An Empire, by any other name...

someone's posts aren't showing...

 

grrrr... another test.

 

Ack, I did all that to get the post to show up, just to see it making fun of my spelling and grammar?
Any experts out there... want to sample the novel I'm trying to write? I could use honest critism, and I'm humble enough to accept it. If I don't accept advice and suggestions from critiquers and editors, I'll never be published like RAS.
Also, if anyone wishes, feel free to create a "sins of VP" topic so that I know what to look for while rereading the novel. So far the writing, the execution, is exsquisite. So much is revealed without being obvious. And it seems there are more EU rights than wrongs. We never catch the right stuff, I suppose, since it is "right" and doesn't stick out.

 

DL said:

Mara being sick, isn't something that was just "sprung" on the editors as a surprise. ...............................The NJO novel is broadened and more story possibilities have been created. The Yuuzahn Vong are more dangerous and insidious."Interesting assumptions, DL. Just out of curiosity, is this "speculation" or straight from the source's mouth? Inquiring minds want to know.

[This message has been edited by Dewlanna Solo (edited 03-16-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Dewlanna Solo (edited 03-16-2000).]

 

test...
this is getting annoying. I wonder if it's the Council, or just this topic.

 

Not straight from the Horse's mouth, just something that everybody who knows anything about the publishing world, especially when series work is involved, should understand. If you've been keeping up with Kathy Tyer's updates, you might have seen some of this at work. Remember when she asked for permission to make a significant change to the general planned storyline?

 

Not straight from the Horse's mouth, just something that everybody who knows anything about the publishing world, especially when series work is involved, should understand. If you've been keeping up with Kathy Tyer's updates, you might have seen some of this at work. Remember when she asked for permission to make a significant change to the general planned storyline?

 

ack. test under another name.

Not straight from the Horse's mouth, just something that everybody who knows anything about the publishing world, especially when series work is involved, should understand. If you've been keeping up with Kathy Tyer's updates, you might have seen some of this at work. Remember when she asked for permission to make a significant change to the general planned storyline?

 

*sigh* one more time.

 

My problem with DL's info is that he is trying to imply that Cilghal's omission in VP as deliberate, not an oversight.

The oversight by RAS might have resulted in it being deliberate by an editor. RAS' lack of knowledge about the fish-chick doesn't neccessarily exclude an editor from knowing about her and not insisting on her inclusion.

 

I posted that as speculation Bror. if you want to see real disinformation, visit my website.

As for your cited hanging plot threads? Rhomamool is just one of many Galactic Hotspots. It says so right in the book. And Nom Anor is going to incite more fires just like it across the galaxy. Nom Anor's gone from there, leia's gone from there.. who cares about it anymore?
And Luke meeting Lando? Who cares about that either. Not everything has to happen "on screen" especially if it's boring.
If you could get over Mara being sick (And I know it must hurt since you literally are her biggest fan... I remember the Zahn letter when we thought she would die in VotF), Bror, I really think you'd like this novel, because all your other complaints are grasping at straws, just trying to justify not liking it for what's happened to Mara.

[This message has been edited by Darth Ludicrous (edited 03-17-2000).]

 

I wrote this Thursday night off-line:

D.'Lude: "Who woulda thunk CIlghal would be the difference between a good book and a bad book?"
As Jade's Fire said, this is not my (or anyone else's) position. The lack of Cilghal is an indicator as to how little the author knew about Star Wars and how poorly this book was edited overall. Vector Prime has plenty of problems with this one being one of the more obvious ones. I said this before in this thread and you should have remembered it.

More DL: "I'm rereading Vector Prime now. I'm rereading it with my critiquer's eye ..."
Sorry, but I'm convinced you're unable to look at this whole subject objectively. The lengths you've gone to in defending the indefensible on this forum suggest a high degree of emotional involvement which taints your point of view even if you are trying hard to be unbiased and at times, I think you are trying.

DL again: "There is so much revealed that we've previously overlooked ... [and] a lot of folks ... have conveniently overlooked many things that could have only been researched."
Care to mention a few examples? Not that it would convince me, mind you. I mean, I wanted to like the book but it prevented me from doing so. That happened for a good reason. A handful of examples pulled out of the book won't change my mind. I just thought I'd warn you ahead of time before you put too much effort into this. The overall book was just too disappointing.

Still more DL: "And Mara's illness... she isn't out of character at all. She's perfectly in character."
I'm not gonna argue this point too much. Santee Ordrin's wrote a really good post (his first one) but we know why most Mara fans feel that she wasn't dealt with properly in this book. RAS failed to consult the landmark Hand of Thrawn duology before he wrote his novel despite it being available to him at the time. That's the simple truth. I might accept a decent after-the-fact explanation if the book was a 'tweener' stuffed in the continuity somewhere but not as a high-profile kick off book from a new publisher.

