PT An Essay on Palpatine/Sidious in ROTS

Eh? I don't think Obi-Wan thinks of Palpatine as a kindly Chancellor, if one takes TCW and the EU novels into account. I believe he's being respectful. He's a gentleman. He wouldn't openly confront or disagree with Palpatine like Mace Windu would, and, of course, Palpatine is pretending to be a hostage. Anakin is shown not to hide his friendship with "Uncle" Palpatine, though I do like it in the films and TCW when he calls him "Your Excellency." It shows he has a ton of respect for Palpatine that the other Jedi lack, even though they hide it. To be fair, anyway, Obi-Wan bows to a lot of people. He bowed to Padme after not seeing her for a decade in AOTC.

Well, the ROTS novelization by Stover was one of my favorite Star Wars reads. I read it before I saw the film and I especially liked the conversations between Anakin and Palpatine, including that convo they have when Sidious reveals himself. Obi-Wan, Padme, and Yoda's dialogue was wonderful. Sidious saying, "It's morning in the Republic!" was great. Stover certainly painted Dooku as sociopathic and a speciesist/racist, something I'm sure that Sidious encouraged as one of his mind games. Anyway, Sidious truly comes off as the incarnation of the dark side's temptation in the novelization. He truly was the Shadow, a beast to stir Anakin's inner dragon. It was as though he was emanating with darkness throughout the piece, and I can see why McDiarmid enjoyed the role.

 

Good call I guess, it's been years since I read the novelisation, and I don't watch TCW. Was going more by just ROTS, particularly the opening act, where Obi-Wan certainly thinks of him as non-force-sensitive and maybe naive about that sort of thing.
But yes, he mildly warns Anakin about politicians generally when discussing Palpatine in AOTC, and certainly grows much more suspicious of him in ROTS. I just think he didn't dream of the depth of their situation until late in the game.

The novel was really good. I am a little surprised Lucas didn't give us more Dooku in ROTS, but maybe he felt it brought the focus away from Palpatine as the big bad.

 

This compilation and analysis goes a long way in highlighting the brilliance in the script. Every word almost appear to be thoughtfully placed to elicit double meanings, foreshadowings and homages. It's an extremely effective script which is also packed with philosophy and world building. Lucas is not the greatest writer of catchy dialogue, but certainly he knows how to get the story he wants on screen. He could have taken so many shortcuts too. Instead he chose the daring and the result is an incredibly rich piece of art. It may not hold the universal love the OT does, but it is unique and original.

 

One last extension of the original post. I'm going to include AOTC, because although Palpatine makes only one appearance as "Sidious" in the film, there is some implied sneakiness going on in his general scenes.​

Attack of the Clones​

INT. SENATE CHAMBER - DAY
The vast rotunda is buzzing with chatter. MAS AMEDDA, the Supreme Chancellor's majordomo, tries to quiet things down as PALPATINE confers with an AIDE, UV GIZEN, riding a small one man floating scooter.

MAS AMEDDA
Order! We shall have order! The motion for the Republic to commission an army takes precedent, and that is what we will vote on at this time.

Everything quiets down. The AIDE disperses, and SUPREME CHANCELLOR PALPATINE steps to the podium.

PALPATINE
...My esteemed colleagues, excuse me... I have just received some tragic and disturbing news. Senator Amidala of the Naboo system... Has been assassinated! (Seems implied, to me, that Palpatine knew it was his apprentice behind it.)

There is a shock silence in the vast arena.

PALPATINE
(continued)
This grievous blow is especially personal to me. Before I became Chancellor, I served Amidala when she was Queen. She was a great leader who fought for justice, not only in this honourable assembly, but also on her home planet. She

was so loved she could have been elected queen for life. (One of many parallels between Amidala and Sidious) She believed in public service, and she fervently believed in democracy. Her death is a great loss to us all. We will all mourn
her as a relentless champion of freedom... and as a dear friend. (Seems in the script Palpatine was trying to use Amidala's "death" to get the Senate behind the war.)
There is a moment of silence. ASK AAK, the SENATOR of MALASTARE, moves his pod into the centre of the arena.

SENATOR ASK AAK
How many more Senators will die before this civil strife ends? We must confront these rebels now, and they need an army to do it.

A second pod moves into the centre of the area with DARSANA, the AMBASSADOR OF GLEE ANSELM.

AMBASSADOR DARSANA
Why weren't the Jedi able to stop this assassination? We are no longer safe, under their protection. (Plays into the Senate's growing distrust of the Jedi.)

