Always Two There Are: Unraveling the Mysteries of the Sith

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by xSithHappensx, Mar 10, 2003.

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  1. xSithHappensx Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 2002
    star 2
    Hi all. Usually I just lurk here, but I thought I'd do a little sef-promotion. ;)

    I've written an editorial over at episode-x that presents a few theories regarding the history of the Sith Order as well as what we may find out in Episode 3. It's too long to post here in it's entirety so if you want, you can read it here. I'd appreciate any feedback.

    There's no real spoilers, just speculation, so Sapient told me to repost it here.

    Thanks
  2. Jedi Daniel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2000
    star 5
    I read all the theories and it was a very interesting read. It opened my mind up to many more possibilities and theory 3 sounds the best for me.

    It's great know about about the history of the Sith and the '2 rule' as well.
  3. SaberGiiett7 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2002
    star 6
    Good work xSithHappensx and great thread idea. :cool:

    I confer with Jedi Daniel. All the information stamped out in the TPM novelization although its not as fun as the Exapnded Universe is for the most part Lucas' vision on Sith history. :D

    Since I don't have anything else to do I'll give my general view on all 3 questions. 8-}

    How did the Jedi discover the rule of 2?

    This is the tuffest of the 3 questions. I think even though their power and dominon over the part of the galaxy wen't extinct the background sense of their prescense remained and grew stronger in moments when their schemeing came to fruitation such as in the beginning of TPM when Qui Gon sensed the disturbence in the Force. And its even kind of safe to say some time during the countless years they hung low that at a point the Jedi caught up with them but the Master or Apprentice got away to live on another day. :)

    How did they survive so long without getting noticed?

    Probably its atributed to Darth Bane's philosophy that the Sith were no less powerful for staying hidden and using stealth tactics to acummulate strengh. Afterall they devoted most of their power to cloaking themselves and even into TPM right under the Jedi's nose's on Coruscant. :)

    How did they become extinct to begin with?

    Internal discontent + mighty war with the Jedi factions. (the article) [face_mischief]

    <[-]> Saber
  4. DarthAttorney Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2000
    star 6
    Very nice editorial there, Sith Happens, thanks for the links to Dr Dave's old-school essay at T'bone's too. :)

    Now...where to start?

    I'll say straight-up that I'm of the opinion that Palpatine is the culmination of 2000 years of Sith teaching and training. If Anakin is a Christ figure (in hero/myth sense) then Palpatine is undoubtedly the Anti-Christ figure, the ultimate embodiment of all that is corrupt and evil within the GFFA.

    The main question for me (in both the articles) is how the Jedi...and Yoda in particular....knew that there are always two Sith, a Master and an Apprentice. I don't know how to start explaining this away. It's entirely possible that between the foundation of Bane's "rule of two" Sith Order and 1000 years pre-TPM, the Jedi came into contact with the Sith numerous times and learnt about their system. Then sometime around 1000 years pre-TPM there was a confilct after which the Jedi assumed the Sith extinct. And yet they still take the precaution of teaching all of their Jedi members about the Sith because Qui-Gon clearly recognises Darth Maul for what he is after Tatooine. The Jedi know how cunning the Sith can be, they assume they are extinct but aren't bold enough to forget them as dead and buried.

    Edit: One other thing I wanted to add as an afterthought was the duplicity of the Sith against each other, Master vs. Apprentice. We see in the OT that both Vader and Sidious have plans to use Luke to off the other. I think I read somewhere that it wasn't uncommon for an Apprentice to whack a Master who was holding them back or Master to whack an inept Apprentice. This could be another possibility for that millennia ago thing, as Sith Happens mentioned in his editorial, that an Apprentice may have taken his own Apprentice prematurely and the Jedi may have caught them and therefore assumed both Master and Apprentice dead. Not a big stretch where the Sith are concerned.

