PT An analysis of Anakin's turn

C'mon now, a little hyperbole nerver hurt anyone. I only used the word "wacky" to emphasise the fact that only George knew his story and what Star Wars was really about. I consider most imaginary Star Wars stories I used to make up when I was younger as "wacky". But anyway, lets see;

Anakin's age.
Sebastian Shaw's ghost never made much sense, considering he was almost a decade older than Alec Guinness. In ANH Obi-Wan refers to Anakin as a "young Jedi", and in RotJ says that "when I first knew him, he was already a great pilot." Neither line of dialogue makes much sense if Anakin was supposed to be about the same age, if not older, than his tutor.

Padmé dying in childbirth.
In the ANH novel, Palpatine is a hapless politician who gets played by other, corrupt politicians, not to mention he wasn't a Dark Side Force-user or Vader's master. This was a huge retcon from ANH to TESB. Vader and Anakin being the same person. I'm sure you know George had a whole backstory about these two being separate people, before deciding to retcon it for TESB. Some of the EU at the time even had them as different people. Luke and Leia being siblings. Nothing in the first two films points to this being a logical conclusion. Quite the contrary, which is why they were love interests for each other in the first two films. Then it was retconned, and we had to make due with a flimsy explanation to mask the blatant incest vibes. They went even further in the novels and other EU at the time, because they had no idea that they'd be related. There was even something about uncle Owen being Obi-Wan's brother in the RotJ novel, which is just goofy.
Need I say more?

Yoda trained Obi-Wan.
Simple answer: Obi-Wan had two masters, Qui-Gon and Yoda, just like Luke had two. That's not a retcon, because it doesn't directly contradict anything. It's called revealing a previously unknown aspect of a character's vast and lenghty history. At the very beginning of TPM, Obi-Wan talks about how Yoda had instructed him to be mindful of the future and such, which right from the get-go establishes that Yoda has been teaching him things even while he was officially the apprentice of Qui-Gon. And throughout the PT, we see the two counseling together on multiple occasions, which makes it obvious that Yoda kept an eye out for Obi the whole time. Not every Jedi got into the inner circle that seemed to include the two, as well as Mace. A possible, in-universe explanation could be that Yoda felt a sense of responsibility to Obi-Wan, especially after Qui-Gon's death, since he was his master's master's master. This is what he is referring to when he says things like "the Jedi Master who instructed me." In-universe, there was no reason to give Luke a lengthy history lession on who this long-dead Jedi named Qui-Gon was. It would have just confused him, and they were in a hurry to train him. Plus it's completely in-character for the "from a certain point of view" Kenobi, the master of not telling things the way they really are, a.k.a. retcons.

 

So?
Films can be ret-conned as well.
ANH established that Luke's father was dead, that was later ret-conned.

My main point was a counter to the argument that people had made up "crazy" theories about what happened before the OT. And these theories came from nothing but their own imagination.
Not so, the RotJ novel, which was released and so plenty of people had the chance to read it, made it 100% clear that Leia lived with her mother for a few years.
So anyone that read that book and then came into the PT expecting this to happen. That isn't their fault, they didn't make stuff up based on nothing. They got their ideas from an officially sanctioned book from Lucasfilm.
And blaming them for this is both rude and inaccurate.

@Seeker Of The Whills

Well given how much the Star Wars story changed over the years, I think we can say that not even Lucas knew from the start exactly how it would all play out.

I am guessing you got Shaw's age from Imdb as that is never stated in the film. How old he looks is subjective, I can buy that he looks a bit younger than Obi-Wan. Say perhaps ten years younger.

As for it not making sense, I saw RotJ back in 83 and Shaw made sense and I didn't know anyone that had a problem with him. Well some had a problem with Anakin even getting a ghost as they felt that Anakin/Vader had done too much evil to just be forgiven like this.

And given that "too old Shaw" is still IN the film, you have just added more problems. Shaw's Anakin is too old and Hayden's Anakin is too young. So both inconsistent and adding more problems. Not seeing how this made it better.

What ANH said is problematic as you yourself said, Vader and Anakin used to be different people and had two different backstories. Vader was supposed to be much younger than Obi-Wan. Hence "Young Jedi" and Vader's "Old man". Plus Obi-Wan and Anakin were full Jedi Knights while Vader was just a young Jedi and it is very much implied his training wasn't complete.

So in ANH, Anakin could be Obi-Wans age but Vader was younger. This is made even clearer in the novel as Red leader met Luke's father when he was a boy and Red leader was in his 40's in ANH.
And Anakin was by then a famous pilot. So what he mentioned took place around 30 years ago.
When Lucas decided to merge these two characters he had a choice, go with the younger "Vader" age or the older "Anakin" age. When he made RotJ, he went with the latter. He hired an older actor to be Anakin, both behind the mask and the ghost. And the ghost was described as "elderly".

