Am I supposed to feel SORRY for him?!!

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by Widowlander, May 19, 2005.

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  1. DunkelVater Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 2, 2002
    star 1
    I think one of the interesting things about Star Wars is that it's NOT simply nature vs. nurture, destiny vs. choice. I think both sides of the argument are built into the movies rather symbiotically and run in parallel.

    Anakin, for example, is The Chosen One. That is the destiny part--he is DESTINED to destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force. That in itself is pretty deterministic.

    However, I think the other message is that, while destiny shapes the galaxy of possibilities we face each day, that it is also sometimes difficult to make one's destiny happen. That is where choice comes in--and it was not until Anakin realized he had a choice of whether or not to fulfil that destin that he finally suceeded. That is where free will comes in.

    Luke faced two possible destinies: to follow in his father's footsteps and become Darth Vader, Jr., or to choose his own path, which he ultimately does.
  2. DunkelVater Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 2, 2002
    star 1
    Thank you! Glad you liked it. :)
  3. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Exactly. The path is laid before you, but you alone must choose it. This is what the Skywalker women say to the Skywalker men.
  4. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    do you sometimes have this thing that you run your thoughts through your head again, sinister? i do that a lot. i think maybe you should try it with your last post of our argument just to see how utterly ridiculous it sounds. i tend to think you lack a little things called understanding of the human condition, but i'm not sure this fully covers it.

    and since i have sort of decided that this was a rather futile attempt to think that i could come in and use some really good arguments on someone and actually have a debate as a result, i'll just help you along on your long and stony path to enlightenment here.

    are you kidding? do you think that GL put this in as a mere distraction? (oh, but he's a slave! how cute!)
    have you ever been the possession of someone? have you? cos i don't think you have. do you realize how much freedom you have? does the phrase not being able to visit the places that you'd like mean anything to you? doesn't it amount to NO freedom?
    were you ever threatened to be blown to pieces if you didn't obey?
    have you ever considered that maybe anakin wasn't so bad off because he had his mum balancing things out? ever considered that maybe he puts so much faith in relationships because that was all he was ever allowed to have?
    do you know what freedom means, sinister? do you know that you could leave this thread, the entire board, this world, your fandom, anything, any minute without getting repercussions about it, simply because it's your freedom?

    *gasp* he actually ventured an opinion. *more gasping*
    do you realize what you are saying?
    how old are you, sinister? are you over twenty? i should think so.
    when did you start having opinions? when did you start getting them out into the public? when did you start questioning your teachers?
    and, consequently, when is one allowed to do it? when we are fifty? or maybe a little younger, say, fourty? and under what circumstances? when no one is listening? when we are asked about them?
    you'll speak when you're spoken to. is that it? were you brought up that way? cos i don't think you were. otherwise you wouldn't be here venturing your opinion whenever you see it fit. hell, i wasn't brought up that way. wouldn't be sitting here and spitting it in everyone's face either.

    do you even realize what you ask for? do you realize you ask for obedience?
    have we both seen the same movies?
    do you realize that obedience is a close second to causing most of anakin's problems? (the first would be fear and they are related anyway) do you realize that it is obedience that makes him kill dooku? do you realize that obedience makes him go out and wipe out the jedi order? it isn't his sheer lust for blood.
    do you realize that it is obedience which makes obi-wan, the g****m jedi poster boy, ask him to spy on the chancellor which is one big step towards eroding his trust in the jedi order?
    do you know that it is precisely the fear of the repercussions of what will happen which will cause anakin to ever obey? do you know that anakin brings his own son before the emperor because he must obey his master?
    have you ever wondered why obedience is a problem? it has no virtuous effect on anyone. well, unless you want to create a grand army of minions, of people who are afraid to speak their mind because of what might happen.
    obedience is anakin's problem, of course. he was a slave, if he didn't obey or pursued his own things, he might have been blown to bits.

    but of course, this has nothing to do with it.

    i tell you, it has EVERYTHING to do with it.
  5. mynameismyown Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2005
    star 3
    you should feel sorry for anakin since he was just a boy when he decided to become a jedi, not exactly the right age to determine what you are going to do for the rest of your life, and had alrady formed attachments which goes against the jedi code. you can really blame the jedi for allowing him to be trained when he was clearly not a good candidate for the jedi life. well you should really blame qui gon, yoda, and obi wan
  6. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    ^^I tend to agree. The Jedi order in the PT can be seen as just another level of control - especially for Anakin.