  5. toochilled Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 17, 2000
    star 5
    great Ed dude


    If Sid is Syfo then it fits in very well with Dooku's history.
    I think it was the Visual Dictionary that talked of Yoda knowing that Dooku was experimenting with the dark side.
    Syfo and Dooku could have been cooperating back then {Dooku left - syfo dies at the same time}

    With Dooku playing 'a little' with the dark side this could have distracted Yoda from looking further into the emergence of the dark side. Any dark side 'senses' that Yoda picked up on he may have asumed was from his padowan {dooku}.

    It also should be remembered that the Jedi have a dark side {can't remember the word - a triangle sithy thing } in their library and that in the shooting script Yoda talks about going to seclusion to 'probe the dark side' so it's not too hard at all for Jedi's to access Sith history / theories / teachings.....
  6. xSithHappensx Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 2002
    star 2
  7. toochilled Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 17, 2000
    star 5
  8. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    Great editorial, SH!

    As crazy as scenario 3 may sound, I happen to like it alot. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if this will be part of Palpy's revelation in EpIII. It's an awesome theory and I envy you for coming up with it before me ;)
  9. xSithHappensx Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 2002
    star 2
    One other thing I wanted to add as an afterthought was the duplicity of the Sith against each other, Master vs. Apprentice. We see in the OT that both Vader and Sidious have plans to use Luke to off the other. I think I read somewhere that it wasn't uncommon for an Apprentice to whack a Master who was holding them back or Master to whack an inept Apprentice. This could be another possibility for that millennia ago thing, as Sith Happens mentioned in his editorial, that an Apprentice may have taken his own Apprentice prematurely and the Jedi may have caught them and therefore assumed both Master and Apprentice dead. Not a big stretch where the Sith are concerned.
    That's actually the option I tend to lead toward as well, but Scenario 3 is much more fun! I'm realizing all too quickly what a geek I really am.

    Thanks to everyone for your kind words.
  10. Darth Pikachuwbacca Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 22, 2000
    star 4
    In TPM, only Yoda and Mace speak of the "rule of two." My guess was that at some point, while he was younger, Yoda found out about it, but the Sith got away, or something. So Yoda knows about it, and knows the Sith are still out there. And only a few Jedi are in on this knowledge. Hence, Ki-Adi thought that the Sith were extinct for 1000 years. When Mace says he doubts the Sith could have returned without them knowing, Yoda says the Dark Side is hard to see. And the look he gives Mace is a sort of "See, I told you they're still out there."

    That's my theory.
  11. Darth-Dispicable Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2003
    star 4
    WOW!! just wow. I would really like to see version 3 play out in EP III, even though I doubt it will (shame).

    As DarthAttorney touched on earlier. I believe that most Sith are always looking for a way to advance his/her position, If that means breaking the only 2 rule then no prob.

    The only way to know for sure will be to wait for EP III (I can only hope that GL will do his best to answer all the loose ends).

    Again, WOW. I will definatly add this site to my fav list.
  12. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    However, there was really no need to change Sido-Dias to Sifo-Dyas and add the concept of changelings if the only purpose was to have Sidious/Palpatine be the clawdite Sifo-Dyas.
    There has got to be more to this Sifo-Dyas thing. I do believe, though, that Sifo-Dyas might still be out there and that he is indeed a changeling.
    Could he be Mas Amedda...?
  13. Darth-Ruka Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 3, 2003
    Great Write Up I enjoyed reading it. One thing people are overlooking is the rule of two has only been stated by Jedi. Sith are evil, corrupt and power hungry. If taking on more than one apprentice will serve Sidious's purpose than I could see him disobeying the rule. If he breaks the rule he won't spontaneously combust...he can bend or break the rules to fit his needs. I like theory 2 where Sidious was once trained as as an apprentice first then became Master. His master could have trained him from an early age and taught him to shield himself from the Jedi so they couldn't find him. In TPM novel Sidious and Maul would sit in front of the temple watching the Jedi go in and out and were never noticed due to Sidious Shielding powers.

