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Ambiguous Scenes in ROTS - am I right or wrong?

Discussion in 'Archive: Revenge of the Sith (Non-Spoilers)' started by Garth Maul, Jun 2, 2005.

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  1. Garth Maul

    Garth Maul Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    May 18, 2002
    - what exactly does it mean right after Sidious defenestrates Mace, when his voice gets all weird and "choral"?

    - Anakin says "Love can't save you, Padme - only my new powers can do that."

    Did Anakin actually achieve the power to save Padme's life? Then it would be even more ironic that he helped kill her.

    My brother and I were talking, and we thought maybe that the Sith DO have a power to EXTEND life, whilst the Jedi find the power to TRANSCEND life.

    It makes sense why Palps needs Vader around - otherwise, who cares (as much) if Vader kills Palpatine in ROTJ? He was an old man, surely he would have died soon. But if he had Sith knowledge that let him live forever, Vader's sacrifice and redemption become more meaningful.

    - was Obi-Wan holding back in The Duel?

    Anymore ambiguities?
     
  2. kingthlayer

    kingthlayer Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jun 7, 2003
    I always thought Vader meant it in more of a "once I have the power, you'll be saved". He was supposed to be strong enough with the darkside after killing the Separatists, so he expected to be able to have the power. But I don't think he did actually have it.

    It's an interesting question, of Obi-wan holding back. He doesn't actually disarm (lol pun) Anakin until after he says "Then you ARE lost", confirming that Anakin was not coming back. However, he never had the advantage of the higher ground until after that anyway, so I guess we'll never know.
     
  3. TomPiltoff

    TomPiltoff Jedi Youngling star 2

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    Apr 7, 2005
    "- what exactly does it mean right after Sidious defenestrates Mace, when his voice gets all weird and "choral"?"

    Well, it's the first time that he's gone from Palpatine to Sidious in front of anyone, so it could represent the merging of Palpatine and Sidious' voices.


    "- Anakin says "Love can't save you, Padme - only my new powers can do that."

    Did Anakin actually achieve the power to save Padme's life? Then it would be even more ironic that he helped kill her."

    I look at this as Anakin overestimating himself and trusting Palpatine. Palpatine told Anakin that he needed to slaughter the Jedi in order to become powerful enough in the Dark Side to save Padme. He did that AND slaughtered the Separatists, so he assumes all that's left is to ask Palpatine how to learn the technique.

    "was Obi-Wan holding back in The Duel?"

    I don't think so. Ben went to Mustafar hell bent on destroying the Sith, even if it meant leaving his brother burning alive.
     
  4. beedubew

    beedubew Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Jun 25, 2002
    - Anakin says "Love can't save you, Padme - only my new powers can do that."

    Did Anakin actually achieve the power to save Padme's life? Then it would be even more ironic that he helped kill her.

    It was Padme losing her will to live that killed her. So, Anakin's new powers were actually what killed her instead of what saved her. Anakin's vision of Padme dying in childbirth was only one possible future. We know that the future is "always in motion" so isn't it possible that Padme would have lived had Anakin not turned to the dark side and broken her heart? That would make Anakin correct from a certain point of view. Only his powers (and not using them selfishly) could save her...

     
  5. Blackout

    Blackout Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Oct 7, 2000
    "- what exactly does it mean right after Sidious defenestrates Mace, when his voice gets all weird and "choral"?"

    I think he was about to break into a "Oah you're mah wife now, Dave..." Because from a certain point of view, he'd be right :p

    [image=http://www.lunacynet.com/league/images/ladl_lazarou.jpg]

    {||||| ?||} -----------------------------
     
  6. Kiki-Gonn

    Kiki-Gonn Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    Feb 26, 2001
    I think Obi-Wan was definitely holding back. he should have (if we pretend not to know what happens in the OT) killed Anakin, not dismembered him.
    Why didn't he just cut him in half with that blade swipe... because he couldn't bring himself to do it.
    That scene is definitley ambiguous. You don't know if that's the best he could have done or if he could have gotten a straight kill.
    Because he tell's Yoda "I won't kill Anakin" and he basically begs Anakin not to jump onto the river bank, I say he held back.
     
  7. Lexi

    Lexi Jedi Master star 4

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    Oct 9, 2002
    - was Obi-Wan holding back in The Duel?

    That's a really interesting question. I have to see the movie again, but I think that Obi-Wan was mostly defending himself throughout the duel. True, he was the one who ignited his lightsaber first, but Anakin was always the one who attacked. Obi-Wan could have been a lot more offensive, but he wasn't.
     
