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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

PT An analysis of Anakin's turn

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by HevyDevy, Feb 15, 2015.

  1. inopotamo

    inopotamo Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Dec 18, 2016
    What i love about the prequels is the how the story leaves so much to look at and analyze without being too bleak on the details.

    Some very good reads in this thread
     
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  2. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 2013
    You know if this was simply a one-off I might put this kind of thing down to co-incidence but the deeper and deeper that we go it seems that over and over again Lucas actually knows his own work so well and even though he doesn't hand us the rhymes and reasons in an in-your-face way so often it's right there.

    His imagination just works on a scary level of connection and imagination.
     
  3. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    I like that link as well man, I had considered it.

    I agree that Lucas wasn't necessarily to lazy to make things between each trilogy connect, with his attention to detail I think he just genuinely thought he could craft a better story while making changes.
     
  4. CLee

    CLee Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 18, 2017

    I think it was a bit of a missed opportunity to not show Anakin aware of and reflective of that Dooku was once a noble Jedi and had turned to the Dark Side. A big part of why Luke didn't fall was because Vader was a vivid negative example (from the cave vision and especially at the end where he notices the gloved hand similarity) but Anakin also had an example he could have considered.









    Those lines to me felt dodgy, maybe mostly from Hayden's delivery, I thought it was more like Anakin really did dislike Obi-Wan or at least was really OK with not going to rescue him rather than just reluctantly sticking to orders. At least in AotC Hayden in general seems a little too surly and insincere when he's trying to be positive to Obi-Wan, saying he's like a father.

    With all of Anakin's flaws and internal conflict, I'm not sure how much confidence Mace or Yoda or the others should still have in the Prophecy which was rather ambiguous to begin with. Anakin probably wouldn't have sided with Palpatine if he saw how he attacked the other Jedi but it's too hard to be certain, he likely would have been more manipulative from the beginning of the encounter but gotten to the same point by the end or soon after. I don't think he would have accepted being arrested and taken to trial so the encounter wouldn't have gone too differently.

    [/quote]

    Why do you think he did decide to do this? Is it because she made exceptions to her principles for him in the past or that he then felt he couldn't go back to the Jedi so she was all he had in his life?

    Also why and how did he feel that the Jedi would move against the Senate?

    Part of the issue was there was too much of a gap between wanting to protect Padme and thinking that he could/should remove Palaptine and OTOH wanting to and feeling he had a right to rule the galaxy (and expecting that Padme would accept/also want that), I guess it's a fine though simple idea that power and ambition can easily corrupt but it could have been more developed.
     
  5. CLee

    CLee Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 18, 2017
    I think even without her seeming to die her firmly rejecting/from his point of view betraying him and the Empire could have made him sufficiently bitter. It would fit with the Jedi recollection of her being kind but sad that they had had an unbridgeable estrangement.

    Him killing a whole village, including even massacring the women and children, probably was going too far for the second movie where he's still supposed to be the root-for hero, there could have been some Dark Side use that was bad but still much more grey, for example regretting that he killed a lot of people in rage even though they did come at him with weapons.
     
  6. Daxon101

    Daxon101 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 7, 2016
    I think anakin showing the dark side through people attacking him probably wouldn't have fit what Lucas had set up.

    Obviously yoda saying about anger leads to hate and hate leads to suffering is exactly what happened, and the concern that anakin shouldn't be trained because of his emotion attachment to his mother was actually what came back to haunt Anakin.

    Now id say trying to turn luke to the dark side in the OT is fairly questionable also since they tried to use his attachment to Leia and the others to fuel his turn to the dark side.

    I'd say Lucas was trying to mirror the OT but perhaps it wasn't always recognised when it came to the Mirrored logic behind it.
     
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  7. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    I think the exclusion of a true revelation like this for Anakin was kind of the point. Dooku means nothing to Anakin; despite Dooku's once being a Jedi who was corrupted much like Anakin, Anakin sees him simply as the enemy. Notice he is using Dooku's own saber along with his own Jedi saber to kill him, completely oblivious to this superstitious irony. Obi-Wan misses the mark, congratulating Anakin on the "victory" later, that Obi-Wan was unconscious for hence missed the nature of. Anakin is trained never to kill in cold blood, but it is something the Jedi inadvertently set him up to do, and Palpatine overtly encourages it fully aware of the damage it will do to Anakin's soul.

    And I think Anakin/Vader never really sees the folly of this until (arguably) it has some bearing in his following Luke's example at the end of ROTJ. There was never a cave moment for Anakin, and the father's and son's paths had really diverged until this simultaneous moment; Luke's success and Anakin's newfound clarity and reawakening.



    I partly agree on the acting, but I think Anakin was sincere. Conflicted, confused, but trying to do what he thought was right. I think it is a little far-fetched to imply Anakin didn't want to go to Geonosis because he hated Obi-Wan. He seems happy when Padme forms an argument for them to go afterall.
    On Anakin saying Obi-Wan is like his father, this is part of a greater theme regarding Anakin's parental figures. It should have been Qui-Gon, but on Qui-Gon's death Anakin is fostered to Obi-Wan, who is more like a brother-figure, and cannot counter the pull of Anakin's final father-figure Sidious.



    It is partly due to the change in Anakin's turn during production, but I think in the final cut the implication is Mace contributed to pushing Anakin closer to Palpatine by leaving him at the Temple. I agree that if Anakin was there from the beginning Palpatine would have used a different strategy, so it is paradoxical really.



    Interesting point about her having let things slide in the past.
    But yes, I think for Anakin it was ultimately the Jedi or Padme.



    Paranoia and the dark side played on his mind to make this seem like a valid rationalisation to what he had been seeing over the course of the film. "Your focus determines your reality." He wanted it to be true because it was the easy out so he lied to himself, and lying to himself and Padme becomes easier the further he goes in. Plus in the script/deleted scenes, technically the Jedi were going to remove Palpatine from office even before he was discovered as a Sith, and replace any Palpatine-friendly Senators with Jedi-approved ones. But yes, not kill them of course, this was Sidious blatantly lying on that occasion.


    Agreed, there are elements of ROTS that were there in it's creation but unfortunately got watered down or lost in the process of making the final film. I have noticed one positive from this is some of this ambiguity means the film is very subjective and grey, and a lot of what we personally bring to the table is projected into a deeper experience. It's interesting.
     
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  8. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011