    Sidious is all about power and if more than one apprentice gives him more power then so be it....
  14. Darth-Dispicable Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2003
    star 4
    Well said Darth-Ruka. I tend to believe the same thing but I get jumped on everytime I say it. Why would an evil person care about a rule? They dont. What would the benefit be to keeping only 1 apprentice? None. What or who would deter him from breaking the rules? Nothing and nobody. Sideous seems to change apprentices at the drop of a hat, it would not be a far stretch for him to overlap some of their training.
  15. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    Which brings us to the scenario where Sidious has taken on both Sifo-Dyas and Dooku as apprentices. That would be the most simple and logic answer to the mystery surrounding the late Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas!
  16. DellowFelegate Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2002
    star 1
    There seems to be a common misunderstanding about how the Rule of Two works and why it exists. Often, we think of a rule as the expression of an individual's will. In such a view, following the rule means submitting one's own will to another's, and breaking the rule means ignoring or fighting the will of another. The posters on this board are right--if the Rule of Two were simply the will of Darth Bane, there would be NO reason for any later Sith to respect it.

    I submit, however, that the Rule of Two should be called the Law of Two, because it is more like a physical law. That is, it results not from anyone's will or decree but from what the Sith are. Sith lords are so self-serving, so power hungry, that they cannot abide the presence of power in another, even another Sith. Thus, they destroy one another. Only when the number is down to two does the survival of the other Sith enter the realm of self-interest. The Apprentice needs the Master as a source of more power and skills, and the Master needs the Apprentice as a legacy, a guarantee that the Sith live on.

    Bane's pronouncement of the Law of Two is like Maxwell's publication of his equations. Nothing to do with announcing his will, just a profound insight into the way things are.

    Note that I can 'break' physical law, say, by holding two magnets with their north poles touching. However, in doing so I create an unstable situation, which reverts to the proper condition as soon as I let the magnets go (or before, if I'm not holding them with enough force.) Similarly, a Sith can introduce a third or fourth person to the order, but this creates an unstable situation which reverts to the Law of Two as extra Sith are destroyed. This is why the Law of Two always holds.
  17. TheChosen1 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 13, 2001
    star 4
    Sith Happens, your article rocks. I always thought the origin of the Sith to be super interesting and could be a trilogy of movies unto itself. I have to disagree on one thing though. I totally don't like the Sifo Dyas is Sidious clawdite thing. I'd like to think Sidious is the result of thousands of years of Sith training and patience. Just because we never see Sidious' master doesn't mean he never had one. Sidious could have even killed his own master once he figured he learned all he could from him.

    He doesn't even have to be from Naboo. He could have immigrated to Naboo from a young age and begun his plan to rule the galaxy by becoming a Senator. He could have carefully chose Naboo because it best served his needs. It was relatively a peaceful planet. Representing such a planet during a time of crisis could have easily garnered him the sympathy vote needed to get into a position of power. His powers of manipulation and ability to forsee the future kept him on the path to domination. His abilities to remain hidden are Sith powers which have been passed down throughout the generations.
  18. xSithHappensx Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 2002
    star 2
    Thanks. But that was only one scenario. I agree that he more than likely WAS trained.
  19. TheChosen1 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 13, 2001
    star 4
    Yeah, I know what you meant. I just disagree with those who thought that the clawdite scenario was the coolest one. I think that although its imaginative, its kind of ridiculous.

    What do you think of a series of novels based on the emergence of the Sith? Or based on Count Dooku or Sidious' life? These would be written after Episode 3 of course, to avoid inconsistancies. Or do you think its better that these stories remain a mystery?
  20. xSithHappensx Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 2002
    star 2
  21. D_Lowe Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2002
    star 6
    I am more in favor of scenario number two.
  22. xSithHappensx Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 2002
    star 2
    Scenario 2 is most likely how things happened. More specifically, the option where the apprentice attempted to take on an apprentice of his own and destroy his master. I don't like the idea that the Jedi just assumed they were extinct.
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