Senator ORN FREE TAA swings forward in his pod.

ORN FREE TAA
The Republic needs more security now! Before it comes to war. (Palpatine has the Senate doing his work, initiating war.)

PALPATINE
Must I remind the Senator from Malastare that negotiations are continuing with the separatists. Peace is our objective here... not war.

The SENATORS yell pro and con. MAS AMEDDA tries to calm things down. SENATOR PADME AMIDALA, with CAPTAIN TYPHO, JAR JAR, and DORME, manoeuvre her pod into the centre of the vast arena.


AMIDALA
My noble colleagues, I concur with the Supreme Chancellor. At all costs, we do not want war!

The Senate goes quiet, then there is an outburst of cheering and applause.

PALPATINE
It is with great surprise and joy the chair recognises the Senator from Naboo, Padmé Amidala.

PADMÉ
Less than an hour ago, an assassination attempt was made against my life. One of my bodyguards and six others were ruthlessly and senselessly murdered. I was the target but, more importantly, I believe this security measure before

you, was the target. I have led the opposition to build an army... but there is someone in this body who will stop at nothing to assure it's passage...

Many of the SENATORS boo and yell at SENATOR AMIDALA.

PADMÉ
(continuing)
I warn you, if you vote to create this army, war will follow. I have experienced the misery of war first-hand; I do not wish to do it again.

There is sporadic yelling for and against her statements.

PADMÉ
Wake up, Senators... you must wake up! If you offer the separatists violence, they can only show us violence in return! Many will lose their lives. All will lose their freedom. This decision could very well destroy the very foundation of our great

Republic. (Anakin kind of comes at it from the opposite angle in ROTS with "I think this war is destroying the principles of the Republic". Padme echoes her words here with "Did you ever consider we may be on the wrong side?") I pray you do
not let fear push you into a disastrous decision. Vote down this security measure, which is nothing less than a declaration of war! Does anyone here want that? I cannot believe they do.

There is an undercurrent of booing... and groaning. SENATOR ORN FREE TAA moves his pod next to AMIDALA.

ORN FREE TAA
My motion to defer the vote must be dealt with first. That is the rule of law.

AMIDALA looks angry and frustrated. PALPATINE gives her a sympathetic look.


PALPATINE
Due to the lateness of the hour and the seriousness of this motion, we will take up these matters tomorrow. Until then, the Senate stands adjourned.

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INT. CHANCELLOR'S OFFICE - DAYCHANCELLOR PALPATINE sits behind his desk with TWO RED-CLAD ROYAL GUARDS on either side of the door. YODA, PLOT KOON, KI-AD-MUNDI, and MACE WINDU sit across from him.

PALPATINE
I don't know how much longer I can hold off the vote, my friends. More and more star systems are joining the separatists.
(Kind of inverts TPM a little, with the vote being held off, according to Palpatine. In TPM he is accelerating plans to invade
Naboo and get the treaty signed, and manipulates Padme into calling for a vote of no confidence in Valorum in the Senate.)


MACE WINDU
If they do break away -

PALPATINE
No! I will not let that happen! (Pov truth.)

MACE WINDU
But if they do, you must realise there aren't enough Jedi to protect the Republic. We are keepers of the peace, not soldiers. (Always liked this line.)

PALPATINE
Master Yoda, do you think it will really come to war?

YODA closes his eyes.


YODA
Worse than war, I fear... Much worse.

PALPATINE
What?

MACE WINDU
What do you sense, Master?

YODA Impossible to see ... The Dark Side clouds everything. But this I am sure of - (opens his eyes) Do their duty the Jedi will. (This and Mace's line later in the movie "I think it is time we informed the Senate our ability to use the force has diminished." imply the Jedi's power is waning, inverting the growing strength of the dark side. The shroud of the dark side is heavily at play in the PT - a small example is a similar response to Palpatine's true identity in Ep2 and Ep3...
- AOTC - DOOKU: Hundreds of Senators are now under the influence of a Dark Lord of the Sith called... Darth Sidious.
OBI-WAN: I don't believe you.
- ROTS - OBI-WAN: Chancellor Palpatine is the Sith Lord we've been looking for! After the death of Count Dooku, Anakin became his new apprentice.
PADME: I don't believe you! I can't. )


A muted BUZZER SOUNDS. A hologram of an AIDE, DAR WAC, appears on the Chancellor's desk.