    Their mandate is help restore balance. That is what their job should be. The problem with the Jedi is that they became possessive of the Jedi Order and put their efforts into saving it.

    As Mace Windu said apon hearing about the identity of Sidious:

    "We must move quickly if the Jedi Order is to survive"

    Thats what is on their mind. They dont know how to bring balance and the Sith took advantage of the Jedi's flaws and complacency. the Jedi forgot that evil cannot simply be stamped out. Good and evil co-exist.

    The Jedi merely sit in their council, detached from society and the people. They concentated on protecting themselves and set the task of trying to wipe out the dark side instead of learning what it actually was. Because of that Palpatine slipped right through their fingers. So instead of being the concerned bringers of peace they could instead be seen as decadant and arrogant. If they are the forces of good - why dont they free the slaves on tatooine? The councils main reason for Qui Gon protecting Padme on Naboo was to find out about the sith -not stop the suffering.

    The simple fact is that the Jedi meddle in affairs that shouldnt really be anything to do with and they ignore the things that really matter.

    Yoda rejects Anakin - because he claims the boy is too old and that his future is clouded. Is the age and future problem a question of character, or control? Is Yoda merely concerned that the Jedi will not be able to mould Anakin into the Jedi they want him to be?

    Thats the problem here. Anakin is constantly restrained and he is told that if he attempts to break free then he will be killed (slavery), be expelled (in love with Padme or lose his power (if he breaks free of the dark side).

    If the Jedi fight for freedom then they should grant it to each other. By simply rejecting the dark side they end up leaving themselves open to it. Anakin does become a greedy person but the bad choices he makes are made because he has no room to move. He wants o be a jedi and be a good man but he wants to have a relationship with padme. Instead of being able to discuss this with his 'family' the jedi he has to hide it. This puts him on a path far worse than the one he would have been on had the jedi been more flexible and understanding.

    Anakin shouldnt have been banned from everything that made him human. He should have been taught how to live with these things. The Jedi were right in saying that the jedi shouldnt be possessive or have attachments. But they shouldnt be denied what life offers because it may or may not lead to that end.

    The true balance of the Force is a level playing field free of manipulation by any powerful leader, be it an Emperor or a Muppet. The nature of the Force is to penetrate all things - Dark and otherwise, Sith and Jedi, profane and sacred alike.
  7. jedibri Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 2000
    star 4
    I don't think your supposed to feel sorry for him. I think it's supposed to make you think about what you would do if you were in his place.

    If you knew someone you love was going to die and you could save them. Would you? Would you sell your soul to the Devil?

    It's easy to say no. But think about this in New Orleans when the people were looting did you think it was wrong? Wrong they were trying to get dry clothing for their families. Or food for their families? Yes I think a t.v. is a bit much. But, you get my drift.
  8. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    I dont think we can connect Anakins choices to those people in New Orleans who tried to save their loved ones. Anakin was being greedy and was doing it for himself.

    I feel sorry for Anakin because I see it as a chain of events that led him to make those terrible choices in ROTS. He started off as a compassionate, giving and selfless child on Tatooine. And ended up a greedy, hateful and selfish Sith on Mustafa.