When he made the PT, he changed his mind and made Anakin and Obi-Wan younger.
Which is his choice.

As for RotJ, given that Obi-Wan says that Anakin was already a great pilot when he first knew him, that to me implies that Anakin was an adult. He had trained to become a pilot and had some years of being a pilot when he first met Obi-Wan. So Anakin might have been Luke's age or even older when he met with Obi-Wan.
If you want to bring up Yoda's "He is too old.." bit. Remember that Obi-Wan said that he took it upon himself to train Anakin and he thought that he could do it just as well as Yoda. So it is very possible that Yoda refused to train Anakin for this exact reason and Obi-Wan did it himself. With bad results.

But RotJ doesn't speak against an older Anakin and the ghost more or less confirms it.
So don't blame people for thinking this.

And??
What does this have to do with Padme dying in childbirth?
That ret-cons happen in SW, yes I know.
But this isn't about that, it is about people accepting what was in the films or novels as correct so they didn't make up "crazy" theories based on nothing.

Anyone watching ANH would think that Luke's father is dead as three people say that in the film.
So if they sit down to watch ESB and think that Luke's father is dead, that isn't some "mad" theory they just made up to spite Lucas, it is simply based on them watching ANH.

How well they accept this ret-con is another matter. But this is about them being WRONG to think that Luke's father is dead based upon watching ANH.

Anyway, RotJ the film doesn't support the idea that Padme died in childbirth and it is a very illogical conclusion to make based on the film. And the novel makes it clear that she didn't.
So again, don't blame people for thinking that Padme lived with Leia for a few years as that is stated in the novel and the film very much implies it.

Again, what is your point?
This was a ret-con and not a terribly good one in my view. And I know that I am not alone in thinking this. This has nothing to do with your argument, that people have made up "insane" theories based on nothing.
You say that the excuse is "flimsy", I agree, and the reason that it is flimsy is that the first two films didn't imply this in any way and so if people didn't think that they were related, that wasn't due to them making stuff up, it was based just on watching the films.

Actually it does, which I already explained. Obi-Wan's use of "THE" when talking about Yoda makes Yoda into the singular Jedi master that instructed Yoda.
If someone says "Go to 10th street, there you will Kane, THE person that taught me Kung Fu."
This to me says that Kane is the one person that taught the speaker Kung Fu. Not that Kane was just one of a bunch of people that taught him.
But it is a minor quibble.

Obi-Wan could simply say "A Jedi master that trained me." or "One of the Jedi masters that trained me."
Simple and wouldn't confuse Luke.

In closing, in some cases, you can twist what the characters say around or bend logic so that you don't have a direct contradiction.
But again this isn't the issue. You said that people made stuff up based on nothing.
As I've shown, this is wrong. In many cases it is based on the films or the novels and so not "nothing".
So it isn't the audience's fault that Lucas changed things.
How well they accept these changes is another matter.

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

It's actually quite simple regarding the Yoda/Obi-Wan thing.

-> Yoda taught Obi-Wan along with the other Younglings.

-> Qui-Gon was assigned as Obi-Wan's master.

-> Qui-Gon died.

-> Most all the other Jedi died.

-> Yoda's the only one alive as far as Obi-Wan knows.

-> Thus Obi-Wan is going to tell Luke to go directly to Yoda by saying simply, “The Jedi Master who instructed me.” Yoda DID train Obi-Wan for a time, and because Yoda's the only one left who can train Luke, and they don't have time to give Luke a lengthy history of Obi-Wan's childhood...

-> This is why Obi-Wan said, “Yoda . . . The Jedi master who instructed me.” Who else is he going to point Luke to? Everyone else is dead.

 

As I said above,
Obi-Wan could simply say "A Jedi master that trained me." or "One of the Jedi masters that trained me."
Simple and wouldn't confuse Luke.

Plus when Yoda calls Luke reckless, Obi-wan steps in and asks if he was any different when Yoda trained him.
For that line to make sense, Luke and Obi-Wan would have to be of at least a similar age.
This is why Yoda training Obi-Wan when he was 6-7 years old doesn't work.
Because then Obi-Wan is comparing his 6-7 year old self to 20 something Luke.

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

Yeah I have to agree with Samuel Vimes, Obi-Wan being reckless at like five-years-old doesn't make much sense relative to what is said in the OT. But I don't mind the retcon, Qui-Gon's inclusion added layers regarding the disparity between each era of Jedi in the two trilogies.

