Am I supposed to feel SORRY for him?!!

sinister: Do you know that you need to calm down?
well, i sure won't achieve buddhahood through this debate.

I think you need to step back and take a break. You're getting way too personal here.
yes, thank you.

anakin went from one form of threat (death) to another (being expelled from the order) to another (more death). it still amounts to no freedom. a threat is a threat. if all obi-wan does is threaten him in order to follow the rules then there is something wrong with a) obi-wan's teachings b) the rules.

But the slavery issue is never really brought up much, beyond TPM. It is apparent when he is serving Palpatine, but not really as a Jedi.

you haven't read what i posted. not being able to visit the people that you'd like or the places... or whatever, really amounts to no freedom. just because no one says to him, but anakin aren't you a slave, doesn't mean he has freedom. has he the freedom to see his mom? no. would he like to? yes. simple.

Relationships weren't a problem.
a thousand times over: it's a problem of definition. he can **** her all day long, apparently, but once he develops a romantic relationship, he's gonna be expelled. nonsense. had he not married her, it would still be an attachment but not so strong, or what? you don't make sense.

and anyway, i'm fed up by bringing everything down to attachment or no attachment. the guy cannot even talk about his feelings, he cannot talk about his dreams, he cannot talk about anything much at all, because it's against the code, it's against the law of the frickin universe or whatever.

my point is still there: he has faith in relationships. his mom taught him everything there is to know about relationships. he loved her. he doesn't mean to leave her alone. he wants to free her. surely, love is a very evil force.

he couldn't fix his mother's death. That is what drives him to the Dark Side.
nice try, sinister.
i thought it was greed. or wasn't it selfishness? or maybe the fact that he was'nt made a master? or maybe the fact that the jedi never offered an ounce of understanding? or what was it, sinister?

Anakin wasn't venturing an opinion, he was talking out of his ass. He was making promises that he couldn't keep. He was showing off to Padme.

evil, huh?
showing off to padme.

He might have been right, but that was not the time or place to be discussing. Obi-wan knew this and why he was taken back by Anakin's brazen attitude.

look, obi-wan is grumpy because anakin is making promises. obi-wan's reaction to it is still off and the fact that he says 'we will not go through this exercise again' shows that there has been a routine which they have gone through many times and it's not a healthy routine, both are frustrated. so, as a teacher, you ask yourself, why does this happen, instead of lashing out. but of course obi-wan gets a heart attack. very mature.
and still: anakin is twenty years old. when is he supposed to question things, sinister? when is the time and the moment right?

He could sense the motivation behind what he was saying and that was a dangerous thing. His attitude was dangerous.

obi-wan's attitude is dangerous. he uses threats. (no no not threads) and what's wrong with the motivation to find the one behind the assassination attempt? they were gonna do that anyway.

obi-wan is continually grumpy, he exerts authority which he claims he has simply because he is a master. he talks down to his student, he doesn't listen, he is more concerned with looking authoritative and strict than actually solving the problem.
he humiliates anakin for that very reason. he does not make him look good in front of padme.

the jedi don't teach, they deliver lectures. lectures that have been this way since time immemorial. teaching means that you tailor a strategy to a lesson. in other words, you have a lesson, shut up when i talk, i can't have you contradict me in front of someone else, and then you tailor a method to this. say, threats of expulsion

I'm with Darth Frared on this one. Anakin was treated badly. Ok, he made mistakes - bad ones. But if I were in his shoes Obi wan wouldnt be wearing a beard in AOTC - he would be eating it.

MS

Anakin was treated exactly how he deserved to be treated.

I agree 100 %.

I would like to lend my support to the Jedi were not as wonderful in their treatment of Anakin side of the debate... not the least because Obi-wan blamed himself for his own failings towards Anakin and I believe Obi-wan to be an honest man

Shaitan

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How was Anakin treated badly? Please explain that to me. Did he not receive love from Padme and look how she turns out. Did he not receive love from Kenobi, look what happens to him-his order gets completely wiped out, Padme tries in vain to give love and she get the life choked out of her and she dies of a broken heart. What is this nonsense about Anakin being treated badly. Also he makes more than just bad mistakes, these mistakes had grave consequences on a lot of people's lives including his wife and children since they have to rectify his mistakes. Anakin got a chance to come back to the light...his loved ones and his collegues did not get that opportunity to see their glorious moments./>/>

Amen. />/>

How was Anakin treated badly? Please explain that to me. Did he not receive love from Padme and look how she turns out. Did he not receive love from Kenobi, look what happens to him-his order gets completely wiped out, Padme tries in vain to give love and she get the life choked out of her and she dies of a broken heart. What is this nonsense about Anakin being treated badly. Also he makes more than just bad mistakes, these mistakes had grave consequences on a lot of people's lives including his wife and children since they have to rectify his mistakes. Anakin got a chance to come back to the light...his loved ones and his collegues did not get that opportunity to see their glorious moments.

