Am I supposed to feel SORRY for him?!!

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by Widowlander, May 19, 2005.

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  1. yoshifett Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2004
    star 5
    Most of my posts involve, if only in some tiny way, the mocking of Tom Cruise.
  2. PadwanKayla Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2005
    star 4
    I think Dark-Disciple has it right - Anakin needed to hear that his premonitions were not necessarily going to come true, that the future was always in motion. Yoda himself had said the Dark Side had clouded the future. I wonder why Yoda would not have reiterated that sentiment with Anakin.

    But in the end, I think RebelScum?s comment is correct Everyone but Palpatine fails in ROTS- Anakin, Obi-Wan, Yoda, Mace, Padme... etc. That's one of its lessons. Palpatine did not help Anakin meet his objective of saving Padme, but Palpatine did not fail in his goal.
  3. Dark Lady Mara Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 1999
    star 7
    Agreed. In fact, I'm of the opinion that Padme was never in danger at all and it was Palpatine who'd been causing Anakin to have the premonitions all along, so you could say Palpy was completely successful in his aims. He managed to make the dreams convincing enough that Anakin willingly handed over control of his own destiny.
  4. EwokThatCried Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2003
    star 4
    I don't think Palpatine created the dreams. Anakin did. I think it came about after hearing news of Padme's pregnancy which sparked worry that their secret might be uncovered and they would be scorned.

    Fear triggered the dream. Fear of loss - both of Padme and his quest for power in the Order - that they would both lose their status, so Anakin became even more obsessed with protecting what was his. He became more possessive.

    Anakin was warned about sensing the future and fretting over things he could not control. A trained Jedi should already know it is a dangerous line to walk when leading your life based on premonitions rooted in fear and guilt.

    Yoda explained it in as simple of terms as possible. He told Anakin to tread carefully. Maybe had he taken the time to confess his situation, Yoda would have had more input. But Anakin wasn't forthcoming, almost deceptive, in his responses.
  5. mandragora Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    Well, at first, I was laughing at this, too - but isn't psychology the science of dealing with the dark side, basically?
  6. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Obi-wan would've already taught Anakin that the future was in motion. What Anakin's problem is that he doesn't believe it. He's 2-0 regarding the future coming true. He doesn't want to go 3-0.

    Yoda also made it clear in ROTJ that death is a part of life, and that there is no stopping it.

    Yoda: "Twilight is upon me and soon, night must fall. That is the way of things. The way of the Force."

    Luke: "Master Yoda, you can't die."

    Yoda: "Strong am I with the Force, but not that strong."

    Even in the end, Anakin accepts that death is a natural part of life.

    Anakin: "Luke, help me...take this mask off."

    Luke: "But you'll die."

    Anakin: "Nothing...can stop that now."

  7. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    ewok that cried: You act as if the truth about death is somehow unfair. Death is a part of life. It is not something you can choose to stop. It may seem unfair that your loved ones must die when they do, but it's not up to you to decide when or if they die. You can only accept the truth and be at peace, or you can be consumed by fear, greed and anger. Either way, death is a universal constant.

    it is unfair. it's an ancient mythological topic. just because it's a universal constant doesn't mean you cannot get worked up about it. just because it's part of who we are doesn't mean you should just go about your own business. nothing makes it right. it happens, but it isn't right.

    and i was referring to death with the unfairness angle.
    if you feel that this is something that oughta be *fixed* then you are indeed on a downward spiral, but that doesn't mean that you are wrong. it just means that you'll need to learn that there's nothing you can do to fix it. and yoda, quite admirably, screws up on the empathy level. he just says, suck it up, your visions don't really mean anything, unless they come true and then we'll talk about it again. or he says, you are going down a dangerous path. there is no comfort in knowing this, don't you think?

    and my point is still that he makes no effort to reach out.

