Discussion in 'Literature' started by Gruntz, Feb 11, 2018.
Too bad she couldn't sense that her "leadership" style was pushing her crew toward mutiny.
If that's a jab at the movie again, you did a poor job of disguising it.
Not all Force-sensitives can sense everything you know. Even the untrained.
No, that's a jab at Holdo. She was a lousy leader. I liked the movie.
Listening to the commentary track by Rian Johnson for Last Jedi, he said his original idea for Holdo, and what they first shot, was that she was weird and "hippy-dippy" (whatever that means) but they ended up reshooting a lot of it to change her character tone (you can see some of her weirdness in her first speech to Poe, watch her random hand waving at one point). Now, I haven't read Princess of Alderaan, and this is total conjecture on my part, but maybe the "holdo speak" patterns were in what info they gave to the author so she incorporated it full bore, and what was in the character's 1st draft / 1st shoot. But they reshoot it cuz they didn't quite like it when it came together. But, since the book has a lead time and was working off 1st draft shooting stuff, the "holdo speak" remained even though they reshot it outta the flick.
Still haven't had the time to watch TLJ with Rian's commentary, but this totally explains Holdo's character in the Leia novel.
Wonder how often these kind of last minute changes affect the tie-in books and comics...
Still a jab at the film in my opinion.
EDIT: Ok, wow. That gif is really obnoxious.
Is it a jab at Casablanca to say Louis Renault is a lousy cop?
Well said, @jSarek. Here are your winnings.
Oh, thank you, very much.
Everybody out at once!
Never seen Casablanca so I have no idea what you are talking about.
We only saw part of Holdo's leadership in TLJ. We don't know how she got the rank of vice admiral and why the Ninka crew trust her.
And here in lies the question? Why must every senior rank officer (admiral, general) tell a mere squadron captain anything?
Did Ackbar and General Kre'fey tell Wedge Antilles, a squadron commander (yes despite Ackbar's familiarity with Wedge himself) that Blackmoon was Borleias? Did Wedge tell Corran Horn (a young lieutenant) that Tycho Celchu was on Coruscant when he was supposed to be on Noquivzor?
Sure Poe questioned Holdo on what her plan was just moments after taking command and was pushing her to tell him everything before she could formulate the plan herself. That's why she brushed him aside, she had gotten all the facts she needed and the last thing she needed was for Poe to force her into something reckless. By the time he confronted her, the plan to get to Crait was already underway. Admittedly yes, Holdo could've told the plan to everyone then but then, how did she know how the First Order were tracking them? How did the Resistance know (aside from Finn - who isn't an official member at the time - or Rose - who of course went straight to Poe with Finn to formulate their stupid plan)? How could they not know that there might have been a mole aboard the Resistance ships? That's why I reason Holdo didn't tell anyone except the senior officers (which Poe wasn't anymore I might add since he was demoted), she didn't know who out of the junior officers wasn't transmitting to the enemy everything that was going on. The speed in which they abandoned D'Qar and then getting most of their senior staff killed within a matter of hours might've done a number on Holdo herself and almost losing Leia hurt her just as much as it did the Resistance. Poe also hadn't met her before Holdo came to the Raddus as he'd only been in the Resistance for what, six-nine months, and the Ninka was likely on other assignments and only reported to Leia when Poe was off on his missions. They never met in person and never served together in the Resistance until then, so they knew each other by reputation. That's what I saw onscreen anyway. Holdo wasn't a lousy leader, she was operating under stress (both openly and internally), and being hounded by Poe got him banned from the bridge before their last confrontation and she wasn't in the mood. Besides, after Poe left in anger, she likely told those bridge crewers what was going on anyway. Poe just ran off and told Finn and Rose, which ultimately tipped the balance and left more people dead.
Agreed. I think the fact that they had reason to suspect a mole makes Holdo's actions all the more understandable. Sure Poe is likely not to be the mole, but he just recently had a mole in his squadron and is far too trusting
I agree that Holdo was under enormous pressure and in a no-win situation, working with people she didn't know. She still didn't handle it well. If she had just told Poe, "Yes, we have a plan. I'll tell you your part when you need to know. Stay out of my way right now; I'm very busy," that was all that it would have taken to avert the mutiny. But she only gave him some vague platitudes about hope, which left him believing she had no plan. And at the end of the day, she lost all 3 ships, and all of their crews except a dozen or so lucky survivors. Ramming Snoke's ship was an impressive act of redemption and a powerful example of dedication and sacrifice, but it still didn't make her a good leader.