DAR WAC
The loyalist committee has arrived, my Lord.

PALPATINE
Send them in.

They all stand as SENATOR AMIDALA, CAPTAIN TYPHO, JAR JAR, MAS AMEDDA, DORME, and SENATORS BAIL ORGANA, HOROX RYYDER and ORN FREE TAA enter the office. YODA and MACE WINDU move to greet the SENATOR, YODA taps AMIDALA with his cane.

YODA
With you the force is strong...young Senator. To see you alive brings warm feeling to my heart. (Of course a hundred times more sincere than Palpatine's relief.)
PADMÉ Thank you, Master Yoda. Do you have any idea who was behind the attack?

MACE WINDU Our intelligence points to disgruntled spice miners, on the moons of Naboo.

PADMÉ

I don't wish to disagree but I think that Count Dooku was behind it.


There is a stir of surprise.

MACE WINDU You know, M'Lady, Count Dooku was once a Jedi. He wouldn't assassinate anyone, it is not in his character. (Sign of misled Jedi pride I think. Plus Mace will attempt to "assassinate" Palpatine, metres from where he is standing, in the next film.)

KI-ADI-MUNDI
He is a political idealist, not a murderer.

YODA
In dark times nothing is what it appears to be, but the fact remains Senator, in grave danger you are.

PALPATINE gets up, walks to the window, and looks out at the vast city.

PALPATINE
Count Dooku has always avoided any kind of conflict. It appears he has no desire to start a war. (Palpatine and Dooku both kind of give each other alibis here, as I will explain in a later scene.) Why would he kill you? To what end?

PADMÉ
I don't know, but everything in my being tells me he was behind it...

After gazing out of the window for several moments Palpatine turns to Mace.

PALPATINE Master Jedi, may I suggest that the Senator be placed under the protection of your graces. (This is where Palpatine does something that works twofold, and I don't think it is entirely obvious to the audience. Firstly, he knows Obi-Wan is Anakin's Master, so it isn't that much of a stretch to say he is likely trying to get Anakin and Padme interacting, knowing it will make Anakin vulnerable for manipulation in the future. But just as importantly, notice he is setting in motion the fact that Padme will be off-world for the GAR vote. He is essentially removing his biggest obstacle to the Republic approving an army and essentially declaring war on the Separatists. Furthermore, Jar Jar will stand in for Padme when she is gone, and...
surprise, surprise it is Jar jar who he later manipulates into calling for the Senate to grant Palpatine executive powers.)
BAIL ORGANA Do you think that is a wise use of manpower during these stressful times?

PADMÉ Chancellor, if I may comment, I do not believe the...

PALPATINE..."situation is that serious."No, but I do, Senator.

PADMÉ
Chancellor, please! I don't want any more guards!

PALPATINEI realise all too well that additional security might be disruptive for you, but perhaps someone you are familiar with... an old friend like... Master Kenobi...

PALPATINE nods to MACE WINDU, who nods back.

MACE WINDU
That's possible. He has just returned from a Border dispute on Ansion. (Clueless.)

PALPATINE
You must remember him, M'Lady... he watched over you during the blockade conflict.

PADMÉ
This is not necessary, Chancellor.

PALPATINE
Do it for me, M'Lady, please. I will rest easier. We had a big scare today. The thought of losing you is unbearable.

AMIDALA sighs as the JEDI get up to leave.

MACE WINDU
I will have Obi-Wan report to you immediately, M'Lady.

YODA leans into her ear.

YODA Too little about yourself you worry, Senator, and too much about politics. Be mindful of your danger, Padmé. Accept our help.

As the JEDI leave the office, PALPATINE continues to pace behind his desk.

PALPATINE
I will not like this Republic, that has stood for over a thousand
years, be split in two. (This was moved to the start of the scene. It's a pretty meaningful pov truth; he indeed "unites" everyone under an oppressive Empire for security, as a result of the war he is beginning here.)
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OBI-WAN
What about Senator Amidala. She will still need protecting.
YODA
Handle that your Padawan will.
MACE
Anakin. Escort the Senator back to her home planet of Naboo, she'll be safer there. And don't use registered transport. Travel as refugees.
ANAKIN
As the leader of the opposition it will be very very difficult to get Senator Amidala to leave the Capital.
YODA
Until caught this killer is, our judgement she must respect.
MACE
Anakin, go to the Senate and ask Chancellor Palpatine to speak with her about this matter. (The Jedi don't know it, but they are doing exactly what Palpatine predicted.)
...



