An Empire, by any other name...

Itrakh (and anyone else having similar trouble):

In the future, when your post does not appear right away, try this:

1) Save the text of your post in a file.

2) Quit your browser.

3) Restart your browser.

4) BEFORE connecting to TFN, clear your browser's cache of temporary files (if you can do this before restarting your browser, even better).

5) Then connect to TFN and return to the topic you were posting in.

You should see your post then. If you don't, repost with the text you saved. Usually, though, you don't see your post because your browser doesn't realize the page has been updated, so it simply displays the page it has already cached.

 

I'm glad you do.

 

You figured it was the case? I thought your source told you I knew nothing.

[This message has been edited by Darth Ludicrous (edited 03-19-2000).]

 

Darth Ludicrous
You figured it was the case? I thought your source told you I knew nothing.

My sources don't tell me any thing about you. They tell me things about the NJO that you don't seem to know. And I didn't say that you knew nothing , I said that you didn't know everything as you seem to imply all too often.

 

a la DL & Santee

Santee is right. The spores are the catalyst that started her body's waste. It can continue without the spores present, and in fact, the waste probably creates the new spores as a by-product.

Sounds an awful lot like a virus to Itrakh. Spores can propagate asexually in vast quantities, but usually don't cause damage to host cells, like viral propagation (sp?). Though that has come under debate recently.

(Itrakh apologizes for poor spelling of good vocabulary--since the advent of spell-checker the spelling portion of Itrakh's brain seems to have atrophied.)

 

Oh goodness... I really didn't anticipate the popularity of this thread! I haven't posted much because of time. Also, Santee is probably representing my opinion on Clighal better than I could (thanks!).

First point - Dew - thanks for the kind words ("...Helen or someone else we trust let us know."). That really means a lot to me, and I appreciate it very much.

Second, and building on the first point, please be assured that Del Rey is being attentive to fan reaction to New Jedi Order. Not just on Vector Prime, but the books that follow it as well. I know this for a fact - trust me.

Helen
TFN Books

 

Helen, a poll on Cilghal relevance has been started. Enjoy.

Semi-official poll that responsible forumites should respond to

So far, Cilghal is not supported well.

 

Helen Thanks for stating (more or less for the record) what I've stated before in this thread. Del Rey is aware of fan reaction and takes a good deal of it seriously.

D. 'Lude states his theory: "I guess Del Rey underestimated the fanaticsm the omission of a minor character would cause."
It's not fanatacism. She was a protagonist in four (4) prior novels. It's just basic continuity that they fouled up. Any EU fan with pulse would have seen this. You are merely trying to label your opponents in this debate as fanatics so it easier to dismiss their well-constructed, fact-based arguments.

Survey says? [insert annoying buzzer sound here] Sorry, try again.

DL again: "The original reason folks wanted to know where Cilghal was is because they were upset over Mara being ill ..."
OK, here we have more of D. 'Lude who has already lost this debate so he is clinging to this idea that critics of Vector Prime are merely upset about Mara Jade being ill. This is an old, unsuccessful tactic of his. Well, Jade's Fire and I have been quite clear that this isn't the case. He's lost on the facts, so he's trying to dismiss our case outright on this silly notion that because we like Mara, our objective analysis of the story is moot. Both Jade's Fire and myself have stated that if they merely included a half sentence when mentioing the New Republics best doctors, that would have satisfied us on the Cilghal issue. See, the problem is that Cilghal's ommission was just one of many indicators that even many casual Star Wars readers know more about the EU than the corporate team that threw Vector Prime together. That's what bothers us and many other loyal fans the most.

Lastly: "I don't speak for Rel Rey. I have never claimed to. If you want to talk to someone who speaks for Del Rey, email Steve Saffel."
Been there, done that. But really, DL, you sound as though you are being used to promulgate CYA spin on behalf of Del Rey so don't be surprised that people will think there may be some affiliation, even if it is unofficial. You can't have it both ways. Either you are an insider or not. You certainly have led some to believe, through subtle insinuations, that you're the dude with the inside angle.