As I clearly stated - Anakin amde bad choices. By that I meant he caused a lot of pain and suffering. If we're going to be pedantic replace 'bad' with 'terrible'.

Im not saying Anakin didnt make mistakes - of course he did. But im also saying the Jedi failed Anakin. Obi Wan was a bad teacher and wasnt up to training the chosen one - especially someone like Anakin who had such a complex background. By treating him like the rest of the jedi they put too much expectation on him. But he wasnt like the other jedi - he had a backgrounf - he had strong attachments after leaving his mother.

And before you say there isnt any evidence of this failure I suggest you look at these things:

Shmi:

"He gives with no thought of reward"

"But you can't stop the change, anymore than you can stop the suns from setting"

These quotes show that Anakin was selfless and compassionate as a child and that his mother helped him form healthy relationships. Come ROTS all that is gone. Somewhere along the line someone failed Anakin and left him exposed to the Dark Side.

Obi Wan:

"I have failed you Anakin, I have failed you"

"I thought I could instruct him as well as Yoda. I was wrong".

This clearly shows that Kenobi takes the blame for some of Anakins mistakes. he see's that had he been a better teacher Anakin may not have made some of the choices he did.

In the orignal shooting script for ROTJ, Kenobi went onto say:

"My pride has had terrible consequences for the galaxy".

Its all there.

Anakin made terrible choices. The Jedi failed Anakin. The Sith took advantage.

Obi-Wan takes blame for Anakin because Obi-Wan is a better person than Anakin. It's like when parents blame themselves for their kid's behavior even though they were good parents and the kid was just an uber ****************-***.

Anakin betrayed Obi-Wan. Anakin betrayed Padme.

Obi-Wan takes blame for Anakin because Obi-Wan is a better person than Anakin. It's like a parents who blame themselves for their kids behavior even though they were good parents.

SO had Qui Gon taught Anakin you think he would have turned out the way he did? Kenobi wasnt ready to have an apprentice - he was only made a knight in TPM - how on earth could he be prepared to train someone like Anakin?

Anakin betrayed Obi-Wan. Anakin betrayed Padme.

Im not saying he didnt.

But then if Obi-wan is pointlessly blaming himself for Anakin's failure then that would not be the way of the Jedi. You notice that Yoda does not blame himself for Dooku's fall to the dark side (although granted Dooku is much older so I don't blame anyone for nit picking about that). For one thing we know and love about the Jedi is that they are not about to waste any emotions because they teach themselves to be above them and to accept that things are supposed to happen.

So if Obi-wan did not really think he had some part to play in Anakin's fall he would not have said it since a Jedi is trained to let go of emotions... and if a Jedi is feeling an emotion like guilt (which I suppose is the closest we can put Obi-wan's feelings to words) he must really mean it. So Obi-wan takes the blame for Anakin's fall because he knows he was a part of it.

So if Obi-wan did not really think he had some part to play in Anakin's fall he would not have said it since a Jedi is trained to let go of emotions... and if a Jedi is feeling an emotion like guilt (which I suppose is the closest we can put Obi-wan's feelings to words) he must really mean it. So Obi-wan takes the blame for Anakin's fall because he knows he was a part of it.

Amen

ANAKIN: (continuing) Master, I've disappointed you. I have not been very appreciative of your training . . . I have been arrogant and I apologize . . . I've just been so frustrated with the Council. Your friendship means everything to me.

Obi-Wan didn't fail Anakin, Anakin failed Anakin. Obi-Wan may believe he failed Anakin, and he's right in his own way; but Anakin was a grown man who knew right from wrong when he made those choices, he knows the Jedi Way - he just can't live it. That alone proves that not everything the Jedi or Obi-Wan did went wrong. Again, the Jedi didn't fail Anakin - Anakin failed Anakin. He couldn't even live up to his own standards, he couldn't live up to his mothers standards, he couldn't live up to Padme's standards; Why blame the Jedi because he can't live up to theirs?

And from that same movie, "I don't want things to change".

If anything, Qui-Gon failed Anakin. Instead of focusing on the present too much, he should've seen that Anakin simply wasn't ready to leave Shmi. From the moment he leaves his mother to the end of RotJ, he has the "I don't want things to change attitude"; that isn't born when he becomes a Jedi, that was born before he ever saw Coruscant. We saw it happen right in front of us.

