Phx Alternative punishment in New Mexico

I'm really curious to the results after a couple of years. I know this philosphy has helped me over the years immensely

From CNN.com

SANTA FE, New Mexico (Reuters) -- Crime and punishment have entered a new age in Santa Fe thanks to a local judge who sentences lawbreakers to tai chi, meditation and -- if they are really in need of help -- Japanese tea ceremony.

Judge Frances Gallegos, from the liberal New Mexico city of Santa Fe, allows offenders to take tai chi classes, meditate and participate in a Japanese tea ceremony as part of an alternative sentencing program for young, violent offenders.

"Traditional anger management courses weren't working," said Gallegos, noting that recidivism rates in other types of anger management classes were too high for her liking. The judge listened to the advice of Mark De Francis, a psychologist with the state corrections department who is also a doctor of Oriental medicine.

De Francis believes that some Asian traditions such as tai chi and tea ceremony teach people to find calmness in their thoughts and, "find an inner opponent, rather than outer opponent, to do battle with."

Tai chi, or tai chi chuan, is a Chinese practice of physical exercises used for self-defense and meditation.

Young, violent offenders - mostly cited in domestic violence cases, drunk driving or road rage incidents-- can choose to take the alternative sentencing classes, which began last October, or perform community service tasks, such as collecting garbage.

The 12-week classes are held twice a week for two hours in the lobby of the courthouse, which is filled with candles and mirrors for the occasion. The $180 class cost is paid for by the offenders.

Participants serve each other herbal tea with Kava Kava, a natural calming agent, and finish the class with an acupuncture treatment for relaxation.

 

I've done some anger management stuff myself, and hve seriously considered taking the Tai-Chi classes they hve here at the church a couple mornings a week... I'm just really concerned about my knee

 

Then Tai Chi is perfect for you. It's progressive so you can work and develop the knee, but you're never pushed past what it can handle.....and you're the judge of that.

 

As soon as I know my schedule, I may just start up w/ those classes... Especially since they are right outside my office door

 

Unfortunately, I don't think this type of "therapy" will be anymore effective than the standard anger management programs. It's still a matter of the person's willingness to change and their ability to see that what they did/do was/is wrong. That's not going to change with Tai Chi classes and Chaji. But it's a noble effort for which I approve to some degree.

 

I'd like to propose a different type of alternative punishment:

Public floggings at the courthouse steps.



They could even show them on TV (maybe even pay-per-view) and use the advertising money made to help pay the citie's budget.








Crime and ....punishment. What a novel concept.

 

I'll have to dig up the statistics, but I remember it being something like in excess of 50% of the people currently serving time in the State correctional institutions are there on drug related offenses.

And somewhere around more than 80% never completed a HS education.

I think, that instead of spending all of our time and resources on the effect, we should be dealing w/ the cause a little more. Symptoms never go away, if the cancer is still there.

 

I'm agreeing here about public punishment... I think we need to go back to showing people what it the penalty for things is... I.E. Public executions, floggings etc.

I think they had it right in Starship Troopers (go read the book) - Public punishments, executions televised on all channels (at the same time) on TV etc. I can't help but think that if more people were aware of what actually happens to people who are being punished, it would help cut down on the people who do it again and again...

<opens can of worms>
I also think the Saudi's have it right, in some regards. Drug dealers get the death penalty, and it's done with a sword (decapitation), murderers get the sword, and the only people that can commute the sentence are the family of the victim. It's also interesting to note that the victim's family are required to attend the execution... Thieves lose a hand, every time they get caught...

I sure wish the bleeding hearts would take a look at the pain caused by drug dealers/users, and we could get the death penalty for the dealers... no questions asked... you did it, you get convicted, one appeal then you get the axe... (Hmm... now there's a thought... what about using a guillotine? Fast, painless and easy to work)

Treat the users, because sooner or later, the dealers are going to dry up, so with no supply, the users can't get high... (I find it amusing that both drug dealers and computer manufacturers call their clientele the same thing)

That's just my $.02 on this...