  8. Kiki-Gonn

    Kiki-Gonn Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    Feb 26, 2001
    Let me clarify, I agree with Lexi... Obi-Wan was not holding back during the duel but I say definitely when Anakin jumps onto the river bank.
     
  9. DarthWeenie

    DarthWeenie Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Sep 2, 2002
    Id like to respond to the 1st post.

    It makes sense why Palps needs Vader around - otherwise, who cares (as much) if Vader kills Palpatine in ROTJ? He was an old man, surely he would have died soon. But if he had Sith knowledge that let him live forever, Vader's sacrifice and redemption become more meaningful.

    I dont think Anakin's fulfilling of his destiny meant killing Palpatine, but destroying THE SITH in general. Those who use the force, not for the will of the force, but for their own purposes, "leaving [the force] in darkness", as Obi says. The Sith attempt to control the force, while the Jedi let the force control them. Perhaps, as long as there are Sith around, the force is out of balance. Anakin destroyed both Sith, and for all time. Force is happy now.
     
  10. Darth_Banal

    Darth_Banal Jedi Knight star 6

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    Jul 22, 2002
    I don't know if this qualifies as ambiguous or not, but one thing is really bugging me.

    If the Jedi have security recordings of Palpatine's office, how come never once they saw something that gave them a clue about him? At the very least all of his conversations with Anakin (the ones in the film and implied)? And why ask Anakin to spy on him if they have a camera/recorder right in his office?
     
  11. Garth Maul

    Garth Maul Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    May 18, 2002
    Lucas needed to clarify this, because it really bugged my brother as well.

    The security recordings are of the Jedi Temple - I think you were supposed to figure that out seeing Anakin killing Cin Drallig and the Padawans in the recording right before - he should have shown bodies around Sidious and Vader, I guess.

    What I mean, in terms of Vader killing Palpatine, is that the emphasis is on Anakin DESTROYING the Sith.

    But if Luke redeemed him on Endor and they took off (and Vader got his white armor like in the ROTJ: Infinities :p), wouldn't the Emperor have died off pretty quickly? He seemed old to me.

    If Palps was going to live forever (or for a very long time), then Vader's destroying Palps takes on more significance.
     
  12. obi_wan_kanathan

    obi_wan_kanathan Jedi Padawan star 4

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    May 10, 2001
    I have my doubts that the dark side could bring back someone from the dead, but extending life is another story. Cheating death sounds like something the Sith would want to do. Sith live for power, and if you're dead, you're really limited on the amount of power you can have. ;) I would expect that quite a few of the Sith Lords were obsessed with finding ways to keep themselves from dying.
     
  13. Darth_Banal

    Darth_Banal Jedi Knight star 6

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    Jul 22, 2002
    The security recordings are of the Jedi Temple

    But it shows Anakin kneeling before Sidious, which we know happened right after he killed Mace in Palpatine's office.
     
  14. hew

    hew Jedi Master star 4

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    May 8, 1999
    "But it shows Anakin kneeling before Sidious, which we know happened right after he killed Mace in Palpatine's office."

    But it doesn't mean it happen again. I've only seen the movie once so far, but in the hologram doesn't Sidious have his hood up, while in the office scene he doesn't?
     
  15. Kiki-Gonn

    Kiki-Gonn Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    Feb 26, 2001
    I figured the Emperor showed up to see the carnage at the Temple.

    Back to Sidious being around for awhile. I think we're to make the connection that Sidious is extending his life through the Dark Side.
    1) It fits the Plaugeis story... he taught his apprentice everything he knew and then his apprentice killed him. Sidious wouldn't kill his master until he had the secret of immortality, or extended life, or whatever.
    2) He certainly looks like someone who's living well past his natural life span (ignoring the absurd theory that he was disfigured fighting Mace)
    3) It makes a nice juxtaposition... the Sith's unnatural way of achieving immortality vs. the Jedi's natural, accepting way. Both of these are revealed in Ep III. Yoda tells us about Qui-Gon and Sidious tells us about Plagueis.
     
  16. hippie1kenobi

    hippie1kenobi Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 28, 2002
    what exactly does it mean right after Sidious defenestrates Mace

    Off topic I know, but Ihave aleays love that word; defenestrate. It blows my mind that there is a verb for so specific and act as throwing something out a window.