    Yoda explained it in as simple of terms as possible. He told Anakin to tread carefully. Maybe had he taken the time to confess his situation, Yoda would have had more input. But Anakin wasn't forthcoming, almost deceptive, in his responses.

    ah, but why is he? and if that's the sole argument to say, but anakin didn't relate his life story when he spoke to yoda, then it's still invalid. this doesn't mean you cannot *try* to reach out. an order which is so heavy on compassion offers *nothing*.
    i tell ya, they don't give a toss about this guy, be he irrational or not.

    i'm getting rather tired of the mood in this thread. the unanimous opinion is that anakin is greedy and selfish and that he should know better and that the jedi are beyond reproach and whatever really.

    sinister, if you buy the whole thing about the jedi setting themselves up *against* the sith, then you also accept the restrictions they place, then you should also accept that someone, who has, say, sith elements to himself, is by default made to ignore or repress parts of his personality because it's against the rules to act on such and such.
    ergo, anakin is resricted to a side of his personality, he cannot grow fully because it's against the rules to grow as he is inclined to do (and now we repeat the whole thing about which emotion is which and blablabla - it's getting rather redundant, don't you think)

    anakin has more issues than that, but this is the key. the full potential of his force powers isn't available to him because it's dark side stuff. it's still the force, but he cannot use all of it. so, they are holding him back.

    luke was in a much different situation. there was no need to grow close to someone, because he wasn't in danger of being killed off any minute. luke wasn't a slave.

    His abilities make him arrogant, which is why he has trouble following the rules. By that same tolken, if he had been allowed to marry Padme free and clear, he would've still been tempted by the Dark Side once he had his vision.

    you're reaching here. i'm reaching as well, just for the record. there is no way to know for sure.
    he has trouble following the rules because he cannot follow them. (btw, he has trouble following the rules because they are pointless and restrictive and they don't allow for making mistakes, but that's such a colored judgement)

    This is where the Master/Padawan relationship comes in. The Master takes his/her Padawan out in the field and teaches them right and wrong through experience. Anakin has all of that from Obi-wan, but he still doesn't get it. He's still used to that nine year old mentality of everyone should be forced to do something, regardless of whether they like it or not.
  8. Clone_Assasin Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 14, 2005
    The Jedi wouldn't even accept him back now that he'd caused the death of about all the Jedi. Anakin was an annoying character from the start anyway. Who asks someone if they're an angel?
    He's much cooler with his armor than the whingy teen in Episode 2, and I say he should stay that way.
  9. rhonderoo Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2002
    star 9
    I'm beginning to think this is so, the more I see ROTS.
  10. Charn Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 23, 2004
    star 8
    i don't believe that. Jedi have dreams, premonitions...Anakin is the chosen one, if anyone can have these dreams he can. Palpatine is not God, I doubt he can plant dreams in Anakin's mind.


    Edit: promotions? what was I thinking...[face_laugh]
  11. RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2003
    star 6
    No one is saying that Anakin should have been coddled, but it's clearly a mistake to think of Anakin as any other Jedi. That approach has never worked with him, and really through no fault of his own. He's not like the other Jedi, he's the Chosen One who lived with a mother for 10 years. But no one was ever flexible with him. That DOESN'T mean let him do whatever he wants, or use it as an excuse. Anakin is responsible for his own actions, no one is denying that. According to Lucas a large part of the reason the Jedi fell was their inflexibility. They couldn't see the Sith had returned because they weren't looking. They had no concept that the Sith's plan might have been to destroy them from the inside. They actually had the Chosen One of the prophecy in their midst but couldn't grasp the potential danger of that, they never seemed to try and figure out why the Force would choose a boy raised by a real mother. They tried to train him like every other Jedi had been for a thousand years, even though he wasn't like any other Jedi. Their rigidity made them brittle and eventually they broke. Star Wars isn't just a morality tale about what greed and anger can do to even the greatest hero, but also how the nobelest order can be destroyed from within through inflexibility and arrogance.
  12. EwokThatCried Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2003
    star 4
    You keep saying "Anakin wasn't like any other Jedi" so they needed to treat him differently.

    Remember, the Council didn't want Anakin trained at all - Chosen One or not. Yoda tried desperately to talk Obi-Wan out of it. I'm sure Mace felt the same way.

    Yoda: The Chosen One the boy may be; nevertheless, grave fear I sense in his training.