And lastly: "And Cilghal? I've forgotton all about her. She isn't relevent to the story ..."
[Begin sarcasm] Yeah, right. A main character gets a mysterious, deadly disease and The Force is the only thing that helps at all. There exists a character from four past novels that best uses The Force to heal others isn't even mentioned in the story. Oh, I can really see how you can classify her as 'irrelevant.' Sure, I can see that. [end sarcasm]

The following was written on the morning on St. Patrick's day:

DL, As for me being a rabid Mara fan, you're right but honestly I was not really put off by her being ill ... by itself. I figured that she'd be cured sooner or later and concentrated on the rest of the story. I think it was the moon crashing scene and the way it was written that made me give up (mentally) on the book. Before that, I thought it was only so-so. I found the ending scene laughable so it finished on a down note comparable with the worst parts of the Crystal Star, The New Rebellion or a Barb Hambly book.

I'm on record (e-mail and the old BDD) as saying that Vision of the Future would've been a great place to leave the main charcters including Mara. Maybe a short story on the wedding but we got Union instead. If Del Rey or some author kills her off in the NJO, I'll promptly stop reading. It's as simple as that. I've lost most of my enthusiasm for Star Wars anyway. Between Del Rey's fumbling and the shallow mess that was Episode 1, I'm kinda surprised I'm still a fan at all. I think the fun I have flying the X-Wing flight sims on my PC have gone a long way towards keeping that spark alive. We'll see how long that lasts.

--- Bror Jace, formerly Rogue 4


[This message has been edited by Bror Jace (edited 03-17-2000).]

 

When dealing with lifethreatening issues, one tends to revert back to the life strategy one grows up with. This seems to happen with most people. For some who have had a supportive childhood, they reach out and ask for help in delaing with these issues. For others, such as Mara, who have not had the emotional support, and the familial support that most of us have had, she has reverted to relying fully on herself. It is only with more recent events, that she has gained the true family support that she in truth hadn't had. An that is why she reverted back to the self reliant Mara in VP. With DTO, she has learned that she may need some support. You aleja stated that well. But it is a learned behavior, not something that she grew up with. It goes along with her being the pragmatic soul that she is. Santee, like I said last night I agree with what you said above, mostly. The trouble is, that is an interpretation of the events in Vector Prime. It would have been better had some of those ideas actually been put in the book. RAS admits he poured his heart and soul into the book, specifically Mara. I wish he would have given us, the readers, a little hint of why Mara was acting the way she was, by explaining her reversion back to her old self. But, then again, he never read or was briefed on the events of VotF, so he wasn't aware Mara decided to cast off her old emotional shell in favor of a new openness.

Not every reader knows how people with terminal illnesses act, so explaining their actions in more detail than what he did for Mara would have enhanced our understanding of the situation. As it is we are left to guess and speculate too much, and come up with our own reasons why Mara was acting the way she was, and why we think MAS righted Mara in DTO. I am not asking to be spoon fed, I am just asking for more information and explanation for the situation directly at hand. I think RAS failed to set the situation up throughly.

To DL, I would ask that you read VP in the same light that you used to critized KJA and start that famous thread by yourself. Look at all the tired old themes and recycled ideas in VP: a Death Star like ending, the asteroid field from ESB, Luke flying his X-Wing through a cloud escaping death, Lando running his billionth mining operation. Look to see if RAS properly set the characters up by describing their situations and what they look like. The extent of his character descriptions was miniscule at best. He said Jaina looked like a young Leia, a quick cop out. He never bothered to tell us what Jacen looked like. These are teenagers, he liked to tell us that teenages change from year to year in terms of personality, the same goes for looks. If you haven't read the YJK books, you might not know what the kids look like. I will take your advice and start a sins of VP thread and repeat these things in there.

 

Ah, baiting. My favorite catch.

Instead of replying to any of that directly, I will instead suggest that big mouths are best kept shut. That said, I intend to follow the recommendation, after a fashion.

So BJ, why are you not complaining about the absence of others of the medical persuasion in VeeP? Or is it that you feel Mara should be elitist and only visit a Jedi "doctor" and shun the scientific ones? See? I am completely at a loss for an reasonable explanation for the stance, especially in BJ's case.

[This message has been edited by iravenwd (edited 03-17-2000).]