Itrakh,
Bror Jace loved your bit of humor. He thinks you should seriously consider adding to the humorous threads in the fan-fiction section of this forum.

--- Bror Jace, formerly Rogue 4

 

Noted Bror.

Time permitting, Itrakh'll get it there, but feel free to add it if you like.

The madness that is Itrakh will spread like a plague... Muwahhahaah.

[Vader]: Itrakh, I find your lack of seriousness disturbing...

[Itrakh]: {poodu} [poodu]

 

Thanks for the real info Helen, I think DelRey knows now how much the fans care about the "people" of the SWU.
D. 'Lude I'd like to say that I agree 100% with Bror Jace on the Cilghal business. Especially this part DL said "The original reason folks wanted to know where Cilghal was is because they were upset over Mara being ill ..." You're so wrong DL. You tried the same sort of reasoning with saying that we didn't like VP because of the Chewy thing. Or the dark tone, Or the brutality of the YV, Or the questionable science. It's not what happens, it's how it happens and how RAS deals with these things. And it not this little thing or that little thing that make VP less than my favorite book (I feel that I need to state again that I don't hate VP, I just don't think it is better than middle of the road.) Mostly what the problem is with VP is ALL the little things put together. One or two minor problems in an otherwise interesting book can be (and are) overlooked. But VP is just one problem after another with a writing style that left me less than thrilled. Sorry, VP just will never be a favorite book of mine.


Bror Jace says of DL: he's trying to dismiss our case outright on this silly notion that because we like Mara, our objective analysis of the story is moot. Now I'm not quite the Mara fanatic the Bacta Prince and JF are (tho I'd give almost anything to be Mara for a while) but I agree whole heartedly with their feelings on how Mara is treated in VP and with {b]Bror's[/b] statement Both Jade's Fire and myself have stated that if they merely included a half sentence when mentioning the New Republics best doctors, that would have satisfied us on the Cilghal issue. And I agree with his statement that the Cilghal business is a glaring example of the initial lack of care that went into VP.
Now, from what Helen has said, and from what I know of Kathy Tyers, that lack of attention to the details of the EU should be a thing of the past. I can only hope that the authors of the books beyond Kathy's has been given ample time to acquaint themselves with the EU and won't be left in the dark as RAS was.


Itrakh, This Wookiee loved Itrakh's[/b] humor too. Keep up the fine work. And where can this Wookiee add her 2 deci-credits worth to the Cilghal poll?

 

Double and I only clicked once. Oh well, I'll use this space to let Santee O know that I have some thoughts on Mara's disease that I'll post tonight. Consider yourself warned

[This message has been edited by Dewlanna Solo (edited 03-20-2000).]

 

D'oh!

[This message has been edited by Jades Fire (edited 03-20-2000).]

 

A certain Wookie could put her creds here Forum3/HTML/004049.htmlclick on me

Itrakh's bank account could also stand the addition of a few credits...

 

Santee, I am not sure how I can explain my position to you any differently. But, alas I will try one more time. First some facts on which we agree.

Mara Jade has decided to fight this disease alone, by herself. This is her fight, and hers alone; family members need not intrude. She wants this to be a nuisance, and not dominate her life.

You also seem to be working on the premise that Mara does not completely trust, or come to rely on Luke and his family yet.

You have taken the little bit of information that RAS has provided to you about Mara and her disease, and made a leap of logic to form a conclusion about how she is acting. Your conclusion is based, in large part, on how some people pychologically react in real life to these situations: Former loners who retreat to their loner selves and tell family and friends not to intrude. This is not the only way that allformer loners will react however. Some might act just the opposite. Do you deny all former loners will react the same?

My point is that your interpretation of Mara is based more on what you believe in real life, having studied or observed human behavior and pyschology, and less on what was actually written in the book. RAS provides little clues to this conclusion.