    But when they reluctantly agreed to train him, they were going to train him as a Jedi - not as a Chosen One.

    Being the Chosen One does not give Anakin dominion over right and wrong. He's still subject to temptation and is just as fallible as any other Jedi. They train him how they train everyone else because it is the way they have done in for millennia.

    You believe the Jedi needed to be flexible. In what way? Allow Anakin to pursue his passions?

    The Jedi Order fell because of it's relationship to the Republic and because it would not adapt to the corruption within the Republic, not because it wasn't flexible to the passions and greed of those within the Order.

    Was Anakin's relationship to Padme wrong? In the sense that it was against the rules, yes.

    Anakin always had the choice to leave the Jedi Order and pursue an open life with Padme. Instead, they chose to hide it; they deceived everyone, just like Palpatine had deceived everyone. They both knew from the start that if they chose this path and decided to live a lie, it would destroy them.

    I don't see how the Jedi are to blame at all for this dilemma that Anakin and Padme created.

    They trained Anakin as a Jedi because that is what he wanted and that is what they did - train Jedi. They don't sit about and discuss ways to pamper the Chosen One because they are still exploring whether or not Anakin is actually the Chosen One to begin with.

    And guess what. Maybe if Anakin had just used patience and completed his training to became a Master of the Force, the Jedi - in particular Yoda - would have begun to work with him and meditate on his calling as Chosen One. But Anakin can't get past go without breaking rules, defying his mentors and acting on his own will.

    He's like 22 years old and he has no patience. Yoda is like 900 years old and things seem to have worked out for him as a Jedi.

    It's not because Anakin was the Chosen One that everything happens the way it does... it's because Anakin made it happen or let it happen in some cases.





  13. jvberggren Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2004
    star 4
    nice post ewok!

    i'm also wondering what people suggest the jedi should've done differently...

    but i suppose they really are to blame in the sense that they had no experience in how to train or deal with a cry-baby :p
  14. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    You keep saying "Anakin wasn't like any other Jedi" so they needed to treat him differently.

    Remember, the Council didn't want Anakin trained at all - Chosen One or not. Yoda tried desperately to talk Obi-Wan out of it. I'm sure Mace felt the same way.

    Yoda: The Chosen One the boy may be; nevertheless, grave fear I sense in his training.

    But when they reluctantly agreed to train him, they were going to train him as a Jedi - not as a Chosen One.


    Which is still their choice. they didnt have to train in. But when they chose to they should ahve realsied that he was unlike anyone else in the order. He had special circumstances.

    Being the Chosen One does not give Anakin dominion over right and wrong. He's still subject to temptation and is just as fallible as any other Jedi. They train him how they train everyone else because it is the way they have done in for millennia.

    And it didnt work. Kenobi was too inexperienced and did a p*** poor job. the Jedi were to inflexible and expected too much from Anakin. They should have been more flexible with him.

    You believe the Jedi needed to be flexible. In what way? Allow Anakin to pursue his passions?

    No - understand he has them and its much harder for him to let go. They failed to teach Anakin how to deal with his emotions, treated him like everyone else and in the end the rules of the jedi order were too much for him to live with. The Jedi's main mistake though IMO was the fact that they were beguiled by the sith - they ended up doing the siths bidding which led to Anakins mistrust in them and his turn to Palpatine for help.

    The Jedi Order fell because of it's relationship to the Republic and because it would not adapt to the corruption within the Republic, not because it wasn't flexible to the passions and greed of those within the Order.

    The Jedi appear to have forgotten that evil can't simply be stamped out, and that their mandate is to help maintain a balance between good and evil. Complacent for too long, they have dropped the ball. They dismissed Dooku as a political idealist, failed to prevent the Separatists from creating a vast army, and allowed themselves to be beguiled by Palpatine. Worse, they have placed too much trust in the prophesised Chosen One. Sidious, meanwhile, the culmination of 1,000 years of Sith training, has been watching the Jedi closely, and gaining strength at their expense.

    Was Anakin's relationship to Padme wrong? In the sense that it was against the rules, yes.