If Poe had kept his mouth shout, then maybe 400 Resistance fighters would still be alive and not 20.
They got the crews of those ships out first. The Anodyne's captain says "The last of our crew has been evacuated and is heading your way" We see the last of their transports leaving the hangar bay.
The U-55s have a capacity of 60. Keeping in mind that these ships are mostly automated so they can use skeleton crews. The Anodyne's minimum crew was 170, so two U-55s make it out of there at the very least. That makes room for 120 to have escaped. That's not even taking into account the chance that they had sent another batch over to the Raddus earlier in preparation for running out of fuel.
I ship Holdo and Ghost Luke.
She did a good job of evacuating those crews to the Raddus. But then most of them were killed in the shuttles headed from the Raddus to Crait as they followed her plan. How many of them survived long enough to make it to the ground? She has to bear responsibility for all those deaths too.
Again, that's on Poe.
I disagree. Holdo was in charge, and the one in charge takes responsibility for everything that happens in his or her command. What Poe did may have been wrong, but it was an entirely natural and predictable response to Holdo's failure to provide effective and inspirational leadership. If Holdo had led better, Poe would have followed better, and fewer people would have died. The ultimate responsibility comes back to Holdo.
You clearly didn't read my explanation. Holdo didn't have to tell Poe anything!!! She is an admiral, he is a squad captain. Difference in rank pretty clear.
How should she be to blame for Poe accidentally leaking the fact that the U-55s were fleeing? sure she maybe did not handle him as well as she could have, but at the end of the day, armed mutiny and leaking important info recklessly is still on the person who did those things. If we play the blame game then this is Leia's fault, if she had put some of the main bridge staff on the secondary bridge then maybe Ackbar or someone could have been in command and everyone would have trusted her more, well though the FO would not be doing as well if Ben did not fall and that's also on her but more so Luke, oh but it's not Luke's fault for being a flawed teacher that's on Obi Wan, and why blame Obi let's blame Gin, of but let's not blame him let's say it's Dooku's fault cause he could have trained Gin to be more defensive in duels, but let's not blame Dooku it's clearly on his Master Yoda, but Yoda can't be blamed cause he was manipulated by Palpatine, and him being in that position is on Jar Jar, and his actions are on Padme, and her actions are on Sio Bibble.
Finally we have found who to blame Sio Bibble must burn in hell for the First Order destroying transports that they knew about due to Poe's recklessness.
Look upon the face of true evil
The death tool really was catastrophic you MONSTER
Ok so that might have just become an excuse to use the Sio Bibble meme.........., but all things considered my point is that once we start blaming people's actions on all the people who's actions lead them to doing what they did; then no one is to blame cause everyone is to blame. Poe is responsible for his actions, Holdo was less than perfect, but it is draconian and absurd to put the deaths of the Raddus's crew on Holdo. Was informing Finn and Rose of important info without properly making sure no one was listening or anything really inevitable? Was armed mutiny really inevitable cause she refused to tell a subordinate her plan? Poe had proven himself brash and untrustworthy in a position of power just one hyperspace jump ago. Holdo has every reason to not clue him in on sensitive info or justify herself to him. From were she is standing he just disobeyed orders and got their entire bomber wing taken out, hell yeah she has provocation not to trust him.
And saying this ultimately is Holdo's responsibility is to far. Did she make some mistakes? sure. But is it her fault Poe is a hothead? no. People have to be responsible for their own actions. Heck that's one of the central themes of the film, Ben blames Luke's moment of weakness for all his actions. The point the film is making is that Poe is doing something similar. Is Vader to blame for that idiot pilot in ANH crashing into him? I mean he was Vader's wingman, Vader should have picked someone less squeamish or made sure this pilot was in control of his faculties more.
You want to give Holdo some of the blame? I disagree but I can understand that. But the destruction of the Raddus' crew being on her is way to far
And he had JUST proven he does not listen to orders. I will admit she could have been more inspirational to the rest of the crew, but in terms of Poe, she handled him exactly the way he deserved. And this is coming from someone with TWO Poe Dameron shrines........I have a problem
Holdo is Leia's choice and a hero of the Rebellion.
Poe is a traitor and should have been spaced.
I mean I like Poe but......yeah he done fudged it up
Poe reacts like people should expect to know he's the protagonist and thus give him all the slack Luke and Leia and Han got.
Except, they got results.
I think it's time to agree to disagree.