Am I supposed to feel SORRY for him?!!

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by Widowlander, May 19, 2005.

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  1. Siaynoqsbride Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2005
    star 4
    Now I know why I upped this thread awhile back, bringing it back from death...

    ... Actually, I still don't. :(
  2. yankee8255 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2005
    star 6
    I don't care what kind of a predicament you're in, killing innocent children in cold blood can't be jusitified, even if someone had a gun to Padme's head. Which no one did. Anakin does everything: 1)based on recurring nightmares he had that padme would die, not a doctor's diagnosis and 2) on the totally unsubstantiated claim of Palps that some OTHER Sith kenw how to cheat death. That's pretty thin. And I have a wife and new born daughter. I would certainly sacrifice myself to save them. But slaughter the Jedi, including the younglings, just in the hope that I may be able to svae them from a vey uncertain death? That's going a bit far.

    As for the love/hate with Vader, alot of that changed with ROTJ. In ANH and ESB, he is the ultimate bad-a**, force-choking non-believers, deflecting Han's blaster shot, totally tooling around Lando. We loved him even as we were cursing him and rooting for Luke. Then ROTJ comes along and ruins it to a large degree. All of a sudden he's just the Emperor's whiny lap-dog, afraid to take him on until his son is half a second away from extra crispy.

    Finally, in the end, given the deapths of evil Vader sank to between Mace's death and throwing the Emperor down the shaft, it's hard to believe even that act could redeem him.
  3. lrdmonarch Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 14, 2001
    star 3

    I doubt it did.. But he dies in the process.
  4. Obi_Frans Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2003
    star 4
    Redemption isn't about undoing your wrongs, that can't be done; which is a harsh fact of life. Redemption is about righting yourself, in Anakins case; about returning to the loving person he once was, about becoming the Jedi he knows he should be in RotS. In the end, he's able to put a stop to the evil; of himself and of Palpatine, that's a good thing regardless of what he's done in the past. And that's a beautiful thing; that doesn't mean what he did in his past is suddenly "alright" or "acceptable" - but it means he will never do it again, and not just because he's dying; but because he's a good person again.

    You don't have to forgive him; nobody has to, but you'll at least have to accept that he's a good being again.

    - O_F
  5. yankee8255 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2005
    star 6
    OF, I agree with your overall thought to a degree, but look up 'redeem' in the dictionary:

    'make up for one?s poor past performance or behaviour' (from: http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/redeem?view=uk)

    Obviously he can't undo what he's undone, and no question Anakin does a great deed in the end, sacrificing himself. But does it 'make up for [his] poor past performance or behavior'? Not sure any one act could do that, given all that he has done at that point.
  6. Obi_Frans Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2003
    star 4
    Yeah, that's true. Nothing he, or anyone, could do makes up for the horrors he inflicted upon the galaxy. I certainly agree with that, even George Lucas does.

    "It really has to do with learning," Lucas says, "Children teach you compassion. They teach you to love unconditionally. Anakin can't be redeemed for all the pain and suffering he's caused. He doesn't right the wrongs, but he stops the horror. The end of the Saga is simply Anakin saying, I care about this person, regardless of what it means to me. I will throw away everything that I have, everything that I've grown to love- primarily the Emperor- and throw away my life, to save this person. And I'm doing it because he has faith in me; he loves me despite all the horrible things I've done. I broke his mother's heart, but he still cares about me, and I can't let that die. Anakin is very different in the end."

    --George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith, page 221


    I, personally, look upon "redemption" in a more spiritual way then a literal way; i guess.

    "the act of delivering from sin or saving from evil [syn: salvation]"
  7. yankee8255 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2005
    star 6
    I'm just very uncomfortable with where GL took Vader. He starts out as the ultimate villain, inflicting his will on the galaxy. But at some point GL moves away from that, and in ROTJ tries to make him a more sympathetic character, sadly at the mercy of the emporer. Then the PT comes along, and GL centers it around him, trying to make him likable, while at the same time foreshadowing his downfall, and to some degree rationalizing it.