    But they should have been aware of the potential of a situation like this. Instead of banning everything they should have just trained each Jedi how to deal with thier emotions. They merely ban everything THAT could lead to attachment instead of allowing relationships that could become healthy, natural and kept together through unconditional love - not possession. They feared the effects of the dark side and feared the dark side in people (and themslves) instead of confronting it and moving past it.

    Anakin always had the choice to leave the Jedi Order and pursue an open life with Padme. Instead, they chose to hide it; they deceived everyone, just like Palpatine had deceived everyone. They both knew from the start that if they chose this path and decided to live a lie, it would destroy them.

    Anakin certainly made terrible choices. But the blame cannot fall on him alone. He has a background unlime any jedi. He was the kind of person that would fall in love - no one can help that. They ended up having to keep it a secret which lead to greater problems had they not have had to do that.

    I don't see how the Jedi are to blame at all for this dilemma that Anakin and Padme created.

    They're not to blame for all of it. Anakin made his own choices. But those choices developed from the life that the Jedi allowed him to have.

    They trained Anakin as a Jedi because that is what he wanted and that is what they did - train Jedi. They don't sit about and discuss ways to pamper the Chosen One becaus
  15. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    thank you, master shaitan.

    when you take on a student, you take responsibility for that person. they failed taking responsibility not only for who anakin was but also for their decision to take him on.

    a ten-year-old is in no way prepared to take on his own training.
  16. EwokThatCried Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2003
    star 4
    You keep saying "Anakin wasn't like any other Jedi" so they needed to treat him differently. Remember, the Council didn't want Anakin trained at all - Chosen One or not. Yoda tried desperately to talk Obi-Wan out of it. I'm sure Mace felt the same way. Yoda: "The Chosen One the boy may be; nevertheless, grave fear I sense in his training."
    But when they reluctantly agreed to train him, they were going to train him as a Jedi - not as a Chosen One. />

    Obi-Wan said he was going to train the boy with or without the Council's approval. He twisted their arms and they reluctantly agreed.

    You think because Anakin wasn't born a Jedi that they should create a seperate set of rules for him. Anakin was joining the Order; they weren't joining him.

    It's the same stale argument. "He had special circumstance... he was unique. They needed to be flexible" So what? That means he can't learn patience? Obey rules? Shut his mouth?

    Give some examples of what the Jedi should have allowed him to do? Live with his mommy? Make out with Padme - marry her? Talk smack to his mentors? Kill people who made him angry?

    What are you proposing the Jedi do for Anakin so he's content?

    Being the Chosen One does not give Anakin dominion over right and wrong. He's still subject to temptation and is just as fallible as any other Jedi. They train him how they train everyone else because it is the way they have done in for millennia. />

    Show me how Obi-Wan did a terrible job. Did he not teach Anakin patience? Did he not teach him respect? Did he not teach him to bridle his passions? Did he not warn him about getting involved with Palpatine?

    Everything Obi-Wan taught Anakin, he rejected and did the opposite. And he lied. He deceived. Instead of saying, "you know Obi-Wan, this isn't working out for me. I'm in love with Padme and I know I can't be committed to her and the Order, so I am going to leave the Jedi and build a life with her..." he decided to try and have everything he wanted because he could not forsake power and glory for Padme or foresake Padme for the Jedi.

    Anakin was selfish.

    The Jedi can warn him, they can counsel him, they can chastise him and they can show their support (which Obi-Wan always seemed to despite Anakin's arrogance) - but short of expelling him or bending him over his knee and spanking the brat, I just don't understand what else was expected of Obi-Wan.

    Even Anakin adored Obi-Wan - it's just that he wanted more power and authority than Obi-Wan. He was impatient and reckless.

    You believe the Jedi needed to be flexible. In what way? Allow Anakin to pursue his passions? />

    You have no idea what you're talking about for a couple of reasons. First, you don't know that Obi-Wan didn't provide him the extra care and support when he was younger. Second, you ignore Obi-Wan's intimate conversations with Anakin about his mother and the bad dreams, about his feelings for Padme, and about his close relationship with Palpatine.