    Something went wrong along the way and I dont blame Anakin for everything. He failed his loved ones, the Jedi and himself and those people failed him.
  9. RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2003
    star 6
    Not to give the same quotes over and over, but Lucas clearly wants people to feel some amount of sympathy for Anakin:


    "You learn that Darth Vader isn?t this monster. He?s a pathetic individual who made a pact with the Devil and lost. And he?s trapped. He?s a sad, pathetic character, not a big evil monster. I mean, he?s a monster in that he?s turned to the Dark Side and he?s serving a bad master and he?s into power and he?s lost a lot of his humanity. In that way, he?s a monster, but beneath that, as Luke says in Return of the Jedi, early on, ?I know there?s still good in you, I can sense it.? Only through the love of his children and the compassion of his children, who believe in him, even though he?s a monster, does he redeem himself."

    --George Lucas, quoted in J. Windolf, ?Star Wars: The Last Battle,? Vanity Fair, 2005


    It's about a good boy who was loving and had exceptional powers, but how that eventually corrupted him and how he confused possessive love with compassionate love. That happens in Episode II: Regardless of how his mother died, Jedis are not supposed to take vengeance. And that's why they say he was too old to be a Jedi, because he made his emotional connections. His undoing is that he loveth too much."

    --George Lucas, Rolling Stone Magazine Interview; June 2005.


    "If good and evil are mixed things become blurred - there is nothing between good and evil, everything is grey. In each of us we to have balance these emotions, and in the Star Wars saga the most important point is balance, balance between everything. It is dangerous to lose this."

    --George Lucas, Time Magazine article, 2002


    "There's always this good in you. And the good part is saying 'what am I doing?'. Then the bad part kicks in and says 'I'm doing this for Padme, I'm doing this for the galaxy and so we can have a better life'. But the good part is always saying 'WHAT AM I DOING?!"

    --George Lucas to Hayden Christensen, Hyperspace Webdoc.


    ?Anakin/Darth does what he does because he believes he?s doing it for the good of the universe.?

    --Hayden Christensen, GQ Magazine


    "If you start with Star Wars, then Vader's just the villain, and that's it. But you don't realize that he's a human being, that he's got problems you don't realize that he could have been saved, that he was tricked and can be resurrected."

    --George Lucas



    And darth_frared, please refrain from making personal comments about other users. Discuss the films/ideas, not the fans.
  10. jedibri Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 2000
    star 4
    Sure you can. The people in New Orleans were getting food for themselves as well as their families. Alot of what people do there is a selfish reason. Think about that.
  11. Jedi-Queen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2005
    star 4
    I would rather distinguish b/w sympathy and pity;
    I can't sympathize b/c I would in no way share his feelings
    therefore be prompted to do what he did, but I do feel pity for
    him in the form of regret for the man/Jedi he could have or even
    should have become.
  12. lovelucas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2004
    star 4
    thank you rebel scum -
    always good to see george's (the maker) direct thoughts and intentions. can't be mentioned enough.
  13. Sidious_T Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2004
    star 4
    ^^^^

    Oh yes it can.........
  14. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Do you know that you need to calm down? :p

    I'm not saying that slavery wasn't ever a theme or an issue. I'm just saying that it wasn't the reason why he turned. The slavery issue just shows that he went from one form, which was his years on Tatooine to his time as a Sith Lord. He was never a slave during his time in the Jedi Order. He only thinks that after he has joined the Sith. But the slavery issue is never really brought up much, beyond TPM. It is apparent when he is serving Palpatine, but not really as a Jedi.

    Relationships weren't a problem. It was his inability to let go and accept that there are somethings that are beyond even his abilities. Because of his big ego as a boy, being the only one who could do this and do that, that is why he felt that he was more important than everyone else. He could fix things. But he couldn't fix his mother's death. That is what drives him to the Dark Side.


    I think you need to step back and take a break. You're getting way too personal here.

    Anakin wasn't venturing an opinion, he was talking out of his ass. He was making promises that he couldn't keep. He was showing off to Padme. He might have been right, but that was not the time or place to be discussing. Obi-wan knew this and why he was taken back by Anakin's brazen attitude. He could sense the motivation behind what he was saying and that was a dangerous thing. His attitude was dangerous.

