Am I supposed to feel SORRY for him?!!

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by Widowlander, May 19, 2005.

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  1. KennethMorgan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 29, 2004
    star 2
    Sorry, I lost track on this thread, so what I'm posting here has probably already been mentioned.

    A while back, I said that a lot of what Anakin did has to be viewed through his point of view. Someone else (I don't remember who) said that Anakin's pride was a big part of it to. Well, I agree with that.

    Notice how Palpatine phrases his offer. It's not, "Join me and I'll save Padme," it's, "Join me and I'll show you how you can save Padme." He playing on Anakin's arrogance, as well as his desire to make everything right.

    A while back, I read a book about grifters called, The Big Con. Based on what I read, I get an idea of how masterful a con artist Palpatine was. He followed the grifters principles to the letter.
    -He played on Anakin's weaknesses (obsessive love for Padme, desire for respect, need to control events himself).
    -He set himself up as a trusted friend.
    -He separated Anakin from those who might distract him (set it up for the Council to send Kenobi to Utapau, drove a wedge between Anakin and the Council, maybe even ordered the attack on Kashyyyk to get Yoda sent away).
    -He offered to provide the mark (Anakin) with what he most wanted (Padme's life, personal power)
    -He offered to use means that were illegal and were, thus, a "sure thing" (Sith teachings).
    -He sprang his trap when Anakin was at his most pliable and had no one else to turn to (Mace killed, blame sure to fall on Anakin).
    About the only place Palpatine goes wrong is that he didn't ditch Anakin, or at least get the heck out of Dodge, when the con was compete. A grifter knows to get away fast before the mark gets wise and calls the police or seeks revenge. It was only a matter of time before Anakin learned the truth and wanted payback, which he got, of course.

    Thus, there's another way to sort of feel sorry for Anakin: "The poor, dumb sap! He got royally taken by a pro and never saw it coming. What an utter pidgeon!"

    Well, that's how I read it...


  2. BlutEngel Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2005
    star 2
    Sounds like vindictiveness.
  3. yoshifett Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2004
    star 5
    Humans don't have free will anyway, so I pity him only because it's the only chemical response from my brain.

    Also, the whole point of the series is the redemption of Anakin, so if you don't buy it, it puts a totally different spin on the series. It's about a selfish person who, from this perspective, does one good thing that does not make up for the series of bad things, even in the non-literal sense. So, you're just following this condemned guy, with no hope of ever atoning for his sins. It makes Star Wars into a maddening existential aburdist comedy.

  4. BlutEngel Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2005
    star 2
    LOL! LOL! Good point and very funny. Look. With me, the only problem I have of people hating Anakin is simply because they're choosing to hate. It's not about him. It's about the contradiction of thinking the Jedi are so good, keeping in mind they abstain from hate, and they're like "I hate him!" etc etc. So they're acting Sith-like in response to a Sith.
  5. yoshifett Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2004
    star 5
    I hear ya.

    My preceding post was the strangest I think I've ever made.
  6. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Actually, Obi-wan and Yoda do try to hope that Anakin works through his attachment issues. They both know of them and both know that he cares for someone a lot. But their faith in Anakin and the Force wasn't enough to stop what comes next.

    That's what Lucas said to Jackson during the filming of AOTC, when asked if the Jedi ever had intimate relations.

    True, but it seems that for all intents and purposes, it's marriage that leads to attachment. More than just a one night stand.

  7. ceridwen1977 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 7, 2005
    star 3
    I think some disturbing things for me are coming from this thread which has done more to sully my opinion of the Jedi than any star wars film has ever done...

    Did GL really want us to think that having a one night stand / "screwing around" is okay because it doen't lead to any attachment issues??? In a so called morality tale that seems way off the mark to me and where Anakin's character is being attacked (and yes rightly so) for killing children / choking his wife why is this is going unoticed? yeah and call me a prude if you like but I don't buy it.

    It confirms my growing suspicions that the Jedi are being presented as some kind of macho boys club and Anakin doesn't fit in because he's too "girly" prone to putting his emotions above everything else which is the usual girl stereotype :mad:

    And NO I am not saying that having sex outside of marriage is akin to killing children and choking women before anyone attacks me for that. What I mean is that compared to the rest of Star wars in terms of morality it seems odd that this would be encouraged for the Jedi
  8. mynameismyown Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2005
    star 3
    yeah i dont what to feel about the jedi either, i do know anakin had the deck stacked against him since he was torn from his mother at 9 thereby really screwing him up. also the jedi wouldnt help him with either his mother or his wife when he had dreams of thier deaths, which i think was wrong which hastened his turn to the darkside
  9. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    I would sure like to see that quote sinister. Because if GL meant it seriously it changes a lot - for one it makes the Jedi rules extremely contradictive.