 

No its not a retcon. It just wasn't shown to us of Obi-Wans years of training. These kind of "holes" aren't holes at all. They just aren't shown to the viewer possibly because there is really no need to do so.

 

How is it not a retcon?
Yoda was originally written as Obi-Wan's "master" (singular) when Obi-Wan was "reckless", ie not when he was a youngling. And Obi-Wan was also originally written as the discoverer of Anakin.
That Obi-Wan "thought he could instruct him just as well as Master Yoda" can now be rewritten as "as well as Yoda or Qui-Gon". Still a retcon though. It can be a retcon and still not a plothole. It's a redesign.

 

A comedic element to the TESB scene in light of the prequels is Obi-Wan says:

"Was I any different when you trained me?"

A question. And the answer is obviously both yes and no.

But the reflexive answer is "yes". Which makes it funny.

Also, points of view, as always.

Obi-Wan actually was reckless when Yoda trained -- or, more accurately, retrained -- Obi-Wan at the end of the PT, putting him in touch with Qui-Gon. Because Obi-Wan had just lost his apprentice to the Dark Side, which Yoda warned him about way back in TPM after Qui-Gon died. Obi-Wan came to Yoda for more training, or Yoda told Obi-Wan he had training for him, just after Obi-Wan had battled Anakin on Mustafar and he and Yoda helplessly watched Anakin's wife slip away after giving birth: a union maintained in secret under Obi-Wan's nose (which it is implied he sniffed out but kept quiet about). Reckless? His padawan joined forces with the Sith Lord manipulating everything, helping wipe out the Jedi and birth the Galactic Empire. We kind of have to give Obi-Wan's line a darkly funny reading. Maybe it's a weird in-joke between them.

Furthermore, the line in TESB, absent the prequels, has never really made full sense. Because, even going by the established lore of ANH, there is the implication already that Obi-Wan's reckless streak, per the TESB line, might have played a role in Obi-Wan losing that wayward pupil of his: one Darth Vader. By the close of TESB, the line, in the context of Obi-Wan trying to justify Yoda accepting the responsibility of training Luke, starts looking all the fishier. So Darth is actually Anakin; or at least Luke's father. What therefore was Obi-Wan trying to put across to Yoda by posing that question so whimsically?

"Don't worry. Sure, recklessness brings about its own problems, like fallen apprentices and evil empires, but no-one's perfect. And, besides, an empire can't become another empire, can it? Oh, it can? Well, look, I wasn't responsible for the Death Star, was I? I gave my life for Luke and his friends to escape! And I surrendered my best bath robe. Not that it matters too much now. Do you know how hard it is to actually get a bath in the netherworld of the Force? And a crafty smoke is out of the question. Let me cut loose here. I can pay you 20,000 Force Dactaries. No? What need of you of money on Dagobah? Okay, that's a fair point. Tell you what. I can watch over your soup and shout you when it's ready. I can even cool it down with my Force breath, free of microbes and midi-chlorians. I can hum the 1812 overture really well and swat away gnats that bug you terribly at night. I know you've mentioned those enough times. Too much Living Force annoys anyone. I understand. Don't feel bad. Alright, alright... I stuffed up. You really wanted me to say it, didn't you? All those years ago, I put your purple socks in the wrong drawer, and you've never forgiven me, have you? What's that? Oh, alright, for pete's sake! You're such a know-it-all. Fine, fine, fine. Being reckless isn't good, but what else are we gonna do for the next thousand years? So I left Anakin alive on that lava bank, but *you* ran away from Sidious in the Senate right when you almost had him! You'll never live that one down. And why didn't you just ram that column you levitated into Dooku's ship? It nearly gave me a heart attack, that bloody thing, just hovering inches from my head, and you could have spared me that and saved the galaxy. You just love levitating things every once in a while and showing off, don't you? Come to think of it, not that I wish to sound too ungrateful, but why did you even save me and Anakin at all? You stuffed up real good with your 'attachment' theory mumbo jumbo, didn't you? Heavens above! Even though I'm a ghost and you're older than an oak tree, we're not getting any younger. Just train the boy, will ya?"

 

I had actually thought myself that Obi-Wan could additionally be referring to being at Yoda's side post-Order 66.

 

"Qui-Gon's defience I sense in you. That, you need not."

"Was I any different when you taught me?"

 

Yes. And the closeness of Yoda and Obi-Wan throughout the PT (it's hinted at in practically the first scene) means that Yoda was always training him in some capacity.

Yup. I've argued using that prequel line before.

Plus Obi-Wan's penchant for jumping through high-rise windows and leaping out of starships to swat Battle Droids.