    The problem, as I said, is that by the time of his turning back a the end of ROTJ (and returnig to being a Jedi, force ghost and all) he's gone so unbelievably far down the path of evil. I look at it this way: If Eichmann or Mengele or another of Hitler's henchmen, after all he had done, killed Hitler, dying in the process, I still wouldn't find him to be a sympathetic character, or someone who has been redeemed.
  8. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    "And obviously there are two sides to the redeemer motif in the Star Wars films. Ultimately Vader is redeemed by his children and especially by having children. Because that's what life is all about?procreating and raising children, and it should bring out the best of you."

    --George Lucas.


    "...if you start with Star Wars, then Vader?s just the villain, and that?s it. But you don?t realize that he?s a human being, that he?s got problems you don?t realize that he could have been saved, that he was tricked and can be resurrected."

    --George Lucas.

    When I went and decided that I would tell the back story, it was a very difficult decision at the time. I figured I was done with Star Wars. I didn't want to do Star Wars any more, but then it technically became possible to do it and I had this back story. The back story intrigued me because it kind of turns the whole series on its head. The series was really about Darth Vader. People thought that it was about Luke, but it's not and never was. People would ask me back then, what's it all about? I said, "It's about Darth Vader." In the first film, they didn't even know who Darth Vader was. Is he a monster? Is he a man? What is he? You have to remember that originally, the first three were actually one movie.

    So, you would sit down in one piece and that whole thing, that is now three movies, would be told in one piece. You wouldn't have it broken up. A lot of things, you're my father and the fact that he kills him, that is the climax of the movie, and it's a movie. And, uhm, in order--and I wanted to start in the middle.

    I never intended for the back story to be told. Then later on I said, "Well, if I went and did the first three, then it would sort of give you a stronger sense of where all this is coming from." I kind of told it backwards.

    You don't feel sorry for Darth Vader until the very end. If I tell you the back story, then you're sorry for him right from the beginning, practically, because it's his story and the relationship with the kids is very different."

    -George Lucas, Static Multimedia Interview, 2005.

  9. yankee8255 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2005
    star 6
    I was starting to rethink my harsh criticism of GL and his handling of the Anakin story after reading the quote supplied by Obi_Frans, specifically, "Anakin can't be redeemed for all the pain and suffering he's caused." But along comes DS and ruins it with his bevy of quotes indicating that Anakin is, in GL's opinion, redeemed. IMO, can't be redeemed. He can begin to make amends, but one act alone redeeming him for everything? Nope, not buying. And sorry GL, seeing the PT doesn't make me feel sorry for him. Rather, it makes me wonder how a self brat could end up doing such a good deed in the end.
  10. Parparamia Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 17, 2004
    star 2
    If I was Yoda or Obi-Wan I sure as hell would not stand next to his Force Ghost....and smile on top of that. No way! It would take some serious explanation to justify his destroying the Jedi Order, the Republic and the Billions of lives that he killed because of his decisions.
    But he's like, in ROTJ......"Hey guys...I'm good again"...."lets just forget about all of that *stuff*, hang out and smile at each other."
  11. yankee8255 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2005
    star 6
    EXACTLY
  12. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Anakin's redeemed, just not the way you think he is. He is redeemed by having Luke and Leia, because they bring out the best in him. They redeem him by not following the exact same path and by righting his wrongs.

    Redemption means to bring back from a state of decline. This is true of Anakin as he's brought back from the Dark Side. Redemption means that you make up for your crimes, but he can never do that because he doesn't live long enough to try. Redemption also means to return to one's good fortune or favor. Anakin proves to Luke that he's right, by turning away from evil and proving that he is still a good man.

    Look it up in a dictionary. Redemption has many meanings.
  13. rhonderoo Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2002
    star 9
  14. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    lucas has already stated that kenobi/yoda did it, there is no way around this one. and no they dont need any explanations because turning back from the dark side and fulfilling the prophecy and destroying the dark side saving luke in the process is more than enough for them to accept anakin again.
  15. AnnLouise Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 10, 2005
    star 3
    In Truce at Bakura, the writer puts it better than all of GL's quotes when the ghost of Anakin tells Leia that he's been forgiven, but has much to atone for. And I agree that the whole PT makes me wonder - is GL confusing Forgiveness, Redemption, and Unearned Grace on purpose? He seems to hold two totally different ideas about Anakin at once. Vader - The Totally Evil Yet Forgiveable and Redeemable Badass.
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