 

Re: Delwanna Solo?s question about Itrakh?s use of 3rd person reference:

Itrakh is a character created by a particularly?unique? fellow, who also happens to be a huge EU fan. This fellow, who wishes to remain anonymous, happened to really appreciate MAS?s contribution to the EU, especially pertaining to Gand society, particularly the issue of janwuine (janwuine being the right granted to Gand to speak of him or herself in the 1st person).
This fellow, also considers the Noghri to be another favorite, and is severely depressed about the lack of Noghri characterization.

Itrakh = Gand + Noghri. = Ganodghri. Childish as it may be, it is an escape from the real world. Itrakh is an escape from a hellish world full of deadlines and time constraints.
Itrakh was very surprised at all the negative attention being original warranted. Many forumites were quite hostile towards Itrakh?s 3rd person rantings. Why is it that the best intentions are often misinterpreted? Knight1192 finally solved the mystery that was Itrakh in SWEUU.

Delwanna Solo said, ?You should feel proud to write in complete sentences. Your posts are always to the point and quick to read. But why does Itrakh always speak in the 3rd person??

---not sure if that is complimentary or condescendence. Itrakh tries to remain optimistic, so thanks. In Itrakh?s line of work, being quick to the point can be a matter of life and death. Humor also helps, so Itrakh tries to apply warped humor to everything if possible, not to torture forumites, but to alleviate stress. Sorry you all have to deal with such a warped and twisted mind, but at least you have the maker to thank that you don?t have to deal with it irl.

BTW, you have all created a monster, once you told Itrakh that word processors speed things up. Now, spelling is irrrhellivvvheant.

BACK TO THE DISCUSSION:

DL, your disinformation website is quite humorous. (complement!) Itrakh has a feeling that you were sent in here to put out a fire. Itrakh just can?t picture DL as a lackey though? What gives? Oh well, don?t get used by your sources. Membership has its privileges, but also its price.

Amazing what the ranting of a few fans close to the truth will stir up. Is anyone feeling a little uncomfortable over there in DR land, DL? Or is Itrakh just a conspiracy theorist?

Itrakh beats the dead horse: Cilghal, whether DL likes it or not , is a significant addition to the SW EU. The intention of this post was to find out who else thought this omission was?bad.
Itrakh enjoyed VP, and enjoyed reading ALL EU materials. It?s the process of reading that Itrakh enjoys-immersing himself in such a wonderful place. What Itrakh does not enjoy, however, is omission of elements that seem crucial to the overall coherence of the SW EU (that and Dark Jedi of the Month and Super Weapon of the Month additions). What is worse than reading a cleverly crafted story and wondering why something so obvious was omitted?
The first thing that came to mind when Mara was sick was?where is Cilghal?

Who else thought this? That?s the intention of this post. Who wondered?
Okay Cilghal, next patient? does not imply that Cilghal should be successful in treating this disease. Think about that. If all physicians were successful, we?d have less death, and that is a fact. The important thing is that they try.

---What really happened between Mara and the best doctor of the New Republic: (information received from a reliable source? )

[doctor]: well, Mara, you seem to be suffering from an unknown condition that has a killing efficacy of 100%. Know any Jedi Healers?

[Mara]: Yup. But my stoic personality in conjunction with a discrepancy in the relevance of her character will prevent me from seeking out such treatment on account of further dissention among fans, forum residents and DR lackeys.

[doctor]: Very well then, Mara, good luck combating this unknown disease that seems to have no cure and nobody even understands its method of attack. You seem to be handling it by yourself so far us

 

Excellent post,Itrakh!

Would you care to post that story in the Vector Prime humorous version thread Forum9/HTML/001991.htmlhere ? It'd be a welcome addition.

 

Originally posted by Jades Fire:
Santee, like I said last night I agree with what you said above, mostly. The trouble is, that is an interpretation of the events in Vector Prime. It would have been better had some of those ideas actually been put in the book. RAS admits he poured his heart and soul into the book, specifically Mara. I wish he would have given us, the readers, a little hint of why Mara was acting the way she was, by explaining her reversion back to her old self. But, then again, he never read or was briefed on the events of VotF, so he wasn't aware Mara decided to cast off her old emotional shell in favor of a new openness.

Not every reader knows how people with terminal illnesses act, so explaining their actions in more detail than what he did for Mara would have enhanced our understanding of the situation. As it is we are left to guess and speculate too much, and come up with our own reasons why Mara was acting the way she was, and why we think MAS righted Mara in DTO. I am not asking to be spoon fed, I am just asking for more information and explanation for the situation directly at hand. I think RAS failed to set the situation up throughly.[/B]

Ah, but on this point we differ. You see, when translated to real life situations, the persons affected don't know it themselves. They just happen to "regress" back to the behavior that worked for them before. The people around them don't really see it, unless they have had experience with it before. It seems to me that RAS is just writing very close to RL in this situation. And that is what makes it all the more real to us the readers.