Kenobi taking the blame doesn't mean he is to blame; that's just what he feels, he doesn't even know what went on in Anakins mind because Anakin hid it from him. He doesn't have the full scope of what happened, only we do. He's also the one who didn't think Anakin was ready for his own assignment in AotC; and we know he was right, does he? He's also the one who put his full trust in Anakin in RotS, and he was wrong. He's also the one who says Anakin never let him down, and we know he did. He's also the one who told Yoda Luke would finish his training, and he turned out to be half-wrong etc etc.

I'm not saying the Jedi were infallibly flawless angels of light who could do no wrong and whose poodoo didn't smell; i'm saying they don't deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence as the Sith or Watto when it comes to bad influences on Anakin. They're the positive ones in the story, their way would've saved Anakin, their way WILL save Anakin. There's a difference between laying blame on individuals (Palpatine, Qui-Gon, Yoda, Obi) and laying blame on an entire Order.

- O_F

Obi-Frans Wrote

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Agreed,also what does Kenobi say in the Clone Wars Cartoon "Dont fail me no dont fail yourself."/>/>

ANAKIN: (continuing) Master, I've disappointed you. I have not been very appreciative of your training . . . I have been arrogant and I apologize . . . I've just been so frustrated with the Council. Your friendship means everything to me.

Obi-Wan didn't fail Anakin, Anakin failed Anakin. Obi-Wan may believe he failed Anakin, and he's right in his own way; but Anakin was a grown man who knew right from wrong when he made those choices, he knows the Jedi Way - he just can't live it. That alone proves that not everything the Jedi or Obi-Wan did went wrong. Again, the Jedi didn't fail Anakin - Anakin failed Anakin. He couldn't live up to his own standards.

Im not denying Anakin made mistake. im not denying that he was greedy and indulgent. But im not gonna say that the jedi are free from blame. He was their student. they didnt handle him properly.

The continuation of that piece of dialogue is very interesting too. Obi Wan acts as a good friend - not a teacher.

And from that same movie, "I don't want things to change".

and after that she says her line.

If anything, Qui-Gon failed Anakin. Instead of focusing on the present too much, he should've seen that Anakin simply wasn't ready to leave Shmi. From the moment he leaves his mother to the end of RotJ, he has the "I don't want things to change attitude"; that doesn't appear when he becomes a Jedi, that started before he ever saw Coruscant.

But he did want things to change. He didnt want to be a slave did he? he just didnt want to leave his mother. Whether qui gon did the right thing or not is for another thread. The key thing to rememeber is that Anakin went through a very hard thing. But at that time he was fully compassionate and selfless but wasnt devoid of natural feelings - feelings that the jedi link to the dark side. But he is still treated like every other jedi and that doesnt wokr for anakin - its like filling a car with the wrong petrol.

Kenobi taking the blame doesn't mean he is to blame; that's just what he feels, he doesn't even know what went on in Anakins mind because Anakin hid it from him. He doesn't have the full scope of what happened, only we do.

I disagree. Obi Wan meant it and he knew it. He was too proud. He didnt teach Anakin how to think. he didnt teach Anakin how to overcome the dark side.

He acts like both, friend: You are strong and wise, Anakin, and I am very proud of you. I have trained you since you were a small boy. I have taught you everything I know. And you have become a far greater Jedi than I could ever hope to be, and you have saved my life more times than I can remember

Mentor: But be patient, Anakin. It won't be long before the Council makes you a Jedi Master.

I also think it's funny that when Obi-Wan acts like a teacher, he's blamed for being too cold and distant; for alienating Anakin. And when he acts like a friend, he's blamed for not being a good mentor; for acting on what Anakin wants instead of what he needs. I'm not saying you're doing this; but a lot of people are, it seems like the Jedi just can't win no matter what they do. Give Anakin a slap on the backside: they're arrogant selfish assholes. Give Anakin praise: they're blind bats.

And he doesn't learn it. As is proven by the following episodes

He wants things to change for the better; that's not the same thing. He's not willing to accept change if he's slighted, but he's willing to accept it as long as he gets what he wants. There's a difference.

I never said he didn't mean it.

Edited my other post

- O_F

"i agree lucas didnt intend for the jedi to seem like jerks but thats how they seem espescially in ep1."

Seem to you. Not my opinion at all.

Poor Anakin, he had to follow the Jedi ways and not his own
[emotionally unbalanced] will.
Was he supposed to be exempt from the Jedi code and be allowed
to have his cake and eat it too?
It would be like a monk joining a monastery and then running
out to celebrate by hiring a hooker lol.