Any takers?

 

I'm a fairly unforgiving person too when it comes to that. My ideas mirror that. Obviously there are "levels" of offense, so it's not a blanket policy, but I'm right up there with you. Rehabilitation helps some, not others....we need something to address the others.


Anyway. I don't think it fair to say it's not going to help much. It will help some much more than the other program did. Obviously it won't help all, but the current system isn't working much so it's high time to expand out.

 

Again I show my true inner colors...

What is to stop these people from committing crimes when they can go to jail and get all the things in life that I have to work for...for free??? I.e.: Cable...3 meals a day... Internet...education.

My boss wrote a paper a while ago about the California prison system...some of the stuff I read made my head hurt. It is like 'Club Med' in there for someone living in the slums. I agree with you Choad, there needs to be a punishment that keeps people from committing the crimes...

 

/opens a vein/ We can all be very stringent in our "tow the line" theories, but until you've been faced w/ little or no options in your life, you can never really understand the difficult nature of life for many of these offenders.

If you can make $1000 in one weekend selling crack on the corner or take a bus for an hour each way to go work at McDonald's for a month to make the same money; which choice are you gonna make?

Those are the people in our corrections system. Scared, poor, uneducated, young men under the age of 25.

I see you're doing the Toy's for Tots, and I know the Choad's have worked w/ the Foster care system, but how much time have you spent (not money, though that always helps) helping the underprivileged in your area? It may be a trite and overused phrase, but "Think Globally, Act Locally" works, in ways you can't even imagine. And it doesn't take that much to make an impact on someone's life.

When you pass a homeless person, you don't have to give them food or money, but smile at them. Make eye contact, just let them know they are not invisible. Something that small can be a huge thing in that person's life.

Instead of complaining about being bored, call up the community center/high school/United Way office/etc. and ask where they need help. If you spent even one hour out of every month helping some project or group the benefits of that hour are immeasurable. Stuff some envelopes, rake some leaves, sweep a floor, paint a wall, clean a room, tutor a child, cook a dinner, make a sandwich, pour a cup of coffee, whatever you feel comfortable doing, but the point is to not be a spectator.

If every person able to commit even one hour a month did so, can you imagine the imapct that would have on society? What would it change, and how many lives could be affected by that change.

/done bleeding now/

 

Public executions and floggings have never been a deterant for crime. I like ZOOs opinion about going to the cause of the criminal behavior and not deal with the symptoms. Though, it's been also proven that nailing down what is the real "cause" of the criminal mindset is next to impossible. So, I'm currently of the opinion that there should be followthrough on punishment, of whatever magnitude, so that criminals understand that there WILL be consequences for their actions. Deliniate exactly what will happen for a crime and then DO IT. Make the laws simple but concise. Make sure that lawyers can't worm their clients out of their due punishment. Sutff like that.

 

And what about those for whom life is already tortuous enough that the Death Penalty or Public Floggings will never be a deterrent. If you have no concept of remorse, regret or consequences, then punishment is never an issue because it hold no merit for them. And the most violent offenders almost always fall into this category. I undertand the need for punishment, however, it is ineffectual as a deterrent. If you wish to deter something than you need to work at the cause of the thing, not the effect.

Punishment for violent offenders is essential, and the most violent offenders should be removed from the population, because there is no cure for their behavior. However, you cannot continue to use capital punishment in the same context as a deterrent. It is a false justification. Be honest, the need to exterminate the most violent offenders is the real reason for capital punishment, not as a deterrent. To use such false justification belittles everyone and has led to much of the turmoil surrounding capital punishment.

And yes, I know that this makes me a person w/ seriously constrasting and conflicting beliefs, but I belief that you cannot completely do away with violence, as it is a large part of human nature, but you can do things to clean up the lesser of the evils which can lead up to extreme violent behavior. So, you can treat the cause, WHILE dealing w/ the symptoms at the same time.