(Interestingly, Anakin/Vader has just one scene with Palpatine/The Emperor in the middle movie of each trilogy.)
PALPATINE
I will talk with her. Senator Amidala won't refuse an executive order. I know her well enough to assure you of that. (Padme as the catalyst for Anakin's fall, their son as the catalyst for Vader's redemption. It is also interesting that Palpatine knows Padme listens to authority. This is before she loses faith in the Republic/Empire.)

ANAKIN
Thankyou, your excellency.
PALPATINE
And so, they’ve finally given you an assignment. Your patience has paid off.
ANAKIN
Your guidance more than my patience.
PALPTINE
You don't need guidance Anakin. In time you will learn to trust your feelings. Then you will be invincible.
PALPATINE
I have said it many times. You are the most gifted Jedi I have ever met.
ANAKIN
Thankyou your excellency.
PALPATINE
I see you becoming greatest of all Jedi Anakin. Even more powerful than Master Yoda.
(THE EMPEROR: He could destroy us.)

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BAIL ORGANA
The Commerce Guilds are preparing for war... there can be no doubt of that.
PALPATINE
Count Dooku must have made a treaty with them.
MACE WINDU
We must stop them soon before they're fully ready.
SENATOR ASK AAK
The debate is over, we need that clone army now!
BAIL ORGANA
Unfortunately, the debate is not over. The Senate will never be able to approve the use of that army before the separatists attack.
Mas Amedda, who had been silent up until now suddenly speaks up.
MAS AMEDDA
This is a crisis! If the Senate votes the Chancellor emergency powers, he could approve the use of the army in a minute. (Palpatine mind-trick?)
PALPATINE
Please, please, I don't wish to have emergency powers. That's too extreme a solution. It's akin to a dictatorship. We must rely on the Jedi. Master Yoda, how many are available to go to Geonosis? (Asking a question he knows they will answer "not enough".)
MACE WINDU and YODA look at one another.
YODA
Two Hundred,... less or more.
BAIL ORGANA
With all due respect for the Jedi Order, two hundred will be no match for hundreds of thousands of battle droids.
MACE WINDU
Patience. We should wait for Obi- Wan to report back. We don't know that Count Dooku has made a treaty with the Corporate Alliance, it's speculation.
SENATOR ASK AAK
But we must prepare for the worst. I'm going to propose a motion granting emergency powers to the Chancellor at the next session. We must not wait!
PALPATINE
Out of the question, Senator! You and I are too closely aligned. The issue will become partisan and debates will begin. The proposal must come from a neutral source.
MAS AMEDDA If only Senator Amidala were here. (Again, mind-trick? And Jar-Jar fails to see Padme is the last person who would propose it.)
JAR JAR steps forward from the back of the group.
JAR JAR
Supreme Chancellor... my august colleagues, I would be proud to propose the motion in question. This is a grave situation, and I'm sure Senator Amidala, and the Queen of Naboo would agree.
SENATOR ASK AAK
Thank you, Representative Binks.
Silence. Then PALPATINE sighs deeply.
PALPATINE
If called upon, I will serve. But it will be the saddest day of my life. (Lol)
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Last scene I'm gonna do.



INT. GEONOSIS, CORRIDORS - DAY ANAKIN and PADME enter the stalagmite city. They stop, looking around in wonder at the emptiness.

PADME (in a low voice)
It's empty! They start forward. As they pass, the surface of the pillars seems to pulse slowly and move. High above WINGED CREATURES grow from the pillars and detach themselves.

INT. GEONOSIS, CENTRAL SQUARE - DAY ANAKIN and PADME cross the square, reaching the middle. They stop suddenly as FOUR GEONOSIANS grabs them. ANAKIN reaches for his lightsaber.

PADME
Wait!

TWENTY WINGED GEONOSIANS carrying weapons alight on the flagstones in front of them. The GEONOSIANS part, and COUNT DOOKU appears. He bows courteously.

COUNT DOOKU
Senator Amidala, I've heard so much about you.