    Obi-Wan was extremely understanding and very careful and wise in his advice/>/>/>
  17. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    Obi-Wan said he was going to train the boy with or without the Council's approval. He twisted their arms and they reluctantly agreed.

    Beside the point. they still agreed. It was up to them to get the training right. Just because they didnt want to train him doesnt mean they should train him badly.

    You think because Anakin wasn't born a Jedi that they should create a seperate set of rules for him. Anakin was joining the Order; they weren't joining him.

    Still doesnt matter. New car - wrong petrol.

    It's the same stale argument. "He had special circumstance... he was unique. They needed to be flexible" So what? That means he can't learn patience? Obey rules? Shut his mouth?

    Give some examples of what the Jedi should have allowed him to do? Live with his mommy? Make out with Padme - marry her? Talk smack to his mentors? Kill people who made him angry?

    What are you proposing the Jedi do for Anakin so he's content?


    I'll be here all day if i list everything they could have done. But to tie it all up - the jedi were supposed to be his family - yet he didnt feel able to tell them about anything. Is that the way a family should work?

    Also, the faults in the jedi order lead to a problem with all the Jedi. If the top dogs were arrogant - then what would that mean for Anakin?

    Show me how Obi-Wan did a terrible job. Did he not teach Anakin patience? Did he not teach him respect? Did he not teach him to bridle his passions? Did he not warn him about getting involved with Palpatine?

    "I thought I could train him as well as Yoda - I was wrong".

    He failed to teach Anakin how to think. He failed to help Anakin work through his emotions. He failed to help Anakin overcome the dark side. Kenobi was a s*** teacher. Good friend but s*** teacher.

    Everything Obi-Wan taught Anakin, he rejected and did the opposite. And he lied. He deceived. Instead of saying, "you know Obi-Wan, this isn't working out for me. I'm in love with Padme and I know I can't be committed to her and the Order, so I am going to leave the Jedi and build a life with her..." he decided to try and have everything he wanted because he could not forsake power and glory for Padme or foresake Padme for the Jedi.

    yes - he was greedy. But look at him in TPM;

    "He gives with no thought of reward"

    Compare that to how he is in AOTC - Kenobi messed up somewhere.

    Anakin was selfish.

    yep.

    The Jedi can warn him, they can counsel him, they can chastise him and they can show their support (which Obi-Wan always seemed to despite Anakin's arrogance) - but short of expelling him or bending him over his knee and spanking the brat, I just don't understand what else was expected of Obi-Wan.

    But Anakin wasnt always selfish. That cam after he became a jedi.

    Even Anakin adored Obi-Wan - it's just that he wanted more power and authority than Obi-Wan. He was impatient and reckless.

    yep.

    You have no idea what you're talking about for a couple of reasons. First, you don't know that Obi-Wan didn't provide him the extra care and support when he was younger. Second, you ignore Obi-Wan's intimate conversations with Anakin about his mother and the bad dreams, about his feelings for Padme, and about his close relationship with Palpatine.

    "Dreams pass in time"

    Nice one Kenobi!

    "Be careful of your thoughts Anakin - they betray you. You have made a committment to the Jedi Order - a committment not easily broken".

    Again - well done Kenobi!

    Obi-Wan was extremely understanding and very careful and wise in his advice to Anakin on all those counts. Again, you can lead a horse to water...

    No - he wasnt a good mentor. All he was to Anakin was a brother - a friend. As a teacher he failed him in every way. he says it himself!:

    "I have failed you Anakin!"

    I will respond to the rest later.
  18. EwokThatCried Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2003
    star 4
    You ignored everything I typed. I'm not interested in any further response from you. You have an agenda and you will ignore very specific facts from the movies in order to push your agenda on these boards. You're so attached to your theories that you are losing a grip on the very specific and plain details set out in the scripts.

    You want proof of family among the Jedi and in particular, Obi-Wan and Anakin?

    OBI-WAN: You look tired.

    ANAKIN: I don't sleep well anymore.

    OBI-WAN: Because of your mother?