And as I said before, she really has had no true life threatening situations since she has gained a family. So she "regresses" to what worked before in similar situations. For her it was total self reliance. This linkage with luke, it is as well somethign truly new and unlike the old Mara. So she creates a wall that makes it seem as if it was totally gone.

Any more information would have to be spoon fed to be made any clearer. And I am saying this in the nicest possible way. If he put any more information in on this point, we would have felt like we were being spoonfed. At least I think you can read enough into a story to catch some gist.

 

Originally posted by Jades Fire:
Santee, like I said last night I agree with what you said above, mostly. The trouble is, that is an interpretation of the events in Vector Prime. It would have been better had some of those ideas actually been put in the book. RAS admits he poured his heart and soul into the book, specifically Mara. I wish he would have given us, the readers, a little hint of why Mara was acting the way she was, by explaining her reversion back to her old self. But, then again, he never read or was briefed on the events of VotF, so he wasn't aware Mara decided to cast off her old emotional shell in favor of a new openness.

Not every reader knows how people with terminal illnesses act, so explaining their actions in more detail than what he did for Mara would have enhanced our understanding of the situation. As it is we are left to guess and speculate too much, and come up with our own reasons why Mara was acting the way she was, and why we think MAS righted Mara in DTO. I am not asking to be spoon fed, I am just asking for more information and explanation for the situation directly at hand. I think RAS failed to set the situation up throughly.[/B]

Ah, but on this point we differ. You see, when translated to real life situations, the persons affected don't know it themselves. They just happen to "regress" back to the behavior that worked for them before. The people around them don't really see it, unless they have had experience with it before. It seems to me that RAS is just writing very close to RL in this situation. And that is what makes it all the more real to us the readers.

And as I said before, she really has had no true life threatening situations since she has gained a family. So she "regresses" to what worked before in similar situations. For her it was total self reliance. This linkage with luke, it is as well somethign truly new and unlike the old Mara. So she creates a wall that makes it seem as if it was totally gone.

Any more information would have to be spoon fed to be made any clearer. And I am saying this in the nicest possible way. If he put any more information in on this point, we would have felt like we were being spoonfed. At least I think you can read enough into a story to catch some gist.

 

I know I posted someplace around here.

 

I know I posted someplace around here.

 

That's like the pot calling the kettle black, BJ. Accusing be of being too emotionally attached to an author, when it is obvious that you're too emotionally attached to Mara Jade, TZ, and MAS, that you can't accept anyone else's take on the GFFA, not even Lucas'. You seem to imply that RAS (and GL) ruined your Star Wars.

I suppose what bothered me the most was the complete lack of chemistry between the characters, most notably the newlyweds Luke and Mara. The reader finds out in the first chapter that Mara is quite ill with a mysterious disease and Luke does nothing to try to help heal her even though The Force is the only thing that seems to work and Mara uses it to hold back the disease almost constantly. Why not combine their efforts? Maybe they tried this and it wouldn?t work? Well, the reader has no idea as it?s sadly never addressed. Luke doesn?t even suggest anything that would be obvious such as seeking help from the Jedi healer Cilghal.

Luke and Mara are not newlyweds, Mara's illness is a plot device that increases tension and will eventually turn the Vong threat into something very personal, and the Cighal issue is something that has been in the planning since Mara got sick. "Take her to Cilghal" was nothing more than your knee-jerk reaction to Mara being very sick and looking for every excuse for her to be well again. Cighal can't help and we'll learn that in a few months. Mara's cure... if one exists and does happen, will probably be something intimately tied to the Yuuzahn Vong and may actually be a key in defeating them. Mara may be weakened and dying, but she still has all the spirit she has ever had. "Fires constantly burned in Mara's green eyes."
Step back and ask yourself if you are a Star Wars fan or a Mara Jade fan. I have no clue what faults you might have found in Episode One, but if you don't like that, I fear you're just too good to be a fan.

 

Santee beat me to the punch. I agree that an explicit description of how Mara's disease had caused her character to regress back to what worked before would be "spoon-feeding" the reader. It would interrupt the natural flow of the narrative by forcing the characters to reflect in some unnatural way.

You call it interpretation, Jades Fire, as if interpretation isn't a natural part of reading. I didn't need an explicit explanation of the flip-flop in Anakin's attitude toward Kyp in Onslaught (his loyalty to Luke says it all), and I didn't need RAS to explain Mara's reaction to her disease in VP.