PADMÉ
Count Dooku, I assume.
COUNT DOOKU
I'm delighted to meet you at last. We have a great deal to discuss, Senator. I hope you can keep your young Jedi under control.
PADMÉ
Don't worry he's housebroken.
INT. CONFERENCE ROOM (GEONOSIS) - DAY COUNT DOOKU sits at a large conference table with PADME on the far side. ANAKIN stands behind her with FOUR GEONOSIANS GUARDS standing behind him. JANGO FETT stands behind COUNT DOOKU, and SIX GEONOSIAN GUARDS stand behind him.
PADMÉ
You are holding a Jedi Knight, Obi- Wan Kenobi. I am formally requesting you turn him over to me, now.
DOOKU
He has been convicted of espionage, Senator, and will be executed. In just a few hours, I believe. COUNT DOOKU smiles.
PADMÉ
He is an officer of the Republic. You can't do that.
DOOKU
We don't recognise the Republic here, Senator. But if Naboo were to join our Alliance, I could easily hear your plea for clemency. ANAKIN grabs his lightsaber but doesn't turn it on.
PADMÉ
And if I don't join your rebellion, I assume this Jedi with me will also die?
DOOKU
I don't wish to make you to join our cause against your will, Senator, but you are a rational, honest representative of your people and I assume you want to do what's in their best interest. Aren't you fed up with the corruption, the bureaucrats, the hypocrisy of it all?.. Aren't you? Be honest, Senator.
PADMÉ
The ideals are still alive, Count, even if the institution is failing.
DOOKU
You believe in the same ideals we believe in! The same ideals we are striving to make prominent.
PADMÉ
If what you say is true, you should stay in the Republic and help Chancellor Palpatine put things right.
DOOKU
The Chancellor means well, M'Lady but he is incompetent. (The alibis I talked of earlier, Palpatine and Dooku playing innocent to each others true identity. However, Dooku thinks he will be a part of the Empire when the Separatists are eliminated, yet doesn't know he will take the fall for the war along with the Jedi and the rest of the Separatists. He is conveniently killed by Anakin in front of Sidious on Sidious's orders, and the Chancellor is made Emperor to applause from a mostly adoring Senate, with everyone besides Palpatine as the scapegoat.) He has promised to cut the bureaucracy, but the bureaucrats are stronger than ever, no? Senator, the Republic cannot be fixed. It is time to start over. The democratic process in the Republic is a sham, a shell game played on the voters. It will not be long before the cult of greed, called the Republic, will lose even the pretext of democracy and freedom.
PADMÉ
I cannot believe that. I will not forsake all I have honoured and worked for and betray the Republic. I know of your treaties with the Trade Federation, the Commerce Guilds, and the others, Count. What is happening here is not government that has been bought out by business... it's business becoming government!
DOOKU
Are you willing to betray your Jedi friends? Without your co-operation I can do nothing to stop their execution.
PADMÉ
What is to happen to me? Am I to be executed also?
DOOKU
I wouldn't think of such an offence. But, there are individuals who have a strong interest in your demise, M'lady. It has nothing to do with politics, I'm afraid. It's purely personal, and they have already paid great sums to have you assassinated. I'm sure they will push hard to have you included in the executions. I'm sorry but if you are not going to co-operate, I must turn you over to the Geonosians for justice. I've done all I can for you.
JANGO FETT moves over to ANAKIN.
JANGO FETT
I'll take that weapon. ANAKIN hesitates.
DOOKU
You may cause a lot of bloodshed, my young Jedi, but you will not escape.
PADMÉ
Anakin...
ANAKIN hands his lightsaber over to JANGO FETT.
Most of the script is pretty self-explanatory. It is better than the finished film IMO.
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Some Palpatine relevant stuff I have posted elsewhere...

"We will watch your career with great interest."
By episode 2 Anakin is saying some very Palpatine-esque things.

Palpatine: "I see you becoming greatest of all Jedi Anakin." ... Anakin: "I will be the most powerful Jedi ever!"


Padme: "Sounds an awful lot like a dictatorship to me."
Anakin: "Well... If it works."