  15. mynameismyown Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2005
    star 3
    i agree lucas didnt intend for the jedi to seem like jerks but thats how they seem espescially in ep1.
  16. AnnLouise Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 10, 2005
    star 3
    I think that for me, it's possible to have both sympathy for the choice Anakin felt he had to make, and total contempt for the path he chose to follow.

    He chose hate over love.
    Death over life.
    And used the suffering and deaths of others to acheive his own desires, no matter how much "justication" his line of reasoning is accorded.
  17. Knight_Mical Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 25, 2004
    star 1
    Thats the problem here. Anakin is constantly restrained and he is told that if he attempts to break free then he will be killed (slavery), be expelled (in love with Padme or lose his power (if he breaks free of the dark side).

    What movie were you watching. Anakin is never threatened with death or slavery if he doesn't conform to the Jedi ways. In fact he's never restrained, he's a loose canon and pretty much does what he wants when he wants and should be expelled for the terrible things he does, as a Jedi. He;s never worthy to be a Jedi because he's not smart enough, compassionate enough or in control enough and he knows it and says it.

    If the Jedi fight for freedom then they should grant it to each other. By simply rejecting the dark side they end up leaving themselves open to it. Anakin does become a greedy person but the bad choices he makes are made because he has no room to move. He wants o be a jedi and be a good man but he wants to have a relationship with padme. Instead of being able to discuss this with his 'family' the jedi he has to hide it. This puts him on a path far worse than the one he would have been on had the jedi been more flexible and understanding.

    Oh brother. Poor Anakin can't marry Padme because he'll be kicked out of this order that you claim has so mistreated him. Yet we know he can leave anytime he wants but is not man enough to make tough choices. He's a spoiled brat who thinks, like you it seems, that just because you want something you can have it. The world and obviously the GFFA doesnt work like that. If he wants to be a Jedi he must abide by their rules, if he doesnt he can leave and marry Padme and kill all the children he wants until Obi-Wan catches up with him of course.

    Anakin shouldnt have been banned from everything that made him human. He should have been taught how to live with these things. The Jedi were right in saying that the jedi shouldnt be possessive or have attachments. But they shouldnt be denied what life offers because it may or may not lead to that end.

    Human? I think Obi-Wan and Yoda and even Mace are more human and compassionate than Anakin ever showed himself to be. Being human isn't about giving into every whim, and emotion that occurs to you to feel. It's being a loving caring person, who cares about other people more than you care about yourself. And he is taught to be compassion, he just never applies those lessons to himself. He believes he is above the rules of morality that apply to Jedi and just common decency.

    You are missing the point of why the Jedi dont allow attachments, because it leads to possessiveness and possibly darkness as is proven by Anakin himself. No prolly not every Jedi would be as screwed up as Anakin if they fell in love, but Anakin is that screwed up and shows himself constantly to be and certainly that he cant handle it. He is given the freedom to make a choice, its not the Jedi's fault that he decides to be cowardly and selfish and destroy those things he wants instead of letting one of his dreams go. He could have been a jedi if he gave up Padme and he could have had Padme if he gave up being a Jedi. Hello, those are the kind of choices we all make on a daily basis. I can't screw my assistant because my wife will leave me kind of choices. Sure I can lie like Anakin and not tell my wife about the secretary, but I know one day she'll find out and there will be hell to pay.

    The true balance of the Force is a level playing field free of manipulation by any powerful leader, be it an Emperor or a Muppet. The nature of the Force is to penetrate all things - Dark and otherwise, Sith and Jedi, profane and sacred alike.

