CT An ESB plot hole?

CLICKY

 

That IS funny.

 

Well put. Back around 1980 the first two SW films came in for a lot of flak. According to those who pretended to know such things, these new blockbusters were dumbing down people's tastes in movies. The implication being that if you liked The Empire Strikes Back, you couldn't also like The Godfather, because you would no longer recognize a great movie.

As you say, anakinfansince1983, the height of arrogance. And worth remembering.

I completely agree. And I also grew up on the O-OT, with the first movie being my initiation one Monday night on Norwegian broadcasting in 1985. Back then, when I watched the rest, I soon picked Return Of The Jedi as my fave. It's not anymore, but there was something in that film that hooked me on Star Wars for life and ensured that I was still around and interested in 1999, when that part of the story finally roled out.

I only expected a new take on Star Wars. My honest opinion is that I got it.

Of course, critical and fan opinion as always been divided. First it was those who liked A New Hope and those who didn't. The former group then splintered into those who liked Empire and those who didn't. That former group splintered into those who liked Jedi and those who didn't. And so on in 1999. It's pretty much inevitable.

Well, if as you say, he's there to piss Luke off, it does make sense. He might not think he'll trap him that way, but if he does, after using Solo to make a little more sure it's not lethal, that block of carbonite will guarantee that Luke doesn't cause any trouble on the way to the Emperor. Vader can just put his feet up on the dashboard and enjoy the ride home.

 

Basically he was toying with Luke, the way all super villains do in movies when they obviously have the upper hand. The same reason James Bond survives every film, because the egocentric villain can't help but to toy with him when he could just kill him outright. Vader was waging a psychological war against Luke, seeking to turn him by leading him into the anger and rage of the darkside.

 

Here's another "plot hole" (or minor inconsistency) I just thought of: how did Vader know with such surety that the Rebels and Luke were on Hoth? I mean, sure, Piett believed it was worth investigating, but Ozzel's right in saying that it could be smugglers -- they have no way of knowing at the time. Yet, Vader seems certain that the Rebels are there. How does he know? I guess you could attribute it to the Force, but it seems odd that he could pinpoint Luke's location there, but didn't realize Obi-Wan was on Tatooine despite the fact that he knew the man was alive (hence the "We meet again at last.") I always found that a bit odd.

 

By this point Vader has been busted -- the Emperor changed the course of events with the hologram conversation on the Executor. Up until that point, Vader was trying to sway Luke to his side and they would overthrow the Emperor. That's why he played dumb with the Emperor about the "Son of Skywalker" even though he clearly knew who he was when he was looking for him on Hoth.

Now, the Emperor is wise to Luke and Vader has to do what his master wants -- and that is to capture Luke and bring him to the Emperor. When that plan falls apart as Luke battles his way out, Vader goes back to his original hidden agenda in a desperate move -- to have Luke join him.

"Luke, you can destroy the Emperor. He has foreseen this. It is your destiny! Join me, and together, we can rule the galaxy as father and son!"

Clearly there is no triumvirate being planned otherwise he wouldn't talk about destroying the Emperor and he'd have said "together, with the Emperor, we can rule the galaxy as father and son and possibly grandfather-ish kind of old guy mentor in a sort of way", and despite the use of the phrase "he will join us or die" the Emperor doesn't plan a threesome either, it's polite window dressing. Three will enter, two will leave, there's never any other plan.

The "rule of two" is never explicitly stated in the OT but it's clearly at work.

See, the thing is that Vader is following two plans. When the Emperor isn't looking, he's pursuing his own agenda to lure his son to be his apprentice and together they will kill the Emperor. When the Emperor gets wise to Luke, Vader has to at least appear to be following orders.

In the beginning of ESB the Emperor doesn't know yet and Vader is pursuing his own agenda. He's busted by the Emperor in the hologram session and the only time from that point on he pursues his own plans is at the end of the fight with Luke, in a move of desperation. After that, especially in his actions in ROTJ, he is resigned to his fate as the obsolete apprentice and knows that the Emperor plans to replace him with Luke or Luke will die in the process, and Vader can't just stand up to the Emperor. Now you know why he was so depressed and neutered in ROTJ.

 

Even if Vader envisioned some sort of triumvirate with this statement, he couldn't have expected it to be permanent given the Emperor's nature. He had to have known that Luke would either replace him or be eliminated somewhere along the line. There can only be one right hand man.

 

I know, many people say "they're just droids" but clearly he BUILT 3PO and R2 was his sidekick in the clone wars he should know them. It bugs me a lot. Especially since they treat the droids kindly in the PT. It's a problem and you can only try to rationalize it.

 

I'm sure you've seen the Family Guy spoofs

Leia/Lois: May I have everyone's attention please? We're evacuating into outer space with literally infinite directions in which to flee. However, we have decided that our transports will travel directly towards the fleet of stormtroopers. Any questions?

Rebel 1 (Alec Sulkin): Yeah, um, is there someone from the military we can talk to, a man perhaps?

 

Hahahahaha........yup

 

There is some merit to challenge that.

In ANH Obi-Wan and R2 are implied to have some past, though one as strong as it turns out to be in the PT would have been hard to fathom.

Obi-Wan and Anakin were master-apprentice and thus if Obi-Wan knew R2 then Anakin would too.

From the beginning the entire saga was meant to be told through the eyes of the two droids, especially as they're the only ones in a multigenerational saga that wouldn't age or die. Therefore it's logical to assume the droids know all the major characters.

Astro-mech droids were being plugged into ships in the OT so it was reasonable to assume they were used similarly before the fall. And indeed they were. Anakin being a star pilot thus likely would have had such a relationship as Luke had to R2. In fact he did, and with R2.

 

What they say:
He could be a powerful ally
he could make a great asset
He will join us or die

What they mean:
I will replace you with him
I will kill you and take your place

Obviously they can't SAY openly what they want. There is an expected subterfuge with the sith, both participants know it. They know their conversations are filled with lies and misdirection and veiled subtext. For example, the Emperor isn't stupid, when he calls Vader on the carpet over Luke, he's figured out what Vader is doing behind his back.

The only one in the saga surprised by this treachery is Dooku. And even he had treacherous plans of his own (Grievous and if you count it, Ventress).

Even if you don't think the rule of two existed in ESB, it clearly did three years later in RoTJ. That's why Vader is depressed and resigned to his fate. That's why the Emperor is shutting him out, telling him to wait on the Executor (there are even deleted scenes where the Emperor's royal guards deny Vader access to the Emperor's elevator). Clearly distancing himself from Vader, making room for the new guy.

That's also why when the talk of taking his father's place comes up, Vader isn't like "whaaaaaaaa?". It's not a surprise, it's par for the course, both sides expect the treachery. Vader knows he is being replaced. He expects, and possibly wants, Luke to kill him. He does not expect him to lay down his arms.

 

To be fair to the prequels, babbling Senate proceedings, decapitations, and an immolation are hardly kid friendly.

 

Thus the way he acted towards Luke on Endor. Much more somber and even resigned than in ESB.