Obi-Wan: "The Senate is expected to vote more executive powers to the Chancellor today."
Anakin: "Well that can only mean less deliberating and more action. Is that bad? It will make it easier to end this war."
Palpatine: "When the Jedi learn what has transpired here they will kill us, along with all the Senators."
Anakin: "I agree. The Council's next move will be against the Senate."
Palpatine: "There are times when we all must endure amendments to the Constitution in the name of security." ...much later...
"You have restored peace and justice to the galaxy."
...
Anakin: "I have brought peace, justice, freedom and security to my new Empire!"
Obi-Wan: "Your new Empire?!?"
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Qui-gon's death puts Anakin with a mentor arguably not suited for an apprentice like him. Anakin also never experiences Yoda's tutelage as a child, and even when Anakin goes to Yoda for advice Yoda only
tells him what he doesn't want to hear. I don't doubt Yoda's teachings would be adequate for most Jedi, but for Anakin it is too little too late.
Something interesting I observed is Sidious's/Yoda's relevance to a mirror between Luke and Anakin.
When Anakin kills Dooku (by beheading him) Palpatine (the devil) is there to justify it with a reminder - "It wasn't the first time Anakin. Remember what you told me about your mother and the sandpeople." When Luke faces the Vader apparition (and himself) in the cave, notice it is again a beheading, and later Yoda (the god) reminds him "Remember your failure at the cave!" I wonder if it was intentional, this very specific opposite pull.

Plus, Anakin beheads the first Tusken, and Mace is killed trying to behead Palpatine.
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Palpatine states in ROTS "The Sith and the Jedi are similar in almost every way". There is a lot to the current six movies that actually backs this statement up.


- Mentoring in pairs is common to both Orders. The prequels begin with a significant Jedi pairing; Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, and a significant Sith pairing; Sidious and Maul. The trilogy ends with two remaining pairs also; Yoda and Obi-Wan ("In your solitude on Tatooine, training I have for you.") and Sidious and Vader (who is now broken and subservient to Sidious, for now).



- Initially, both orders were technically aligned with the Republic (albeit falsely in the case of Palpatine), and were centered on Coruscant. The Jedi Council "rule" from atop the Jedi Temple spire in the PT, where The Emperor rules from atop the DS2 spire in ROTJ.



- Both orders strive to attain (morally contrasting versions of) peace...

Mace: "We're keepers of the peace, not soldiers."
/ Palpatine: "And we shall have... peace."
/ Obi-Wan: "For over a thousand generations the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic."



- Furthermore, the Jedi and the Sith both seek to end the war through the Seperatists' defeat, although to be fair the war is the result of Sith manipulation in the first place. There is a relative moral grey-area regarding the Jedi fighting a war at all in the first place; being aligned with a failing Republic and leading a Clone army into war can arguably be a sign that the Jedi were betraying their own principles. It is never flat out stated in the films, but it seems implied that this was largely a part of their downfall.



- Both Qui-Gon (in TPM) and Palpatine (in ROTS) represent a father-figure interested in Anakin because of his high midichlorian count.
Qui-Gon: "The force is unusually strong with him, that much is certain."
/ Sidious: "The force is strooong with you!"
Qui-Gon: "Our meeting was not a coincidence. Nothing happens by accident."
/ Sidious: "Your fulfilling your destiny, Anakin."

Qui-Gon gives Anakin a lesson on midis, and the symbiotic balance between the lifeforms and Jedi (ie, a Jedi selflessly being used by the force). Palpatine gives Anakin a very Sithly and contrasting lesson on midis; how they can be manipulated (selfishly) to gain power over life and death.
Qui-Gon also speculates that Anakin was conceived by the force, and inversely in ROTS, Palpatine implies The Sith may have been involved in Anakin's creation.
Interestingly, Anakin starts the trilogy with only a mother, and ends the trilogy with only Palpatine (his "father"). Qui-Gon, the father Anakin truly needed, of
course dies before he can properly train Anakin.



- Obi-Wan is knighted as a Jedi by Yoda, after killing Maul.
/ Anakin is knighted as a Sith by Sidious, after two arguably ritualistic killings; the previous Sith apprentice Dooku, and a Jedi Master, Mace Windu.
Importantly, Obi-Wan killed Maul from a defeated and helpless position, whereas Dooku was killed defenseless and in cold-blood. So the parallel between the Jedi and Sith, while apparent, still paints the Jedi as more righteous.





Palpatine mirroring and inverting OT era Obi-Wan.
Anakin joins a Sith Master (Sidious) / Luke joins a Jedi Master (Obi-Wan).
-eg, Palpatine: "Your fulfilling your destiny Anakin." (by joining him)/ Obi-Wan: "Your destiny lies along a different path from mine." (By letting him go)
-eg, Palpatine: "Of course you should, but you're not entirely sure of their intentions." / Obi-Wan: "You -must do what you think is right, of course."
-eg, Palpatine: "Become my apprentice. Learn to use the dark side of the force." / Obi-Wan: "Learn about the force, Luke!"
-eg, Sidious puts a healing hand on Vader after Obi-Wan dismembers Vader and, broken-hearted, abandons him
/ Obi-Wan puts a healing hand on Luke when the Tuskens knock him out, the beginning of a second chance at training a Skywalker.