You want to join the order, you follow the path. If you can't,
find your own path elsewhere. Don't whine and expect everyone
esle to bend the rules and cut the path just to suit you.

Actually, Anakin was never banned from having relationships. He was just forbidden to marry Padme. He's allowed to visit with her. He's allowed to visit with Palpatine. Obi-wan's friends with Dextter Jester. Qui-gon, more or less, becomes friends with Jar Jar Binks. Luke isn't interested in marrying Leia in TESB, which is fine as it is. But he's okay to have a friendship with Han Solo, Leia Organa, Chewbacca, Biggs Darklighter, Wedge Antilles and Lando Calrissian. But the similarity between the Skywalker men is that they develop an attachment in the relationships that they forge. Worse, both men feel that they can fight nature or destiny. Anakin wants to stop Padme from dying, but it is his quest to save her from death, that kills her and damns him. It is Luke's desire to protect Leia and keep his friends from dying for the cause of freedom, that nearly damns him.

The advice they give Luke is similar to Anakin's. And both times, it fails to sink in initally. It takes seeing the similarities between himself and his father, for Luke to get it. Both men are reflections of each other and in seeing each other, they realize their mistakes.

The sacrifices of a Jedi, which Qui-gon warned there would be and Obi-wan explained, is that you have a duty. You can't go gallavanting around. You must go where you are needed. As to visit the people he wants to, it is a by-product of having a sacred duty. Being with his mother isn't going to help or change anything. He still had an attachment to her. And he still would've done exactly what he did. Besides, he doesn't have the time as he's got a job to do.

He has freedom. He could choose to leave the Order anytime he wanted. He didn't want to because he wanted to be a Jedi. You can't have it both ways.

He could have a friendship with her. He could have a physical relationship with her. He just could not get married, which isn't so bad since so many don't get married, yet are happy without marriage. He could not cling to her the way he did. He had to be willing to let her go when the time came for it. He had to put the needs of others ahead of himself.

He can talk about his feelings, which he does with Obi-wan and Yoda. They both give advice to him to ease his mind and try to prevent him from going down the dark path. Anakin has talked to Obi-wan about his dreams, as we see in AOTC. That wasn't the first time they talked about it. They just didn't know that they were connected to a vision of what was going on at the moment. Anakin only became concerned with the last vision that he had. Before that, he was just unnerved by what he was se

Thats fair enough Jedi Queen. But the jedi decided to train Anakin. They decided to take him on despite his background. He is their responsibility. They failed him.

Look at the Jedi like a family.

A family has 6 kids. Five of the kids are all healthy and 'normal'. The other child is blind.

Its no good for that family having one set of rules or guidlines for all the kids. For example they could say that if there is a fire in the house then the kids must go straight to the garden. For 5 of the kids thats pretty simple. But for the blind kid its very hard. He cant see where he's/she's going. Instead the family must help that child learn how to get to the garden through other techniques. If all they did was say - "go to the garden", then the child would be dead. The child isnt being favoured above the other kids, nor is he or she above the rules. But he or she is able to find his/her way to the same place as the other kids but only because he/she was being given more help and different advice.

So with Anakin he wasnt like the other Jedi. He had strong attachments and a difficult background. The Jedi should have understood this difference and trained him differently. Then Anakin could develop into a proper Jedi - able to let go and overcome the darkside. He would be where the other Jedi are - he just needed another route to get there.

Instead, he was stuck in a burning house (dark side) yet wasnt told how to escape (proper training).

I second that, Ceridwen!!!!

Anakin Skywalker was raised as a mistreated child. He was a slave, his mother was a slave, both of them had to fear for their lives if they didn't obey. And if you go with the Novel and what McDiarmid stated on a Hyperspace Interview, he was badly beaten and mistreated by Watto.

If you've read any psychological literature on mistreated children, and I encourage everyone to do so, you know what the results are. The likelihood of them becoming murderors, child abusers or other criminals is astronomically higher than with other people. Hitler, btw., was a badly mistreated child also. Coincidence?

Anakin came to the Jedi training with tons of emotional baggage. Basically, he was a case for an extended psychotherapy. Problems of that magnitude aren't solved by simply telling the person "let go of your attachments" and other emotional problems. They require extensive and individually designed treatment. In what is shown about the Jedi training him, I don't see any of it.

