wearing black? I'd almost think people would have more sympathy for the kid when they see him coming out of being a slave most of his life and being told that he could become part of the most revered order in the universe. You're going from being treated as a peice of property to having royalty bowing to you. That would do a head job on anyone.

    Now I'm not saying how Ani acted was the best way and all but you have to give the kid some time to adjust. I really think he was sweet in TPM, a little annoying, but he was trying his best to help everyone.

    Now for Qui-Gon (and remember you don't know about ANH or such), he's doing what he thinks best. We know this, he even stated it a couple times. He's found a kid that is very strong in the Force and knows that he needs to be trained. Yes, he has responiblity to Obi-Wan, but if what he said was true about Obi being ready to be Knighted - which I think it was, 25 years old seems rather old for a Padawan for much longer - then Obi was more then ready for being on his own. He should have had some idea that he was approching his Knighting, which he did or he wouldn't have agreed with Qui-Gon in the Council. Though Qui-Gon handled it rather... undiplomaticly, it happened and Obi being a Jedi, should be able to deal with it. Being a Jedi is a hard life, if it wasn't then anyone could be a Jedi. (Now that's a scary thought [face_mischief] ) Qui-Gon is Ani's only defender, something that I have a problem with the Council about - if Ani was so strong they could have had at least kept him the Temple or something - and so does his best to get the kid in. He's just more reckless, outspoken and doesn't think about the conquenenes as he should. He deals with the Living Force and focuses on the 'Moment'. At that moment, it looked like Ani was going to be sent away. He knew Obi-Wan was ready and that Anakin needed something solid in his life so he thought he'd be the best choice. He just needs to remember that everyone else has a different opinion of him too.

    As for Obi-Wan, he was trying his best to follow both the Code and his Master and the Force. All of which didn't always see eye to eye. Obi-Wan respects his Master, and perhaps even loves him like a father - despite love being forbiden, phooey - and stands with him against the Council. But he certainly isn't afraid of him, he's welling to agrue with him if he must. He senses something about Ani and tells Qui-Gon. His Master is simply being stubborn and doesn't want to deal with an agruing Padawan after dealing with the Council and being given a new, more or less, mission. He's just doing what he's been trained to do. They all are - Ani, Qui and Obi. They just happen to have different methods, behaviors and ideas from each other, and when in tense suitations as they were in, those opinions tend to sufurce in strong willed people.

    Well, that's enough blabing from me. :D

    ~Swede :p
  14. Darth_Tim Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 26, 2002
    star 4
    Oh, my, Tim - I am onto you. That whole rant was a red flag, wasn't it? You're just dying to start a fight!!! OK - suits me.

    Which is my problem with the Anti-Qui crowd...they seem to be enamored with their hero, and when they look at Qui, it seems to be with whatever the exact opposite of rose-tinted glasses would be equivalent to.

    Sorry, Bud - but aren't you doing exactly what you accuse the pro-Obis of doing? Defending QG because he is Ani's only defender.>>

    Well, Palpatine certainly saw the potential in him (albeit from an entirely different angle, to say the least), and I'm not going to defend *him.* There was Padme, but I didn't like her as much in AOTC...


    If you look closely at most of my work (and leave AUF out of it, for that is a different scenario entirely - the entire story being based on QG behaving like Master Obtuse) you'll see that my biggest objection to QG, aside from a certain brusque attitude which only seems to come out in his dealings with his padawan, is the way he behaves in those two scenes - the ones already mentioned. Now come on, Tim. Watch the play of emotions on both faces in those scenes; can you honestly say that you don't see the pain in the young face - and maybe even more telling - the split second of "Omigod, what have I done to this kid who has been my life for twelve years?" that flits across QG's face just before he hardens his heart and concentrates on 'living in the moment and billy-be-damned to anything that gets in his way'?

    And, just incidentally, if you do NOT like to explain QG's personality and/or actions by the circumstances of his past, what personality trait would you care to ascribe his behavior to? Is it better for him to be conflicted because of the consequences of past actions - or just to be driven by his own arrogance - or whatever? Or do you not find him arrogant - or callous - or what? >>

    I find him *human* I guess. Flawed, yes, but a good person can have flaws. For better or worse. And that *gasp* he even might have a few positive qualities here and there...namely, he sticks up with what he believes in and isn't afraid to disagree with the Council if he thinks he has a good reason for doing so.

    Or maybe it comes from being apprenticed to Dooku...the guy wasn't even at his own apprentice's funeral for Pete's sake! (well, okay, so maybe GL hadn't thought of Dooku yet, but I'm talking about "in-universe" reasons here)

    As for your fanfics and RRK's and others...I don't necessarily agree with you on the interpretation of Qui-Gon, (though I've never tried to write him myself, so go figure) but that's not why I read your stories...it's because you are awesome writers and if you portray characters in a way I don't like, at least you make them convincing. To me, the only canon is that of the films, not JA or any other EU from that period dealing with Qui-Gon. Now, writers such as yourself who are more interested in the Obi/Qui relationship probably *do* read more into things than I do, however.