    Dribble and more dribble. The Jedi are charged with protecting the republic, not Anakin. Their responsibility is to the democracy not to Anakin. He's the traitor because he uses Sidious to help himself and agrees to spy on the Jedi for his own selfish reasons. The Jedi ask Anakin to do his job and inform them if Palpatine who has manipulated the senate and broken laws
  18. ceridwen1977 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 7, 2005
    star 3
    I am sure that as always the answer lies somewhere in the middle ground. Anakin was selfish and possessive in some ways yes but how could a good, unselfish caring little boy become like that? And there are issues on both sides as are argued eloquently here...

    My take on it (nothing new) is that since Obi-wan had never taught anyone before both he and Anakin were in over their heads. And how much courage does it take to admit that? Both Ani and Obi to me seem quite similar in the fact they are stubborn and don't ask for help, or admit to each other that there were problems. Both of them talk about each other to other people but never 'together'... There are attempts made but it always seemes rushed... So these problems are hidden away and fester underneath the surface until the big explosion of the duel which is I guess is on one level at least for me a symbol for a resolving of all their frustrations with each other.

    It's not about apportioning the ultimate blame on someone or something its about seeing the many flaws on both sides... both Anakin and the Jedi were in the wrong to a certain extent and George Lucas does not try to hide that to his credit.

    And then you throw Palpatine and Padme in the mix, the fact that there is a war on and what might have been small issues become huge ones. You know the traits that Anakin demonstrates are no way completely bad but because of the circumstances and the engineering of Palpatine they became more than weakenesses - he was his own worst enemy and that for me is the tragedy because how do you fix that?
  19. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    What movie were you watching. Anakin is never threatened with death or slavery if he doesn't conform to the Jedi ways.

    Nice start.

    I was referring to his whole life.

    Slave int TPM - if he leaves he will be BLOWN UP!

    Jedi - cant live the life he wants or he will be expelled.

    Sith - cant take on the emperor as it will lead to his own death.
  20. RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2003
    star 6
    Exactly.

    Sympathy and pity in this case are similiar, there's a subtle semantic difference. And remember that sympathy is not the same as empathy. Empathy implies that you have been through similiar circumstances yourself and understand on a more literal level. Lucas clearly wants us to feel some amount of sympathy and pity for his fallen hero, and doesn't really justify his reasons for turning. We're meant to have mixed emotions.
  21. Obi_Frans Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2003
    star 4
    But surely you see the vast difference Shaitan?

    Leave Watto or Palpy = horrible death

    Leave Jedi = Everything Anakin wants beside being a Jedi

    That's not nearly in the same league as the forms of slavery the Sith and Watto had over him. The only thing that means is that Anakin won't be a Jedi; and since a lot of people seem to think he doesn't want to be one, what's the harm with that?

    I think that's one of the most overlooked points in the prequels - Anakins desire to be a good Jedi. Realistically, that's where the entire conflict begins. Because as he put it, he wants more - and he knows he shouldn't. That's the ultimate difference between the 3, Anakin never wanted to be a slave or a Sith - but he damn sure wanted to be a Jedi. He loved being freed from Watto, he desperately wanted to be freed of Palpatine; but he damn sure hated having to go against Mace, having to leave and betray the Jedi Order.

    That's also why i don't like the whole popular "slave" analogy with the Jedi thrown in there, because even Anakin doesn't really believe that. That's reinforced (no pun intended :p ) by the fact that he's a Jedi at the end of it all (Return of the.............Jedi :p ), complete with the robes and a Jedi Temple standing strong in the midst of celebration.

    - O_F
  22. jvberggren Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2004
    star 4
    i don't like the slave analogy being displaced on anakin's life in the jedi order.
    it's an agreement -one which he could choose to break if he wanted.

    but since anakin wants the best of both worlds, his ambition is what turns this life into something similar to slave's life. the order or the jedi didn't do that!

    if we go down this road, then we could just as easily say that being alive is a form of slavery, since you have to follow the rules and laws of the world you live in.

    the important thing here is that there is a choice.
    so if anakin's life as a jedi became similar to that of a slave's life, then it's because anakin made it that way -the jedi didn't do that!
  23. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    But surely you see the vast difference Shaitan?