    ANAKIN: I don't know why I keep dreaming about her now. I
    haven't seen her since I was little.

    OBI-WAN: Dreams pass in time.

    ANAKIN: I'd rather dream of Padmé. Just being around her
    again is... intoxicating.

    OBI-WAN: Be mindful of your thoughts, Anakin, they betray
    you. You've made a commitment to the Jedi Order... a
    commitment not easily broken... and don't forget she's a
    politician. They're not to be trusted.


    Obi-Wan is very concerned for Anakin and he even brings up Shmi first. He cares for Anakin and the boy trusts his mentor enough to share his intimate feelings.

    Earlier Obi-Wan even calmed Anakin's anxieties over Padme and told him Padme was pleased to see them. But beyond that Obi-Wan's not going to encourage Anakin to love her. He told him to be careful. What he said was true. "Don't concentrate on that Anakin, you have other commitments."

    What was he to say, Shaitan? You never offer any alternatives. You bitch about what the Jedi didn't do, then you give no specific examples of how they should react to Anakin saying stuff like "I want to dream about Padme at night."

    "Sure Anakin, go tap that."

    OBI-WAN: Why do I get the feeling you're going to be the
    death of me?!

    ANAKIN: Don't say that Master... You're the closest thing I
    have to a father...

    OBI-WAN: Then why don't you listen to me?!

    ANAKIN: I am trying.


    Try not. Do, or do not; there is no try.


    Anakin continues to disagree with you about Obi-Wan...

    ANAKIN: Don't get me wrong... Obi-Wan is a great mentor, as
    wise as Master Yoda and as powerful as Master Windu. I am
    truly thankful to be his apprentice. Only... although I'm a
    Padawan learner, in some ways... a lot of ways... I'm ahead
    of him. I'm ready for the trials. I know I am! He knows it
    too. But he feels I'm too unpredictable... Other Jedi my
    age have gone through the trials and made it... I know I
    started my training late... but he won't let me move on.

    PADMÉ: That must be frustrating.

    ANAKIN: It's worse... he's overly critical! He never
    listens! He just doesn't understand. It's not fair!


    Hi Luke, need to go pick up some power converters much?

    Anakin says Obi-Wan is a great mentor. It's just that Anakin wants to move too fast. That's his only complaint about Obi-Wan - he simply will not let Anakin rush his training. Anakin has no patience and it's the entire reason why he has problems. He rushes into things without thinking. Even though all Obi-Wan does is teach Anakin to think it's Anakin who fails to think; Anakin fails to bridle his passions; Anakin fails to overcome the darkside.

    All a teacher can do is lead. A student MUST follow. Anakin refused.

    PADMÉ: Annie, are you just going to sit here and let him
    die?? He's your friend... your mentor...

    ANAKIN:
    He's like my father, but you heard Master Windu. He
    gave me strict orders to stay here.


    Anakin loves Obi-Wan and thinks of him as a father. You don't get that kind of relationship without serious care and devotion coming from the mentor.

    And notice how Anakin only steps in line after bad things happen to him?

    I could go on about how the rlationship matures and they eventually become more like brothers. That's a serious bond. That's family. A family Anakin betrayed.

    You'll notice the instruction and traini
  19. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    Agenda? "Dont get excited".

    "I have failed you Anakin, I have failed you"!

    "When I first knew him, your father was already a great pilot. But I was amazed how
    strongly the Force was with him. I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi. I thought that I could instruct him just as well as Yoda. I was wrong.

    The orignal script went on to say:

    "My pride has had terrible consequences for the galaxy".

    Spin that Mr Ewok.

    Agenda? Blah.
  20. EwokThatCried Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2003
    star 4
    Yes, Ben was far too lenient. Yoda would not have put up with Anakin's crap at all.
  21. DunkelVater Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 2, 2002
    star 1
    One thing that's become clear to me in interviews with GL is that he believes very strongly in the ability of individuals to make choices. This is not denying that things like losing one's mother, the general suspicion of the Jedi Council, and wonderboy syndrome did not have an effect on Anakin's psychology.