    Without seeing the quote my guess is that it was in jest - a mere joke between GL and SLJ. Everything on screen points to them being celibate.

    Actually, Obi-wan and Yoda do try to hope that Anakin works through his attachment issues. They both know of them and both know that he cares for someone a lot. But their faith in Anakin and the Force wasn't enough to stop what comes next.

    I disagree. The pushed him towards Padme and Palpatine in AOTC although he couldnt handle it. In ROTS no one knew about his relationship with Padme and continued to push him closer together with Palpatine. They knew about Lukes and helped him work through it. They certainly didnt trust Anakin either - "I dont trust him". And they put no faith in the force as thy went ahead and did exactly what THEY thought they should do -which involved going against the code and creating further imbalance.

    They made massive mistakes with Anakin and they allowed him to have relationships that were dangerous when it suited them. They didnt train him how to let go of attachment because they treated him like every other Jedi.

    The look on Yoda's face says it all when he finds out Padme in having twins. That a real tear jerker.
  10. ceridwen1977 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 7, 2005
    star 3
    And in terms of putting Anakin with Padme and Palpatine it also contradicted what Obi-wan wanted so that brings another dynamic because Anakin was not only stuck between his own problems / baggage and trying to be a Jedi there was also some disagreement between Obi-wan and the rest of the Jedi Council on what Anakin was capable of. So that will have affected Obi-wan... and did he feel that he was being 'undermined'or at the least his opinion was not taken seriously by the Council therefore he tried extra hard to ensure that Anakin was a "good" Jedi?? So it was as much as Obi-wan's reputation as it was about training Anakin. Maybe.

    And also Anakin was not asked what he was capable of. I know we are not always the best judge of our character but since Anakin "has" to take personal responsibility for everything else that happened to him maybe they should have left it up to him? Then we wouldn't be having these disagreements as we could quite happily blame Anakin :D
  11. Obi_Frans Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2003
    star 4
    Jackson said the example of Shaolin monks from Hong Kong kung fu movies had informed his take on a Jedi knight, with characters meditating "like most men are supposed to do in monk-like situations".

    But Lucas revealed that despite their monastic regime, Jedi were permitted to have sex.

    "Jedi Knights aren't celibate - the thing that is forbidden is attachments - and possessive relationships."


    Who's "they"?

    The way i remember it, The Council decides to trust Anakin with a incredibly important mission; Obi-Wan puts his trust behind Anakin 100%, and only Mace doesn't trust Anakin.

    Again, there's a difference between looking at individuals and the entire Order; the Council trusted Anakin, Mace didn't. Mace turned out to be right :p

    Actually, Anakins explicitely told not to trust Palpatine and Padme; Obi-Wan even points out that Palpatine's a snake, in his own words. That doesn't mean he should avoid them though; which is why he's still advised to conduct issues with them (protecting Padme, having Palpatine help in getting Padme off Coruscant). The Jedi have no idea that when Anakin goes to Palpatine that he's feeding him Sith lies, and they have no reason to even suspect Palpatine of doing this.

    - O_F
  12. THEFORCEROCKS Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2004
    star 4
    Obi-Frans wrote

  13. />
  14. />



    Agreed,also Anakin had a chance to tell the council about Padme in ROTS when he said he doesnt care if anyone found out, that was his perfect opportunity to say I am out of here, but no instead he keeps his mouth closed so he can remain a JEDI no fault of Kenobi's or anyone else's.
    In addition, Anakin doesnt trust Padme.In the novel when she is about to reveal she is pregnant she tells him "I do nothing to betray you yet in still you dont trust me." and she says it again in the movie "How long is it going to take for us to be honest with each other."





  15. yeah i dont what to feel about the jedi either, i do know anakin had the deck stacked against him since he was torn from his mother at 9 thereby really screwing him up. also the jedi wouldnt help him with either his mother or his wife when he had dreams of thier deaths, which i think was wrong which hastened his turn to the darkside

    />

  16. What are people expecting the JEDI order to do, tell Anakin go ahead and murder and slaughter up people and your wife will appreciate you,love you and understand and be safe. What did that get Anakin,nothing.Also what did slaughtering and murdering people the first time get Anakin?Youd think that if killing people did not save his mother, something wouldve clicked in his brain that killing again wont save his wife and it didnt. Its not that the Jedi would not help him, they couldnt because how do you stop DEATH.. you cant.

    />/>/>/>
  17. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9

    Palpatine pushed Anakin and Padme together, in the first place. The Council agreed to let them be together since they had faith that he would do well. It was Obi-wan who said it was a bad idea to have him go off alone. Granted, it didn't go well, but they didn't know what was going to happen.


