CT An alternate hero?

So how are her traits bad or not admirable?

 

Well, first of all....Vader didn't sense Leia in ANH because she wasn't his daughter at the time, and there's no indication that Vader sensed Luke in ANH either (though, again, they weren't related at the time). It really wasn't until Ben "talked" to Luke that Vader said, "The Force is strong with this one," so it's possible that Vader actually sensed Ben (and confused him with the Force), rather than Luke. Also, Vader sensed Luke in ROTJ, but Palpatine did not. Force sensing is not an exact science, and it can be influenced by many factors, such as the mindset of the person doing the sensing. Ben and Yoda were able to "hide" from Vader and Palps for decades, and Vader needed Han and Leia as bait to lure Luke out in ESB (and Luke didn't sense Vader in the second part of the Cloud City battle, almost losing his nose in the process.) Yoda and Mace and all the other Jedi are all around Palpatine, but never sense he's a Dark Lord, nor does anyone sense Dooku arriving on Coruscant.

Okay...found an old post of mine from 2003. Here goes.

Sensing is not an exact science.

It's not really using the Force, so much as it is learning to mind their thoughts. I'll explain why this is and use examples from the films.

First of all, the Jedi have been totally unaware of the Sith's continued existence for a thousand years.

Lucas said that it's like walking into a fog. The Dark Side is everywhere and the Jedi are having trouble sensing it. Obi-wan senses something in the Force, but he doesn't know what it is or where it's at. And because Qui-gon told him not to center on his anxieties, he didn't investigate it further.

When Obi-wan and Qui-gon arrive on the Trade Federation ship, they can sense the fear and unease from Nute Gunray and his associates. They feel that fear like a beacon in black of night, but they haven't determined what that fear is all about. They don't dig deep enough, instead they choose to wait until they meet for the negotiations. Had Nute and Rune entered the conference room, it wouldn't take long for the two Jedi to determine the reason behind their fear. That they had an invasion army and were dealing with someone sinister.

Not long after meeting Padme, they discover that she's pretending to be a handmaiden and not her true role as the Queen of Naboo. Qui-gon uses this to his advantage when he takes shots at her on Tatooine. Lucas makes mention of this in the TPM DVD commentary. The reason the Jedi know this is because she has had little experience around Jedi, virtually none, and she has no idea that they were on to her from almost the beginning.

Darth Maul had to rely on trace from the location device on the Nubian, to find them on Tatooine. And later had to rely on the probes to find Qui-gon. Neither Force user detected the presence of the other on Tatooine.

When Anakin meets with the Council, his thoughts are like an open book to them and thus they know what he's thinking about. It is in AOTC that we hear Obi-wan tell Anakin to mind his thoughts and feelings. He knows what on Anakin's mind and he totally disproves of it. As a Jedi trained in the Force and knowledgeable about how their thoughts and feelings can be sensed, they must take extra care not to be discovered by their peers or enemies. Yoda senses something from Palpatine, but he isn't sure what it is.

On Geonosis, Obi-wan does not detect the Dark Side in Dooku. Nor does Mace Windu and the rest of the Jedi.

Anakin tells Padme on Naboo that they could hide their relationship from the Jedi, in effect living a lie. Padme's not comfortable with this as she knows that the consequences of doing that would be devestating. However they decide to get married anyway and try to keep it hidden. We already know from Ian McCraig that Padme's going to try and hide her pregnancy from the Senate and the surviving Jedi, in episode 3.

Also, on Tatooine in AOTC, Yoda senses Anakin's pain through the meditation of the Force. He also hears Qui-gon Jinn at the same time. Later, chasing Dooku on Geonosis, he senses Anakin's anger at leaving Padme behind, which is why he asks for his ship. It's not until after Dooku uses Force lightning that Yoda even mentions the "Dark Side". Pretty big hint, that lightning.

Of course, at the end of the PT, Obi-wan and Yoda were able to fake their deaths and the Sith had no idea of this.

In ANH, Obi-wan felt the massive disturbance from Alderaan.

 

There is one scene in ESB where it could reasonably be interpreted as Leia and Vader making a Force connection. When they're in the carbon-freezing room on Bespin, Leia and Vader glance at each other and Leia has this strange and intent look on her face as she backs away. You almost get the feeling that she sensed who Vader was. In the same scene, Vader saves her life when he stop Boba Fett from firing at her. I think Vader knows at that point who Leia is, this is why he "alters the deal" with Lando.

 

Hmmm, can't say I agree with that. First in that scene, isn't Boba about to shoot at Chewie, not Leia?

In any case, Vader saves Leia (and/or Chewie) because of her value as a prisoner. Both in terms of luring Luke to the dark side, and intel on the Rebellion. There's no reason to take from that that he's suddenly sensed that she's his daughter for no discernible reason. Indeed, his reaction in RotJ ("Sister. So, you have a twin sister.") suggests that he is learning this for the first time. And I would read Leia's intense look as simply the result of the fear, sadness and other emotions she is feeling at that particular moment.