 

Why would it have to be referring to when Obi-Wan was a Youngling? As the prequels tell and show us, Yoda instructed Obi-Wan all through his teenage years and into his twenties and beyond. Qui-Gon himself notes that, even at the age 25 and on the verge of being knighted, Obi-Wan is still "headstrong and has much to learn of the Living Force." Surely Yoda, himself having had such an influential role in Obi-Wan's instruction up to the present, would also have noted these qualities in him over the years. The prequels indeed shuffled things around a little, but all told the retcon was actually exceedingly minor. Nothing that is said in ESB has to be substantially reinterpreted at all. The only changes are to minor details that were assumed but never actually implied. Basically, ESB simply never mentioned to us that Yoda was only Obi-Wan's main teacher as a page, and that he had an additional teacher as a squire, before once again falling under the sole mentorship of Yoda as a knight.

 

Because several people have tried to explain this issue by referring to AotC, which showed Yoda training small children the basics of the Force. So the argument is that Yoda trained Obi-Wan, along with all the other young Jedi, when they were 5-6 years old. And then Obi-Wan was handed over to Qui-Gon who them taught him more advanced stuff.

My rebuttal to this is that Obi-Wan compares himself to Luke and he was reckless like Luke is now when Yoda taught him. And Obi-Wan comparing his five year old self with 20+ Luke makes no sense.

And if Obi-Wan talks of how he was around TPM, that too has issues. Obi-Wan in TPM is almost a fully trained Jedi knight. Luke is just a beginner. So if Obi-Wan compares himself to how he was at the start of his training, like Luke is. That has issue because Obi-Wan was much younger.
If he is referring to how he was at Luke's age, that has other issues as Obi-Wan was practically a full knight at the time.

As for Yoda "Instructing" Obi-Wan in the PT. The Force ghost thing yes but the rest could simply be Yoda giving advice to Obi-Wan. To call it "training" is a bit of stretch.
And the Force ghost seemed to be Qui-Gon teaching Obi-Wan, Yoda would only tell him how to talk to Qui-Gon.

But as I said, you can twist things around so you don't have a direct contradiction and it is very minor.
What I take issue with is that people who thought that Yoda trained Obi-Wan engaged in "Whacky fan theories".
Not so, it is a natural conclusion from watching ESB.
So it not something people made up to spite Lucas.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

Well, it is a retcon. You might want to read the behind the scenes books on TPM, as it is revealed there that Lucas did write a draft with Obi-wan finding Anakin and teaching him, with Qui-gon being a fellow Jedi who shows up in Act III to help Obi-wan fight Maul and then is killed off. Then Lucas changed the story so that Qui-gon is Obi-wan's Padawan and it is Obi-wan who dies fighting Maul, only for Qui-gon to change his name to Obi-wan and he takes Anakin on as his Padawan. Lucas decided to split the difference and this is what we got.

The way it works is that Yoda taught the Younglings from the time they came into the Temple, up until they're paired with a Master which happened between the ages of twelve to fourteen. Officially, Obi-wan was a few days shy of turning thirteen when he ended his tenure under Yoda. Ahsoka was fourteen when she was paired up with Anakin. So thirteen year old Obi-wan, who was reckless and longing for excitement and adventure under Yoda's tutelage right before being handed over to Qui-gon, is a fair comparison to make to twenty three year old Luke Skywalker who had the same issues before being trained by Yoda.

The years of training isn't so much the issue, as it is that Obi-wan was deemed as being not ready for the trials due to his recklessness and Luke isn't ready to be trained because of his recklessness. Yoda says, "Was I any different when you taught me". He doesn't specify if it was at the start of his training, or if it wasn't an issue all around. We can infer that it is the former, but it can also extend to the latter.

 

This is actually a very good point. The Jedi Order of the PT does seem to see Force sensitives around Anakin's age as potentially dangerous; if their specific responses to Anakin are anything to go by. Yes, Anakin -- the distrusted outsider. But we could maybe extend their curious mixture of intrigue and unease to other padawans of a similar or slightly more advanced age. If Obi-Wan was just shy of thirteen when ending his tenure under Yoda, then it suggests that even being taught by the best there is, effectively from birth, doesn't always guarantee that a thirst for adventure has been roundly tamed. So Obi-Wan is roughly twice that age in TPM when we join him; he's had another lifetime, if you will, to quell those tendencies. So he's more square. But he still has an impish sense of humour and behaves a bit recklessly at times.