 

One of the best scenes of Palpatine in the PT, well one of many, many scenes that is when he tells Anakin to kill Dooku in ROTS. I really felt how sinister he can truly be. When he said "kill him. kill him now" I love the way he portrays that scene. He does it with a smile on his face. He is a bad *** and he knows it. There is absolutely no shame in his game at all. As far as cinematic villain's go, Sidious/Palpatine is at the top of my list. Along with Vader and Davey Jones.

 

Agreed.
Lucas is a genius I think. As you said, he could have had a little help with snappier dialogue and characterisation, but the script shows how rich the film is.

 

Yes, and the type of genius it can take a while to understand. Initially I was disappointed with the PT because it differed so much from the OT. Now I love it for exactly that reason. It's still 100% Star Wars, but yet so different.

 

thanks, I read it all.
would like something like this for the last anakin/padme talk at mustafar

 

Thanks for doing this. It's really an invaluable asset to have all of this analysis cataloged in this thread. I'm sure I'll be referencing it in the future.

I especially enjoy your analysis of Palpatine's dialogue. Virtually every line of his is ironic or mirrors other lines from the films or shows duplicity or true on one level but a falsehood on another. Villains are typically more "engaging" than heroes are, and the subtleties and nuances of Palpatine's dialogue and MacDiarmid's performance in the PT moved him past Vader as my favorite villain of the Saga. Actually his villainy helps humanize Vader more.

What really sets Palpatine apart is his intelligence. Yoda is wise, but there is no one on Palpatine's level as a chess master. A thought that occurred to me while reading this is that it might be an interesting twist to have a very intelligent hero in the ST. We haven't seen hero like that in Star Wars yet. Palpatine triumphs in the PT not through his power in the Force, but through his wits and through manipulation. It might be an interesting twist to have physically superior adversaries who ultimately fail in the ST because they are outsmarted by a weaker but more clever good guy. That might be an interesting way to mirror episodes I-III in episodes VII-IX.

 

Brilliantly done. Loved the stuff on Palpatine, Anakin and Mace in that climactic scene and who is the traitor!

Also agreed on Order 66, a chillingly clever plan on Palpatine's part. I too prefer the film canon - the clones are just bred without much free-will and obey orders unquestionally. And the Supreme Chancellor with all those emergency powers is the highest authority and so they clones do not hesitate to execute their Jedi Generals.

 

Thanx.

Yeah. I think the creepy quick turn in the Clones works pretty well.
I also noticed a perhaps implied parallel between Anakin and the Clones, in the scene that Mace tells Anakin to deliver the report (on Obi-Wan engaging Grievous) to Palpatine.
Mace waits until both Anakin leaves, and Cody (via hologram) signs off, before voicing his concerns on "a plot to destroy the Jedi". I just think that this little detail, foreshadowing that it is indeed the Clones and Anakin who are about to flip sides, hints that many Jedi never truly felt a strong bond to the Clones, much like the way many of the Jedi felt about Anakin.

 

Agreed. The clones are only as ethical as those who lead them. Under the Jedi they are the good guys, but when the Jedi Generals are gone, they are as ruthless as their new Imperial commanders. I liked the fact that there was a massive climax. Mace actually bested Palpatine and was about to end it there and then..and Anakin chooses to betray the Jedi. Brilliant.

 

I generally love the turn scene as well.

The way the stage is set when we see things from Anakin's pov as he enters the room.
Effective use of music here, the way it builds up to Anakin's arrival, and ends as we see Mace approaching an unarmed Chancellor, the music temporarily finishing for a bit so we just focus on the dialogue and sound effects.

Although I feel Palpatine completely knew Anakin was coming, personally. The scene works either way.

Then we have the build up in intensity as the three of them argue, Anakin vulnerably shielding his eyes from the lightning, and the thunder heard to accompany it (quite obviously linked to the significance of what is taking place).

Mace decides to end it there, and the binary sunset theme (not sure what that piece is called) ominously plays for Anakin for the last time, as he tries to intervene. Anakin gives into his fear, and betrays Mace at the last second. Again, the music as Mace's saber symbolically goes out the window (with the Jedi Order), and Palpatine springs into action, is so fitting.