What makes this doubly toubling for me, is RAS's lack of understanding of where Mara was at the end of VotF. He did NOT know what occurred in VotF. He may not have even been briefed on it. In VotF, Mara says that she needs to be more emotionally open, that denial of more close relationships had stunted her growth as a person, that she has rejected her loner ways.

As a reader, we go from a Mara Jade who has rejected her emotional isolation, back to a Mara Jade who has isolated herself again, thowing up huge barriers around herself. The only explanation for this, is her disease.

RAS provided little or no clues whatsoever to explain this regression in Mara. As a man whose brother was going through this, I would have thought that he would have tried to do a better job of explaining the reasoning behind a change in behavior.

RAS left far too little clues in the book for me as the reader to come to his conclusion regarding Mara and her actions. As I said before, don't spoon feed me, but leave me with enough clues or crumbs so that I can find the food myself.

I find some of your other examples tenuous and non-sequitors, at best. I would also say that my point is backed up by the Union comic. Her attitude where she needs to be the one who decides on the dress. She is the one who chooses the dressmaker in the end. The conversations she has with Luke as well. Her questioning of the wedding itself, and of some of his actions. It shows her spunk admittedly, her lack of agreement in some actions, shows the doubt in some of the things that the rest of the family does. She does end up going thru with the wedding, yes, but you must also ask yourself this. You learn thru experience correct? So she is learning, and this is just one test from which she learns. Most, if not all women, pick out their own dress, and/or dressmaker -- a non-sequitor. Also, many couples go through the questioning phase leading up to a wedding -- normal behavior for many. Yes, she does learn through the entire experience. It is difficult for me to see your point JF because of the upbringing that Mara has had. It takes time to truly trust someone with your life that completely, especially if you have had to rely on noone else except yourself for 25 to 30 years. It doesn't help matters in that for most of the time, she had been told that these same people were criminals by the "lawful" emperor and the empire. This is definitely shown in the Thrawn Trilogy. That last command did make matters rather difficult. Correct me if I am wrong, but by the end of TLC, Mara is about 23 years old, maybe 25. Since then, she knows that the Rebels are not unlawful or criminals, and that she was lied to and deluded the whole time. The lies would be banished as completely as she could banish them. That's a considerable amount of ti

 

JF, yeah I can see that as happening, except only at a younger age. My conclusion is based more on what Mara has had to deal with throughout her life and with the hints laid out by RAS. How many "loves" has Mara had? If my memory serves me correctly, she has not had many if at all, unless you consider the Emperor to be one of her lovers. So she really has no experience in matters of the heart. As if anyone does.

The completeness that you talk about occuring in VOTF, happens to some degree. The bond those two have occurs, yet it still isn't complete. Yes, the first time that they talk, it is a total opening up to each other, but you can also notice that it is Luke who is the one who is read like an open book in the relationship. Mara still has her areas that are hers alone. Did she let Luke know that she was going to send Jades Fire into the fortress? No, he came to that conclusion on his own from watching her reactions. As well as a feeling of sacrifice that he got from her. But he still didn't know exactly what she was going to do until he actual saw Jades Fire come down. Did he fully understand her meaning when she was talking about the cuts into the generator. No, it is only from watching what she was saying and how she was moving that he was able to glean understanding. Same on her side, but that only serves to illustrate my point further. The bond did not allow them to see everything about each other except when they first gained it. After that they both toned it down, and erected pseudo barriers. And this is mainly from Zahn in VOTF that I am getting this inference.

Another thing with Union, it was written during the writing of VP, or a slight bit after it. Also how much did Mara rely on Leia and the rest of the crew to be her emotional support as well, instead of just the normal wedding support? I didn't see anything really definite outside of the normal family and friends support offered to the new bride of the golden boy.

But this is all just my opinion.

 

This topic has come up once again. Mara and her learning to fully open up, as well as to use others to assist with different actions. I also liked this discussion we were having here.

 

Say Dewlanna, did you ever get those thoughts down on paper about Mara's disease?

 

Three books into NJO and still no Cilghal.

Not even a mention.

It's still irritating.

 

I think this is next up for the thread muncher. Pay it no mind.