    Leave Watto or Palpy = horrible death

    Leave Jedi = Everything Anakin wants beside being a Jedi

    That's not nearly in the same league as the forms of slavery the Sith and Watto had over him. The only thing that means is that Anakin won't be a Jedi; and since a lot of people seem to think he doesn't want to be one, what's the harm with that?

    I think that's one of the most overlooked points in the prequels - Anakins desire to be a good Jedi. Realistically, that's where the entire conflict begins. Because as he put it, he wants more - and he knows he shouldn't. That's the ultimate difference between the 3, Anakin never wanted to be a slave or a Sith - but he damn sure wanted to be a Jedi. He loved being freed from Watto, he desperately wanted to be freed of Palpatine; but he damn sure hated having to go against Mace, having to leave and betray the Jedi Order.

    That's also why i don't like the whole popular "slave" analogy with the Jedi thrown in there, because even Anakin doesn't really believe that. That's reinforced (no pun intended ) by the fact that he's a Jedi at the end of it all (Return of the.............Jedi ), complete with the robes and a Jedi Temple standing strong in the midst of celebration.


    Oh, I agree. But my point is a metaphorical one and it relates to the kind of person Anakin is. I just meant that Anakin cant do what he wants without losing something he loves - and for someone who grew up with attachment thats very difficult. Anakin's greed only develops because of the unusual positions he was in. He wanted the power to break free with his mother from slavery without dying. He wanted to love Padme without being expelled. He then wanted to kill Sidious without dying. The ironic thing is, with every choice Anakin made he was to a certain extent letting go of certain things:

    He chose to become a Jedi and left his mother.

    He chose to love Padme and had to let go of the jedi.

    He chose to kill Sidious and died because of it.

    Its not the same for anyone else. Im not justifying Anakins choices - he made terrible ones based on greed. But Anakin is a unique case and he should have been handled with more care and attention. The jedi rectified this with Luke.

  24. Obi_Frans Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2003
    star 4
    Not really, Luke wanted to save his friends but he also wanted to complete his training; it's the same dilemma Anakin had, and the Jedi still have the same attitude about it. And they're right, nobody can have it both ways; the difference between people is that some learn and understand this, and some refuse and reject it. Luke and Anakin both learn this at the end of the saga, and they both become true Jedi because of it.

    Anakin isn't the only person, or Jedi, who has to make sacrifices; that's exactly what he doesn't understand until he sees Luke sacrificing everything in front of him. That's exactly why he didn't understand what Obi-Wan did on the death star ("Don't let yourself be destroyed as Obi-Wan did"). That's exactly why he couldn't keep up with the Jedi, why he felt alienated and different. He's not unique in this instance, he only thinks he is.

    - O_F
  25. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    Not really, Luke wanted to save his friends but he also wanted to complete his training; it's the same dilemma Anakin had, and the Jedi still have the same attitude about it. And they're right, nobody can have it both ways; the difference between people is that some learn and understand this, and some refuse and reject it. Luke and Anakin both learn this at the end of the saga, and they both become true Jedi because of it.

    But the Jedi know of Lukes attachments and are able to give him better advice. They dont ban luke from having his relationships - thye just train him how to deal with his darker emotions. The main change with the jedi is the way in which they make choices - they listen to the will of the force more in the OT. This reflects in the way they teach Luke. Had qui gon been alive he could have handled Anakin far better. Basically - they make better choices.

    Anakin isn't the only person, or Jedi, who has to make sacrifices; that's exactly what he doesn't understand until he sees Luke sacrificing everything in front of him. That's why he didn't understand what Obi-Wan did on the death star ("Don't let yourself be destroyed as Obi-Wan did"). He's not unique in this instance.

    Again, I agree with that. What im saying is that there werent any jedi who formed attachments to the level Anakin did. All jedi are trained from birth and are taught to let go. Anakin wasnt yet he still carried the same expectations as the rest of the jedi.
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