As to the original question of whether Leia would have made a better hero than Luke, I voted that she would have been about the same. Leia has her own talents and her own flaws separately from Luke, which means I think with the same training she would have been a different, but equal Jedi. For example, Leia is a natural diplomat and has a more sophisticated understanding of the way the galaxy works, but also has a feistiness that borders on outright anger - not conducive to the light side.

Of course, I agree with those who assert that Leia would not have been able to continue her life as a princess of Alderaan while receiving Force training. MeBeJedi is correct that sensing the Force is not an exact science, but the the films do also suggest that once someone has been "awakened" to the Force ) there is something there to be detected. Life in court would always have meant that Leia was bound to meet Vader or the Emperor at some point, and that's a huge risk to take. Even on Tatooine, the last place in the galaxy Vader would ever want to return, Obi-Wan held off on training Luke until it was absolutely necessary.

On a final note, as to the question of why (in-universe of course) Obi-Wan and Yoda decided to train Luke and not Leia ... Well, you could chalk it down to sexism, but I prefer to link it to their continued faith in the prophecy of the Chosen One. As many of you probably know, the original novelisation of ANH opens with this quote:

What if that is (part of) the prophecy of the Chosen One? Hence why Qui-Gon thinks Anakin is a likely candidate - a male from Tatooine, planet of two suns. Obi-Wan and Yoda are deliberately trying to invoke this with Luke, because they think they were wrong about Anakin. Hence why Obi-Wan believes Luke is their only hope in ESB - who else matches the criteria of the prophecy?

 

Well, before ROTJ, Luke's real sister was supposed to have been a reasonably trained Force user hidden somewhere else in the galaxy, iirc. My main computer's down, so I can't verify this.

 

Yes, that's true, hence why I added the qualifier "in-universe".

Who knows, maybe the ST will show us Leia wasn't the other hope Yoda spoke of in ESB.

 

For a bit of time around the making of ESB, yeah, that appears to be true.

 

Yes, but they both still have personal flaws. And I'm referring to more than just letting go of an attachment or allowing oneself to feel romantic love.

 

The problem with these hindsight perspectives is that "what should have been" is never gonna happen. So they're just an interesting mental exercise.

I think Leia shouldn't have been Luke's sister from a plot perspective and that instead they should have introduced a new character like originally intended, but obviously that never panned out.

The ending of Return of the Jedi vindicated him holding onto his attachments. It was his love for and faith in his father, not his skill with the Force or a lightsaber, that defeated Palpatine.

 

Opinion seems to be divided on that - I've seen it argued that it was only when he stopped being attached to Vader and Leia, and threw aside his weapon - that he inspired Vader's change.

 

Letting go of his anger was not letting go of his attachments.

Yoda and Ben told Luke that Vader had no good left in him and that he would have to kill his father. Instead, he repeatedly tried to reach out to Anakin Skywalker and when given the chance to kill him, cast away his lightsaber and said that he was a Jedi like his father once was. And that belief that his father still had good in him is what led to Vader killing the Emperor. If Luke had actually let go of his attachments, he would have killed Vader after calming down.

 

That does seem plausible. In the new junior novelization of ROTJ, we actually see both Yoda and Ben ask themselves if Luke was right and not them, at various points.


"Unfortunate that you rushed to face him ... that incomplete was your training, Not ready for the burden were you."
"I'm sorry," says Luke.
But he isn't. And Yoda doesn't truly expect him to be.
They both know the reasons for Luke's actions. He let his feelings come before his duty.
Now, in these last minutes of his long life, Yoda wonders if Luke might have been right. If, perhaps, one's feelings are more important than one's duty.
Perhaps ... but also more dangerous. So very dangerous. He remembers what happened when Anakin Skywalker put his feelings before his duty - he turned to the dark side, became a tool of the Emperor, and set in motion the destruction of the Jedi.


"Your insight serves you well," says Obi-Wan. "Bury your feelings deep down, Luke. They do you credit, but they could be made to serve the Emperor."
Luke looks away, across the swamp into the mist and murk. His mind, however, is clearing.
"What about my mother? Who was she? What happened-"
"No, Luke," says Obi-Wan. "Let that truth stay with me for now. You carry too many burdens already."
Luke starts to argue, but sees the pain in his old master's face and simply nods.
Obi-Wan considers Luke. He cannot sense the future as well as Yoda could, but he does sense that Luke will not be able to bury his feelings.
But, just as Yoda did, Obi-Wan wonders if, perhaps, that might not be a failing at all.
Obi-Wan and Yoda and Qui-Gon too, were masters of the Force. They buried their feelings and used the Force at its fullest power.
And they failed to stop the Emperor. They didn't even stop Anakin.
Perhaps Luke's feelings really will serve him.
But if not ... all will be lost.

I thought the opposite of attachment was indifference - the state of "zero feeling for something"?