    <<Re your point about Obi-WAn refusing to train Anakin - I believe it is said - probably in the TPM novel - that he comes to believe that his Master was correct; that Anakin is too powerful not to train, so he accepts the duty his Master laid on him. But that does NOT excuse the WAY QG chose to go about performing his mission. One does not abandon a prior loyalty in favor of a new one, without first fulfilling the original obligations. And that applies whether one is a Jedi knight - or not. We are constantly reminded about QG's compassion for pathetic lifeforms; has he none for a youth to whom he has sworn his protection and his loyalty?

    Sorry, Bud - but I think you're wrong on this one - and I am more than willing to admit that part of my standpoint springs from my own lack of enthusiasm for Anakin. As I believe I've said before, I find Vader fascinating - but Anakin remains, for me, a whiny, self-absorbed little brat - and the look on his face when the Council rejects his training should have been enough to make QG take another lo
  15. CYNICAL21 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 2001
    star 4
    Can anyone say, "Opening a can of worms?" :D

    Tim, TMJ, & Swede- I concede (gasp!) that you all have valid points, as far as they go. And, as I think I've mentioned before, my problem is NOT with Qui-Gon's actions, so much as his methods. How do you, for example, reconcile "You still have much to learn, my young apprentice," with - five minutes later - "There is little more he can learn from me"? And is there a phrase more meaningful than 'damning with faint praise' in the not-very-inspiring, "But he IS capable."

    Thanks a lot, Old Massa.

    Don't know that I agree about 25 being old for a padawan; if being Jedi is akin, in its own way, for example, to being a doctor (and maybe even more knowledge-intensive in its requirements) I doubt that 25 is even old enough, in most circumstances.

    Must also point out that I don't think I've ever tried to paint him as a worthless, hateful old reprobate; I also see him as a basically decent person - one who has some lovely qualities - but you,Tim, used the word, flawed - and that, I think, says it all. If I might remind you, even in AUF - when his treatment of OW is completely unforgivable - he is still not without some sympathetic qualities. As I've said, he's an interesting character, but I find that his traits are often double-bladed. What you see as strength, I may see as arrogance; what you see as determination, I see as willfulness. See? Every coin has two sides - but, let me repeat it, I do NOT see him as evil or without saving graces; I don't think he deliberately set out to hurt OW - I just don't think he strived hard enough to avoid it, when he set off to accomplish his goals, come hell or high water.

    And even if I concede all your points - which I do NOT - (I personally found Anakin to be an annoying precocious brat from practically word one) - there is no way to excuse the brusque manner in which the Master dismisses his padawan's concerns. All Obi-WAn tried to do was make his Master understand that there was a danger involved in training the boy (and you can hardly argue that he was wrong, now can you?) and what did he get for his efforts. "Now get on board."

    Tell me, Qui-Gon defenders - and if you can make me understand this one thing, I will concede defeat. Why, at that moment, when the young man that he was sworn to mentor and protect was looking up at him, concern and caring writ plain in his eyes - the very same young man who had just taken that mega-knife-in-the-back blow that came close to sending him to his knees, as he managed, somehow, to swallow his sense of betrayal and - once again, come hell or high water - back up his Master - after all that, why could Qui-Gon NOT look down and say, simply, "I know I hurt you, Obi-WAn - and I would not have done that for the world. You are the son of my heart - but if this boy is sent away - and the Jedi do not monitor him - great tragedy awaits us. Forgive me for what I've had to do - and understand that you will always be first in my heart. I am proud of you - my young knight."

    Short, simple - slightly emotional, I suppose, for a Jedi knight - but enough to mend the wounds of his apprentice's wounded heart - and repay him for his loyalty and his dedication. What was so hard?

    But I suppose, "Now get on board" was more natural to him - and required no relaxing of his own safeguards around his heart.

    I believe - and always have - that QG is a complex, conflicted character - and somewhat twisted by the events of his past. However, I remind you that almost every child abuser was himself, an abused child (and TMJ there might be your hook for a take on Dooku). At the same time, being a victim does not excuse perpetuating such cruelty on someone who gifts you with his trust and devotion.

    Was Obi-WAn afraid of QG? I don't think afraid is the right word. Wary, perhaps - if he remembered the circumstances of their initial joining - but I think he probably assumed that 12 years together was enough for him to be able to trust his Master to put his Padawan's needs ahead of
  16. Ewanfan51 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 2
    Wow I read this sad tale and got caught by the Obi/Qui debate. Very well argued on both sides.
    Since I am an Obi Wan fan you know which side of this little debate I fall on. I like Qui Gon's character. I do not like how he treated his apprentice.