I'm suddenly looking at his friendship with Dex in a different light. Now it suggests Obi-Wan vicariously living out some of those tendencies through a space alien that's been around. The first scene of a bearded Obi-Wan even begins with Anakin reminding Obi-Wan that he fell into a nest of gundarks and then Anakin rescued him, which prompts a warm laugh from him. But then there is also his relatively conservative approach to "not exceeding" their mandate and "doing exactly" as the Council has instructed. It's almost like Obi-Wan leads something of a double life in the films, which is funny to think about. I mean, window-jumping from a 1000-storey penthouse apartment, heading to the bar for a drink in the middle of a hunt for an assassin, curious looks at Sabe in TPM, beating up Jango in the rain, evading those sonic charges, scowling at Dooku while being in a compromised position (kinda literally) -- Obi-Wan is the bloody Roger Moore of these movies.


Okay, I completely revise my opinion of Obi-Wan. He was always doing stuff on the side. Maybe he and Anakin were rather a lot alike; and neither could quite recognize it. And an Empire resulted. What a wonderful black comedy!

 

Oh, he and Anakin are definitely more alike than they would have liked to think. For one thing, we know they both like to banter and joke around. That's why the times when they're most at ease with each other seem to be when they're verbally sparring with each other in the thick of battle. I can't understand for the life of me how certain people interpret exchanges like the ones during the AOTC airspeeder chase as being hostile affairs between two people who can't stand each other. Those are actually the times when it most seems like they're kind of, you know, having fun and genuinely enjoying each other's company. Obi-Wan enjoys lambasting Anakin for his reckless piloting and Anakin loves teasing Obi-Wan about his fear of flying. There's no anger or iritation in the back-and-forth there, only mirth.

You see this even more in TCW, where they're constantly bickering like an old married couple. They're not mad at each other, that's just how they express their love.

 

Because by that age people have developed strong attachments to others, thus making training more difficult and risky. Yoda brings up this issue in TESB as well.

"He's too old. Yes, too old to begin the training."

The issue of training Anakin wasn't his recklessness. It was his attachment which nurtured fear. Fear of loss.

 

Yet Luke who is older than his father when he begins training still finds ultimate enlightenment.

 

I love the way you describe their bond. Right on!

Yes, I know. Anakin had a separate issue.

But the broader point remains: The PT Jedi thought nothing of judging and even fearing children.

 

?!

They determined the facts and were wary of the consequences, they weren't judging the person nor did they fear children.

 

"Your thoughts dwell on your mother."
"Afraid to lose her I think."

That's pretty accusatory stuff.

And yes, they seemed to fear children to some degree, since they were judging Anakin while he was still a child.

 

What are they accusing him of? They are simply stating facts. His thoughts did dwell on his mother and he did fear to lose her.

What they were asserting (not judging) has nothing to do with him being "still a child". Him being a child doesn't change the fact that he has strong attachments and that it will have consequences on his training and actions in the future. That's not fear, it's being wary and cautious of the consequences.

 

Probing into a person's mind telekinetically is a little bit rude. Especially asserting things about a person's emotional commitments and using that to dismiss them.

Doubly so when they're just a child.

It's a conservative, entrenched, risk-averse response. And fear underpins wariness.

Your focus determines your reality, I guess.

 

It's not his age, but definitely it is his attachment. His age only plays into it due to the fact that he was nine and had already developed an attachment to his mother. Whereas everyone else was much younger and when it comes around to Luke, he's older than Anakin and yet, the attachment is still evident.

Because Luke was raised to maturity, roughly, with the Lars. By the time of their deaths, he is wanting to leave and go off on his own. His hesitation when Obi-wan tells him that he needs to accompany him to Alderaan, is because Luke is afraid of the big challenge that lays ahead of him.

LUKE: "It's such a long way from here."

But when the Lars are killed, Luke doesn't have hate in his heart. He finds that he has nothing to hold him back and this helps him going forward. When he does face his trial, Luke finds himself because he sees what the dark side leads to and because he has great compassion in his heart for his father. Anakin couldn't see himself in Dooku at the time of their last confrontation. All he could see was a man who had betrayed everything he once stood for and who deserved to die for what he did. Much like Luke did when he went to face Vader the first time at Cloud City.

 

Seriously?! They are sensing him through the Force. Besides, it's like saying it's rude to being asked questions in a job interview.

What emotional commitment? He's being evaluated for Jedi training, attachments and fears are relevant and do matter.

"What does that got to do with anything?"

"Everything. Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering."

It's right there in the dialogue. And guess what, he was right.

Indeed.

Luke was in a completely different position and he's not without his faults. He lost his family but he was attached to his friends. His attachment put his friends lives at risk and almost got himself killed when he saw them in pain and rushed to them.