    Something I've noticed in watching all of the movies is that the dark side is all about allowing others to make choices for you. When Anakin decides to run off and try to save his mother, he tells Padme, "I'm sorry, I have no choice." And we all know that Vader's usual response to the Emperor's and Tarkin's requests is "as you wish." Allowing others to make one's decisions is akin to slavery, another theme throughout the movies.

    I feel that Anakin himself has got a big fat "victim complex." He is always blaming others for his problems and reacting to circumstances, rather than deciding for himself what he wants to do. Even when he is de-limbed and burned alive, he still blames Obi-wan for his fall, emphasized most directly with that "I HATE YOU!!" But again, all he had done was *react* when he saw Obi-wan step out of Padme's ship.

    The big movers in the series, like Obi-wan, Yoda, even Sidious, all had a plan, and while those plans could be modified, they were still thinking way ahead. Anakin *never* thinks ahead, he's always right in the moment making his bad decisions based on his emotions.

    I can't help but think that questions about whether or not Anakin is a good or bad person or selfish/greedy/victim of circumstances is irrelevant. I think that the true meaning of all this transcends that. That we as human beings are given the gift of being able to *choose* our actions. Most of the "light side" characters in the series have annunciated this at one point or other. Leia: "Han has to choose his own path--no one can pick it for him." While Luke is training on Dagobah and then senses pain in his friends, he wants to leave immediately. Yoda spells out the consequences of his decision for him...choose this way, and this will happen. Choose the other, and our chances are much better. He does not try to FORCE him to stay, it's up to him. And in ANH, Obi-wan tells Luke, "You must do what you think is right, of course." The point is that Luke had far better teachers, who encouraged him to make up his own mind, rather than blindly follow the will of others or just react. And that made him realize that Vader, too, still possessed the ability to choose, something even Yoda and Obi-wan couldn't see.

    Anakin reacts to others, and usually acts out of fear or greed. His whole life he has been following orders...Watto then the Jedi then Sidious. Luke finally overcomes this tendency in himself, because he realizes that his destiny is in his own hands, and no one else's. At the end of ROTJ, Luke finally awakens in his father the realization that he, too, has the ability to choose of his own free will.

  22. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    that's a great post, dunkel vater. i loved it very much. and i have nothing much to contribute to it. it was just very good.
  23. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9

    The bottom line is that Anakin has to control his emotions in order to achieve greatness. It's something that he fails to do. He fails the advice of Yoda, whom he went to in the first place.



    Using all the powers of the Force won't change the fact that you can't stop nature. Using all the powers of the Force will only result in...wanting more power. That's what Lucas is saying. Anakin doesn't get it. Being all powerful won't make things better. It'll make them worse.



    Slavery has nothing to do with it. What has to do with it is was how Anakin was raised and when he began his training. He was in a place where he didn't want to let go and because of that, he's stuck in the past. He stuck with the concept of letting go.



    Rules are there for a reason. Otherwise we'd be in a tree flinging crap at each other. :p

    Qui-gon taught Obi-wan the same way Dooku taught him and the way his Master taught him and so on. Luke is taught the same way and he turned out pretty okay.

    Anakin was speaking out of turn. They had a mandate and that was to safeguard Padme. Anything else is a violation of their mandate and subject to deep Bantha, both by the Council and the Senate. As the senses comment, it's probably true. Anakin's probably boasted before about his senses and then failed to sense something, that Obi-wan managed to. Anakin's being cocky. Obi-wan's reminding him that he's not nearly as good as he'd like to think he is. And it's true throughout AOTC.

    Shmi wasn't in danger until she was put in danger, by her own actions. Anakin's
  24. -maynard- Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2005
    star 3
    i guess it all come back to nature vs. nurture and destiny vs. choice

    most of the replies i've read in the last two pages reduce themselves to these arguments

    its something to keep in mind when you take an position in this debate and ask yourself which side you are taking in this larger than star wars debate that is involved in this thread, while keeping Lucas' intent in mind

    [face_peace]
  25. Falzoni Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2005
    lol me too, that has to be the most tragic death in the saga, seeing his face when he realised what was going on
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