    Great story, and he is too just sleeping, silly people.

    Thanks CYN
  17. TheSwedishJedi Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 15, 2001
    star 4
    True, true. I agree that Qui-Gon was flawed, but all humans are. His are just a bit more visable. And while I don't like how he treated Obi-Wan, I like him enough to forgive him. Hey, I'll do if for Obi too when Anakin turns - you can't blame everything on the kid, I think how Obi-Wan dealt with him in AotC effected how he reacts to Obi - and Palpatine for that matter - if that makes any sense.

    And for the 25 age thing, yes doctors study a lot but they usually start around age 20. If you go by the JA's, Padawan's start training at the very least age 13. For Obi, that's 12 years. And yes there's a lot to learn about being a Jedi but 12 years is a long time. Besides Luke had about 3 months or so and Yoda said he was ready to be a Jedi. I know it was a crash course but I think a lot of learning it the basic stuff, history and math and such, so the Temple was a school too. So I think 25 is about the average age if not less then that for becoming a Knight.

    Maybe it all comes down to a difference of opinion in what the relationship should be between a Master and apprentice. There are those who see it as strictly a professional/educational thing - void of affection or parent/child exchanges. I can't quite see that. I think if you take children at the very vulnerable age when they're just approaching puberty, and treat them like little soldiers - drilling them with discipline and duty and rote - what you get is - little soldiers, without depth or emotional stability or a sense of belonging. That way, I would think, lies disaster.

    I agree with you Cyn, they weren't, or at least shouldn't be, trained as solders. And if they were supposed to be then Obi-Wan failed at the end when he started crying. He cared about Qui-Gon and if it was strictly a professional realationship, sure he'd feel bad that the man died but he wouldn't be that upset. Plus if Obi-Wan had been trained as a solder, I don't think he would have been able to cry. It's just not what a solder would do.

    I have to say that I like this rants, not just for the fact that I can get other people's opinions on SW but it also lets me see how someone else views a character and that helps me, at least I hope, portray said person better. Gives me another side of them you know.

    ~Swede :p
  18. Arwen-Jade_Kenobi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 9, 2002
    star 5
    Beautiful fic...even with Obi's death :_|

    Sheer brilliance
  19. Jovieve Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    I'm not even getting into this.

    But I didn't get that Qui-Gon was arrogant about not wanting his Padawan to die in a stupid accident, what parent/lover/friend would want this? It's one thing to die in defense of life/liberty/blah blah, but for someone so special and precious to die because they zigged when they should have zagged or because they slipped in the bathtub? That's horrendous, it's blasphemy and a heinous tragedy. It would be laughable if the end result didn't rip out your soul. And believe me as I speak from experience that it is VERY hard not to beg someone you love to stay, when it's better that they leave. VERY VERY hard.

    But, that is exactly what Cyn intended, to showcase a sympathetic Qui-Gon's arrogance, so what she says goes.

    Poor Obi-Wan's gone...or maybe like the ending of that cheesy movie 'Blue Lagoon', he's just sleeping. (looks around, is the reference too obscure?)
  20. CYNICAL21 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 2001
    star 4
    Just to clarify - although I DO ordinarily feel that Qui-Gon is arrogant - though not consciously (is there even such a thing as unconscious arrogance), in this story his arrogance is more in the manner of "Not MY padawan." AS if saying to God (or the Force) "You can't do this to ME."

    Too often, in a common thread throughout a lot of SW fics, it's all about Qui-Gon and HIS connection to the Living Force - and never mind everyone else's. This is a mindset that he apparently can NOT resist.

    However, in this case, despite the self-absorption, the bottom line is that the grief - the failure to accept - the deep, throbbing ache of the soul - is NOT about Qui-Gon or his arrogance. For once, reality has burrowed down beneath the man's self-awareness and hit him where he really lives. For once, his grief - rejected as it is, for the moment - will NOT be denied - or shuttled off onto someone else. For once, he WILL find no alternative but to deal with the very real, unavoidable pain.

    For here, ultimately, he is human - and he'll have to deal with it.

    CYN
  21. Jedi_Knight_Hunter Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2002
    star 4
    But, in Obi's case, what I object to - and can't get beyond - was the incredible cruelty and betrayal of what Master Lunkhead did to his apprentice in the Council chamber. If I see it a thousand times, no one is ever going to convince me that the look on Ewan's face conveys anything except an awareness of the keenness of the blade sliding into his back. Then, to add insult to injury, we have the conversation of the landing platform, culminating in, "Now get on board." Even if the Master had behaved like a total lout all during their association - which he might have - I don't think anything could have prepared the apprentice for those exquisitely painful moments.