 

Let's just clarify a little...

I don't believe in the death penalty as a deterrent.. because there are people that just don't care...

But we need to realise that there are things that demand the highest penalty possible... just to make sure that those who get involved with it, know that they will pay when (not if) they are caught.

Murder 1, drug dealing, rape, child molestation... These are all things that should carry the death penalty... I don't want to live anywhere there is someone who is guilty of any of the above... They need to be removed from society (and the gene pool), because they won't get better...

Certainly, there may be exceptions to this rule, but we as a society need to say "enough is enough" and stand up for our rights.

The death penalty is not a deterrent, nor is prison time a deterrent to career criminals - it's just another way to live for them.

Nevertheless, there needs to be some sort of consistent penalty - same thing goes for DUI - I like the way the Norweigans do that... 1st offense, you lose your license for a year. If you drive while your license is suspended, it's a felony, and you go to jail and do hard time with other criminals.

2nd Offense? God help you... they revoke the license, permanently, seize your vehicles (you're not getting your license back, ever, so you won't need them anymore...) and auction them off.

Again, if you drive when you're not supposed to, you go to jail. No if's, and's or but's about it... Do not pass "GO", do not collect $200, go directly to jail, first time is 5 years... 2nd is 15 years, 3rd is life. I sure wish we had that kind of system here...

I guess I'm just frustrated because there's too much inconsistency, and loopholes, and and and and .... There needs to be a consistent code of justice, that is enforced and followed the same way, every time. Like, someone gets convicted of crime "A", they get punishment "Z", the next person that gets convicted of crime "A", gets the exact same punishment... no questions asked...

These days, if you get 3 people that commit the same crime, it's a crapshoot to see who gets what punishment...

Fneh...

</soapbox mode>

 

*stands up onto soapbox*

I'm very opinionated generally. I have many thoughts about this subject. However, I'm bound to piss someone off. So, I'll say nothing, because I don't intend to fix any of the problems I bring up.

*gets off of soapbox*

 

Get back on the soapbox, Lord Reaper! I'd love to hear what you have to say.

Personally, I think sending violent offenders to do Tai Chi 2x a week is the biggest (oh void would have to edit it) joke in the world. Besides, ask WardenX, Tai Chi is one of the most deadly martial arts out there! (Don't despair, ZOO! It is a great workout and you're knee will hold up great if you progress slowly . . . don't contradict me, WARDENX!).

I like the public flogging idea. I love Sherriff Joe's Tent camps complete with the pink outfits! Bring back the stockades. Let children throw rotten eggs at criminals. Make people who have gotten DUIs drive cars with big signs on them "I GOT A DUI". Start embarassing people.

BRING BACK BEAR BAITING!!!!! . . . maybe not.

Just think of it. Stupid little gangbangers who think they are so (VOIDY EDIT) tough getting put in the stockades and everyone gets to throw rotten eggs, tomatoes, etc. at them. (UM, we might want to blind fold them so they don't see who threw what).

I LIKE this idea!!!!!

Tatoos for criminals! Tatoo their crime on their forehead! AHAHAHAHHAHAHAH!

 

//What Choad said.//




Honestly, I don't buy the bleeding heart attitude and/or mindset. Honestly, I don't care why they are breaking the law, the fact is they did --therefore they should pay the price. Period.

Also, it enrages me to see people in prison getting treated better than people who are serving to protect the country. I've been to (on tour) prisons that were a WHOLE lot nicer than many military bases I've served on. Add onto that the free cable, magazine subscriptions and all the ther perks, it appears that many jails in America are almost Disneyland with barbed wire. Where is the incentive to avoid punishment? Oh that's right, they'll do a plea bargain and be out in 6 months, violate their probation then do it again.


Bleed all you want, oh-left wingers, but as far as I'm concerned, if someone breaks the law, they should pay the price. Whatever that price may be.

I'd say more, but it's been a long night and it's time for bed....