Actually, Anakin was never banned from having relationships. He was just forbidden to marry Padme. He's allowed to visit with her. He's allowed to visit with Palpatine. Obi-wan's friends with Dextter Jester. Qui-gon, more or less, becomes friends with Jar Jar Binks. Luke isn't interested in marrying Leia in TESB, which is fine as it is. But he's okay to have a friendship with Han Solo, Leia Organa, Chewbacca, Biggs Darklighter, Wedge Antilles and Lando Calrissian. But the similarity between the Skywalker men is that they develop an attachment in the relationships that they forge. Worse, both men feel that they can fight nature or destiny. Anakin wants to stop Padme from dying, but it is his quest to save her from death, that kills her and damns him. It is Luke's desire to protect Leia and keep his friends from dying for the cause of freedom, that nearly damns him.

I understand that Sinsiter. i was referring to the fact that both Luke and Anakin had formed attachments. If the jedi knew the extent of Anakins feelings for padme (marriage aside) they would have stopped it. They would have cut off all routes to the dark side. But with Luke they kept training him. They knew those attachments existed but believed that Luke could work through it. They ensured that he was still given the right training that worked for him and then believed in him - put faith in the force.

I dont buy the idea that the Jedi were allowed to screw around. That makes no sense to me. You can have attachments to people without having a marriage certificate to prove it. So, for me Anakin believed that he couldnt love Padme and be honest with the jedi. He therefore had to face the dark side alone. Luke could be honest with the jedi and because of that they were always with him.

They should've dumped his baggage when he got there (at Jedi Temple)

Anakin never did good? Okay....lets start with TPM:

In TPM Anakin did something similar to what you mention about him stopping and helping a homeless kid. In TPM Anakin offered Qui-Gon and Padme to stay in their house because the storm was coming. He also offered to risk his life to race in a podrace to gather up parts for a ship to leave the planet. And he was doing this FOR THEM! Not for himself because at this time, he didn't know that he would later be on this ship and leaving the planet. He just thought that he would win the race, get their parts...and watch them depart the planet and probably will never see them again.

I don't know what he did good in AOTC but lets goto ROTS. At the beginning of the film he showed courage. Remember when the Clone Pilots was being killed? It was him NOT Obi-Wan that wanted to go back and help them out. He was going to actually turn around, risk his life to help out some clones who really doesn't have a life of his own. It was only when Obi told him to focus on the mission at hand when he decided not to turn. He also saved Obi from the Vulture Droids, he also saved Obi-Wan's life AND Palpatine's life on the Invisible hand, AND crash landed the ship.

Also the Padme/Anakin love story in AOTC was believeable. Just because it isn't like Titanic doesn't mean it isn't believeable. The Anakin/Padme love story is supposed to resemble forbidden love. It also shows love at first sight as they first saw each other in TPM. Once they meet up again in AOTC, Anakin still holds this love for Padme but Padme kinda lost it since shes been away from him for 10 years. However as they spend more time with each other, it all developes back again. The thing is, Padme doesn't want to admit that she has feelings for him. She loves him, but would admit it because she knew it wouldn't work. It was only at the end where she thought that she was going to die when she finally came out and said that she loved him and when they kiss as they come out of the tunnel, its really ironic. Ironic in the sense that their relationship only begins when death stares them in the eyes and their relationship ends....when death stares then in the eyes.

Its really believeable if you ask me.

Lord_Draco, I agree with you that Anakin DID do some good along the way. He wasn't just a brat.

I still think after reading all the posts on this thread that as a character Anakin Skywalker rocks! We have psychological complexity, moral ambiguity, the exhuberance of youth, this one just as important as all the rest of his attributes/foibles that contribute to his downfall. As a young person he was always going to be more impressionable and head strong than an individual with years of experience and Jedi teaching under his utility belt. I can't imagine Palps having nearly as much success and influence with an Anakin that's say in his thirties or fourties. I personally don't think he could have tricked him, manipulated him so easily.

On this score, I agree with GL having made Anakin young, emotional and passionate, all set in a background of war and political intrigue and corruption. The turbulent times contribute to the sense of urgency that consumes Anakin and compels him to take drastic courses of action to solve his problems. The youth angle is key because when you're young you're impatient and you don't always think things through and keep them in perspective, keep your imagination from getting the best of you. He couldn't keep his fears in check. Some would say he brought that on himself, trying to juggle too many balls and going against the Jedi code, but it's not just that, that contributes to his turn to Vader. Then we have 20 odd years to imagine how he becomes the seasoned campaigner we see in ANH. To me that fits pretty well.

At the end of ROTS, the newly birthed Vader is a pitiful sight, even when we see him with Sids on the bridge as they look out onto the deathstar, Vader's got his arms crossed but the dying embers of Anakin's soul are still in there I feel.

The awfulness of Anakin's fall moves me, and I do feel sorry for him.