    Qui doesn't act before he thinks, everything has to be his way or the highway; maybe that is the perogative of the masters, but most at least listen to the opinions of their senior padawans.

    Qui-Gonn cared for Obi, he just didn't care enough. Obi knew, when Qui refused to take him as a padawan, the first time, that Qui didn't care for him. In TPM, he puts his own beliefs above what is best for his padawan, from the standpoint of the order. He tells Obi that is willing to abandon him to train the chosen one. Obi is not the reckless rebel that Qui is, which is why i think, that Qui is so ready to take on Anakin, yet he shares his master's rep.


    Assuming I understand the JA books, Qui-Gonn never gave his full attention to Obi, rather he was allways in emotional hot water over Xanatos or Tahl. (sp?) Qui is too involved in what he knows to be right to heed anyone else's advice. Obi says something to the effect of obeying the council's orders for once, rather than rushing headlong into another unsacntioned mission. Obi wants to be the perfect example of a padawan, Jinn doesn't care what the rest think about him. I think that one of the reasons everything goes south between them is their personalities clash too much for a true, trusting , loving bond between them.

    That, I think was why he could so carelessly hurt obi, why he could never appologize. It's just a personality flaw, and if their should be any blame for the rise of the empire it should be the council; they should have stuck to thier guns, Obi would have bent to their will, and Anakin would never have developed enough control of his power to help ruin the galaxy. It was Qui's promise to Shmi, not Obi's and not the order, and it could have been written off by sending Ani to the ag-corps where he could have had a comfortable life.

    I don't hate Qui; I hate what he did to Obi.
  22. CYNICAL21 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 2001
    star 4
    In case I haven't said it lately, AHEM - I ADORE THESE RANTS!!!!

    You guys are the best.

    CYN
  23. creelin Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2002
    star 1
    I should be writing, but instead, I'm replying here.

    As I said in Red_Rose_Knight's thread, Qui-Gon's greatest flaw is his pride. He can't see past his pride to accept that he could be wrong or to apologize for his actions. He may regret them later, but he won't admit he's wrong. Because of that, he ends up hurting the people he's closest to.

    I don't think Qui-Gon is a bad person. I don't think he's evil. I think Cyn is right. Obi-Wan wasn't so much afraid of him, as much as he was wary of him. I think Obi-Wan loved and respected his master, but Qui-Gon's constant doubting and brushing aside of Obi-Wan's opinions made him wary of the man. I actually like Qui-Gon and think he's a fascinating character, and I like to see various takes on him.

  24. Padawan_Travina Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 5, 2002
    star 4
    Qui doesn't act before he thinks, everything has to be his way or the highway; maybe that is the perogative of the masters, but most at least listen to the opinions of their senior padawans.

    You hit it right on the nose with this one....I think this was one of his biggest flaws...but then again that is just me..


    Assuming I understand the JA books, Qui-Gonn never gave his full attention to Obi, rather he was allways in emotional hot water over Xanatos or Tahl. (sp?) Qui is too involved in what he knows to be right to heed anyone else's advice.

    That I think was another one of his flaws was that he always let his emotions get the best of him...and when he was hurt..he refused to let anyone else in..

    Now dont get me wrong here..I do understand when we as humans are hurt we due tend to shut down and block those around us..afraid that we might just get hurt again. But in time we learn to trust..maybe not at the same leval as before but we do...And I don't think Qui-Gon every reached that leavl again...

    I think he was afriad that Obi-Wan would do to him what Xani did...or leave him like Thal did...or find some new way to hurt him...and in an attempt to protect himself shut everyone out....

    Until Ani came along...Then I think this protection flaw i guess you could call it..went out the window..I think he thought..Hey Here is the chosen one...he wont go wrong and hurt me like everyone else will..and that it why he was so willing to throw Obi-Wan aside for Anakin...

    Ok enough of that...I think I just confused myself and everyone that read this...

    PT
  25. sabercrazy Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2002
    star 4
    FINIS?????? FINIS?????????

    !!!!!!!!!!AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!

    YA KNOW!!!!!!!! JUST WHEN I WAS STARTING TO WONDER WHY I CHOSE TO DISSAPER FROM YOUR THREADS...JUST WHEN I WAS STARTING TO GET OVER THAT UNEXPLAINABLE FEAR I HAD OF THE VERY THOUGHT OF READING ANYTHING WITH THE NAME CYN UNDER AUTHOR...JUST WHEN I THOUGHT THAT MAYBE...JUST MAYBE...IT WOULDN'T BE AS BAD AS I THOUGHT...I READ THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!

    WHY OH WHY OH WHY WHY WHY WHY???????

    Oh yea...because I'm an idiot and YOU my friend are just too good for words.

    OH and just incase I've got you thinking otherwise...I really DID love it. [face_love]

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.