 

Ok... I know this is gonna shock some of you but here goes. You will never find a black and white legal system. Let me give you an example. Theft. You steal something you get your hand cut off. Person A steals a TV, Person B steals some money from an employer person C steals some food. They all should have a hand cut off, right?

Person A is a gangbanger doing it for initation.
Person B took the money to buy his grandparents thier needed RX drugs because social security doesn't cover it and he's afraid they are going to die without them
Person C is a bored habitual thief that does it for the thrill.

Sometimes you have to look at MOTIVE along with the crime. They are still crimes and they are still based on human emotion.

Zoo had the right idea. We do need to get to the source. We need to start at home. We need to take a firm hand with our kids (not abusive but none of this kinder gentler "time out" nonesene) We need to be in agreement with our spouses and set a consistant role model for our children. We also need to go back to the good old days of "when in rome" It used to take a town to raise a child. In other words if Beaver was over at Wallies and acting like a dork, he was gonna get disciplined there and then sent home and his Mom and Dad were gonna know about it. Now days you can't touch your own children, much less anyone elses. There are some children though who know with just a warning voice that they aren't suppose to do something. Like Jacob for instance, we've all spent time with Le Prince. All you have to do is say "Jacob, no no" in a 1/2 way stern voice and he knows better and he won't do it" But, with kids like .... well Jeffrey when he was young... he needed a beating once a day... if his parent's didn't know why he most certanly did

Also, yes, devoting time to the community is great. I still do quite a bit and working on getting Jeff involved too. One of the things I really miss about Payson is the stuff I was involved in, this is not intended to "brag" but I spent about 20 hours a week working in the community on top of dispatching (50-60 hours most weeks). Everything from the Police Special Olympics (no comments from the peanut gallery) Each year law enforcement around the states host the special olympics for mentally and physically chalenged children and adults. The departments hold "torch runs" that raise money for the olympics each year. I was also into Foster care there as well as several community programs with the town. The parks and rec director worked directly with DES/CPS and they provided 3 nights a week where under privleged kids (ones still living WITH thier parents) could come and have a hot meal and hang out and play in a group settting) these are kids that came from homes without running water or electricity (still exists in rural arizona)and didn't have a lot. there were also kids in the CPS system that participated in activites that were made free (like swiming and little league and pop warner etc) But it took an entire town to raise these kids. It took the police department and DES and CPS and the school's and community donations and volunteer work etc etc etc. to raise these kids and give them a chance.

So to wrap up my rantings... we need to start at home with our kids or the plans for raising our kids when we have them. We need to start helping those already out there in society who need some guidance. and we need to come up with stronger punishment for those already int he system or working thier way that direction. I'm all for punishment, don't get me wrong, I can think of a few people I'd like to see at the "end of a rope" but we also need to temper that with stopping the problems before they start. We can't just focus on the punishment of Crime and Punishment without focusing on the Cause of Crime. Just like it has takne 1/2 a century to totally screw up our society it's gonna take several generations to fix it.

We don't just raise children. WE mold the future leaders of tomorrow. Every powerful leader was the product of a mothers upbringing or

 

I agree with the part about raising kids correctly - however, there are people that just don't... So we need to have an effective enforcement/penalty system in place.

Like the Saudis... I know they are barbarians and all <opens another can of worms> but they have a consistent system... The only person that can pardon the offender, is the person they offended. Kid steals from employer to get RX for grandparents? That's breaking the law. The victim can choose not to have the law enforced, but it's up to them. Same with capital punishment, the victim's family are the only ones that can commute the sentence. For crimes against the state (drug offenses etc.) the only person (as I understand it) that can pardon them, is King Saud. (that's why they call it Saudi Arabia, I wonder what happens when the Sauds are out of power... heh heh)

 

Thank you CG, that's where I was going w/ it. I just got a little caught up Well said

 

heh, i should be booting all of you to the senate forum and hand you over to knightwriter


no wait, something about cruel and unusual punishment...

 

I just read this and I'm stunned.