    The Council thought it was best. Only Mace and Yoda had reservations about leaving him with Palpatine. Obi-wan believed that while it would be rough on him, that Anakin would do the right thing in the long run.

    Yoda and Obi-wan knew that he had an attachment. He didn't specify who, but they knew that he had one none the less. Yoda trusted that Anakin would heed his advice and train himself to let go of his fears. Obi-wan trusted Anakin, but went to Padme before leaving to see if she could help. He knew of their feelings for each other, but not how far exactly it went. Mace was the only one who didn't trust Anakin and that was due to the fact that Anakin gave him every reason not to trust him, with his outburst earlier. As well as being objective.

    The Jedi were doing the right thing, it was Anakin who ******* that up.

    They knew he had relationships. Obi-wan taught him everything that he needed to know about how to let go. Yoda reminded him of that. He just didn't want to accept their teachings anymore.

    Yoda told Anakin to train himself. You can tell them that, but it's up to the individual to do that. Luke was taught to let go, but he had to do it on his own.
  18. mynameismyown Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2005
    star 3
    the jedi shouldve done something to ease anakin about his 'dreams' like yoda did with luke in empire
  19. MacetheCouncillor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 4, 2003
    star 3
    That is pretty much what I have always thought as well. It is kind of a typical ggod guy tendency to take blame for stuff that are only to a very small part your own fault, because good guys have conscience, feel responsible for the consequences of what they have done (in this case, how Obi-Wan has taught Anakin).
  20. darth_ral Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 2004
    star 1
    "The highway to hell is paved with good intentions."

    - the story of Anakin Skywalker -
  21. twilightjedi0622 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2004
    star 3
    No. You are supposed to gain some insight as to what led him to turn, and then chant, "BURN ANI BURN", with the rest of us while he smolders like a Forth of July "SNAKE" firework.
  22. obi1andreasen79 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2005
    star 4
    Ya know....I've seen ROTS with three different females now...and "burn ani burn" was their sentiments exactly. I think feeling sorry for him is to overlook every selfish thing he did in that movie. Burn Ani burn indeed!
  23. BleepsSweepsCreeps Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 11, 2004
    star 1
    I don't know what GL's original intentions were, but I, personally did NOT feel sorry for Anakin towards the end. In fact I pitied him, and as a result, the character of Darth Vader keeps his aura. Had we felt sorry for Anakin, then we wouldn't hate him like we do in IV, V, & VI. Remember, the villain of those movies is Vader, not Sideous. We need to hate him in order for the movies to work, and I think ROTS does a good job of re-affirming that dislike for the character.

    We're supposed to cheer for Luke, not Anakin.


  24. arbed Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 24, 2004
    star 5
    In a way I feel sorry for him because Palps played him like a fiddle and he sure was duped, but that boy sure didn't have his head screwed on right! I blame the Jedi, too, for not seeing all the red flags all along over the years. They must really have been shrouded by the dark side. Geez.
  25. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Actually, Sidious is the villian of the Saga. Vader is the tragic hero who fell from grace and gets a chance to redeem himself.

    Actually, you should cheer for him to turn back to the Light Side. To stop what he's doing.
  26. -maynard- Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2005
    star 3
    maybe there is a harem in the temple that was never shown [face_laugh]
  27. Obi_Frans Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2003
    star 4
    lmao, what i'm wondering is if it's something that's frowned upon in the Order; or if it's something that's just out there for all of them.

    Yoda: "Master Kenobi, late you are for this meeting"
    Kenobi: "Sorry Masters, but i just got some gooood Twilek ****"
    Mace: "Twileks huh, that reminds me"
    The Council members proceed to take trips on memory lane, while the issue about making Anakin a Master Jedi is slowly forgottten

    - O_F
  28. BleepsSweepsCreeps Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 11, 2004
    star 1
    " Actually, Sidious is the villian of the Saga. Vader is the tragic hero who fell from grace and gets a chance to redeem himself. "

    Of course Sideous is the villain of the Star Wars Saga, I'm not denying that. But the villain of "A New Hope", and especially "The Empire Strikes Back" is Darth Vader. We're supposed to hate him, and when he and Luke meet in Cloud City.... we're rooting for Luke to come out on top.
  29. AnnLouise Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 10, 2005
    star 3
    Yep! Hope it hurts, pal! For me, seeing Mr "I can't live without her" choking his pregnant wife as she begs him to leave with her snapped the sorry bud right off. The sympathy with his dilema remains, and Anakin is a fascinating character, but I reserve any sorry feelings for the people he killed. In the new SW guide to characters, his kill count is in the "billions".
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