    I don't think Obi-Wan was holding back during the duel, but he certainly didn't have it in him to deliver the final blow. Unable to save Anakin but unwilling to kill him, he just walks away.
     
  17. Garth Maul

    Garth Maul Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    May 18, 2002
    I also like the fact that Anakin tries to beat Obi-Wan the same way Obi-Wan beats Maul.
     
  18. Winston_Sith

    Winston_Sith Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Apr 8, 2004
    :::But it doesn't mean it happen again. I've only seen the movie once so far, but in the hologram doesn't Sidious have his hood up, while in the office scene he doesn't?

    Yep.

    Plus, Darth Sidious says:

    "You have done well, Lord Vader. Now you will go and restore peace and justice to the Galaxy."

    Or something Sithly like that.

    And that's nothing like the dialouge that occurs after Sidious fries Mace in "Palpatine's" office... at all.
     
  19. Garth Maul

    Garth Maul Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    May 18, 2002
    Exactly. We'll allow for the confusion on opening night, because the movie was overwhelming. But not for subsequent viewings.[face_shame_on_you]
     
  20. beedubew

    beedubew Jedi Youngling star 2

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    Jun 25, 2002
    I just assumed that the scene Obi-wan watched on hologram was after the Jedi Temple slaughter but before Anakin went to Padme to tell her of his departure to Mustafar. There is a hole in it that theory because Palps tells Vader to go to Mustafar as soon as he is done with the Temple....


    hmmm
     
  21. NorCalBirdz

    NorCalBirdz Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 28, 2004
    I for one was and am still annoyed by the "choral" sound of Sidious's voice in the that scene. It gave the scene way too much of a campy quality. The audience in my theatre, including myself, at the midnight viewing really wasn't buying it. It's fine once he puts his hood on and his voice goes back to normal, but I just wasn't buying the deep voice.
     
  22. Garth Maul

    Garth Maul Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    May 18, 2002
    I thought it was unexpected, eerie and cool.

    But then, I love pretty much everything about ROTS.[face_blush]
     
  23. episodenone

    episodenone Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jun 13, 2001
    a la "defenestrates .... which may i officially be the first in this thread to compliment you G_M on your fantastic choice of lexicon.

    did anyone notice a strange camera something or other when palps does the reveal to anakin in the foyer of his chamber and the camera pans directly on sidious after keeping them both in frame??

    mcdiarmid's face seems to me to "stretch" out or something.

    i have noticed this in all 6 viewings so far...

     
  24. origjedi

    origjedi Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Aug 27, 2001
    Yes, I agree with many statements suggested here. Also, I recall Qui-Gon's statement, "Greed can be a powerful ally". I know he wasn't referring to the dark side at the time, but it seems the sith's greed for power is powerful as well. It's their thirst for this power that propels them to find ways to stay alive much longer than "natural".

    I also feel that their "fear" of dying keeps them going. They're afraid to die because as obi_wan_kanathan states, "...if you're dead, you're really limited on the amount of power you can have". Their desire is so strong that they will do anything to keep it, even "unnatural" things. It's this love (misplaced) of power that makes the Sith dangerous. I guess that's how "love" could have a double meaning for Anakin. He loved Padme but at the same time he loved having more power. It seemed "enjoyable" and "satisfying" to him. He knew he shouldn't want more power but he can't help himself, much like he can't help himself loving Padme. I know they are not one in the same or interchangeable, but I don't think Anakin did. I believe once he joined the darkside he couldn't differentiate between the two and his insatiable love for power took over, even beyond his love for Padme. I guess what is confusing for me is that he force chokes Padme before The Duel then once he dons The Suit he asks if she's ok. Was he thinking about everything that he did while they were operating on him? Was it one last grasp of hope to see if at least she survived? I don't know.
     
  25. Garth Maul

    Garth Maul Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    May 18, 2002
    Sometimes when you get caught up in the moment, it's hard to think clearly. That usually happens to me when I'm really drunk, but I've noticed it at other times as well. ;)

    The thing I love is that not only is the Jedi path to immortality safer, both for the individual and the galaxy, but it's more powerful as well!

    "Strike me down and I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine!"

    I guess one way the midichlorian explanation that everyone hates works is that they are a kind of "middle man" between living beings and the Force.

    But when a Jedi dies, if he's a "Saint" Jedi like Obi-Wan or Yoda, he becomes one with the Force - then there's no intermediary - you ARE the Force, and the Force is you.
     
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