Vector Prime is an adult book, for Pete's sake. The kind of character "regression" you see in Mara is analogous to character changes that people experience during sickness, after an injury, or following a breakup. Most adults have either experienced that themselves, or watched a relative or friend go through it. It gives them a grounding to relate to the struggle Mara's going through.

As far as I can tell, everyone here has pretty much figured out that Mara's character shift was a reaction to her disease. For something that requires the difficult task of "interpretation," that's a pretty awesome feat.

[This message has been edited by Anakin SkySolo (edited 03-17-2000).]

 

When I asked DL if his latest version of the Cilghal saga was speculation or not, he answered, Not straight from the Horse's mouth, just something that everybody who knows anything about the publishing world, especially when series work is involved, should understand.So this is speculation then? Sorry you didn't really say one way or the other, so I'm trying to "read between the lines." If you've been keeping up with Kathy Tyer's updates, you might have seen some of this at work. Remember when she asked for permission to make a significant change to the general planned storyline? And your point is, DL?

Do you understand what parts of your original pronouncement and its subsequent variations I question? I would HOPE that the editors would modify the general outline of the NJO as the fans preferences become apparent, and it appears that they have listened in some cases. My big problem with your insider info, in addition to it coming from your famous source, is the timing. Both the timing of the ?release' of the information and the timing of the event itself. In the first instance, IF this Cilghal fix has been planned, as you say, since before VP was published, why wait till now to tell us? Why not tell us when we first wondered where Cilghal was? As for the timing of the decision to fix the Cilghal business, something just doesn't add up. You keep insisting that the decision was made before VP hit the shelves, before the fans could know that Cilghal was not in it. OK, for the moment, I'll agree that this might have been the case. As you said (paraphrasing here)just because RAS was ignorant of Cilghal, that wouldn't prevent some editor who did know about Cilghal deciding the story would be better served with a meeting in a later book. Then please answer these two questions,(1) Why wasn't RAS told about this before he started giving all those after the fact stories about her absence? Maybe the fan reaction caught the folks at Delrey by surprise and they didn't have time to tell RAS about their plans before that first chat, but surely they knew that the fans were wondering about Cilghal by the time the interview with Helen happened (if Ms Shapiro reads her mail, she knew). I KNOW that authors don't know much about the stories that follow theirs, but in a case like this, where an author is being taken to task for something in his book that will be taken care of in a later book, shouldn't he have been given some solid information to tell the fans instead of being left to make up his own stories about what might happen. I don't mean he needed to know that author so and so was going to cover the meeting in book such and such, but if he could have simply been able to say something like, "Yes, I didn't know about Cilghal, from what I've learn about her since, I don't think she would have fit in my story anyway, but I do know that one of the other authors is planning on covering that aspect of Mara's illness in one of the future books." He wouldn't have been giving away plot secrets and he wouldn't have sounded like an excuse-making nerfherder.

The second question is, IF the info you have dispensed is true, WHY did Delrey choose such a silly way to release it and why wait till now? If this has been planned since before VP's release, why was it kept secret during all the initial flap about Cilghal? Why wait till now, why wait till after Onslaught? It just doesn't make sense.
I think what really happened is Delrey didn't realize how many fans expected Cilghal to be consulted (see all the reasons Bror Jace, Jades Fire, Itrakh and others have stated). They realized that Cilghal was missed and really should be added. So sometime after VP hit the shelves, maybe even after the fan reactions to RAS's interview with Helen, they decided to add her. (Perhaps someone had suggested earlier that she be added, but the suits didn't see, at first, the necessity of adding such a scene) I think the decision to go ahead with a Cilghal/Mara scene was made rather recently. Just my speculation, you understand, my sources hav

 

Dew, you'll just have to take my word for it. Why was RAS not told about Cilghal? I don't know. As Helen pointed out before, he didn't want to know anything about the novels following his. He wants to read them as fans like us. He was probably "out of the loop" before he even turned in the final draft of VP. Ask Mike how much he knows beyond his novel, how much KT knows beyond her novel. Probably nothing more than the general storyline. RAS has almost the entire plot, as well as several plot twists, hiding in VP. Does that mean he knows everything? I doubt it. This is a series, not unlike the old "Quest for Darkness" pass along story, only on a much larger scale. RAS didn't know about Cilghal, someone else did. We'll see. Then we'll see if "the episode" is because of fan outcry, or if it was something that has been planned.
Then again, I'm sure that once it becomes evident that Cilghal can do nothing for Mara, there will be a huge fan outcry to make Mara visit master herbalist Momaw Nadon for "alternative medicine".

[This message has been edited by Darth Ludicrous (edited 03-18-2000).]

 

a test...