Love the ironies of many role-reversals in the saga; here Anakin is about to go from a relatively innocent Jedi much like Luke will one day become, intimidated by the more dominant presences of Mace Windu and Palpatine, to the dominant icon of the Empire as Vader. I think these visual parallels holds some relevance to this...


Mace from Anakin's pov in this scene:

Because of Mace's hastiness to kill Palpatine and Anakin's actions here, Anakin of course ends up far worse than Mace as Vader:





Anakin solidifies he has sold his soul:

Spookily echoed when he has Luke's life in his hands -
ROTS - "If they are not all destroyed it will be civil war without end."
ESB - "Don't make me destroy you." :




And to top it off, the role-reversal happens again at the end of the OT. In ESB; Luke at Vader's mercy, Vader arguably not trying his hardest to kill Luke, but clearly having the upper-hand:

Which becomes a clear role-reversal for his son, when Luke almost goes too far and kills Vader at the climax of ROTJ. Only looking at what we the audience have now seen (watching all six films) does Luke see the true connection to who his father was and who he became, and where killing Vader in cold blood will lead him.


Sort of went of on a tangent, but I enjoy this stuff.

 

Just thought I would make a note for anyone who read the first post of this thread, there is further analysis throughout the rest of the thread.
Half way down pg1; I organised some of the observations and added a fair few. Please give it a read if you have a chance.




A few posts into pg2 I added some AOTC stuff.
To save some time, rather than reading through all the AOTC script stuff above, here is a quicker summary of some parts...


- (From the deleted Senate scene at the beginning of AOTC):

PALPATINE
(continued)
This grievous blow is especially personal to me. Before I became Chancellor, I served Amidala when she was Queen. She was a great leader who fought for justice, not only in this honourable assembly, but also on her home planet. She
was so loved she could have been elected queen for life. (One of many parallels between Amidala and Sidious) She believed in public service, and she fervently believed in democracy. Her death is a great loss to us all. We will all mourn
her as a relentless champion of freedom... and as a dear friend. (Seems in the script Palpatine was trying to use Amidala's "death" to get the Senate behind the war.)

.......

AMBASSADOR DARSANA
Why weren't the Jedi able to stop this assassination? We are no longer safe, under their protection. (Plays into the Senate's growing distrust of the Jedi.)
Senator ORN FREE TAA swings forward in his pod.
ORN FREE TAA
The Republic needs more security now! Before it comes to war. (Palpatine has the Senate doing his work, claiming a need for more security, and initiating the war.)



- (From the meeting between Palpatine and the Jedi following):


PALPATINE
Master Yoda, do you think it will really come to war?
YODA closes his eyes.
YODA
Worse than war, I fear... Much worse.
PALPATINE
What?
MACE WINDU
What do you sense, Master?
YODA
Impossible to see ... The Dark Side clouds everything. But this I am sure of - (opens his eyes) Do their duty the Jedi will. (This and Mace's line later in the movie "I think it is time we informed the Senate our ability to use the force has diminished." imply the Jedi's power is waning,
inverting the growing strength of the dark side. The shroud of the dark side is heavily at play in the PT - a small example is a similar response to Palpatine's true identity in Ep2 and Ep3...
- AOTC - DOOKU: Hundreds of Senators are now under the influence of a Dark Lord of the Sith called... Darth Sidious.
OBI-WAN: I don't believe you.
- ROTS - OBI-WAN: Chancellor Palpatine is the Sith Lord we've been looking for! After the death of Count Dooku, Anakin became his new apprentice.
PADME: I don't believe you! I can't. )

..........

PADMÉ
I don't wish to disagree but I think that Count Dooku was behind it.

There is a stir of surprise.

MACE WINDU
You know, M'Lady, Count Dooku was once a Jedi. He wouldn't assassinate anyone, it is not in his character. (Sign of misplaced Jedi pride I think. Plus Mace will attempt to "assassinate" Palpatine, metres from where he is standing, in the next film.)
KI-ADI-MUNDI
He is a political idealist, not a murderer.
YODA
In dark times nothing is what it appears to be, but the fact remains Senator, in grave danger you are.

PALPATINE gets up, walks to the window, and looks out at the vast city.

PALPATINE
Count Dooku has always avoided any kind of conflict. It appears he has no desire to start a war. (Palpatine and Dooku both kind of give each other alibis here, as I will explain in a later Dooku scene.) Why would he kill you? To what end?

PADMÉ
I don't know, but everything in my being tells me he was behind it...

After gazing out of the window for several moments Palpatine turns to Mace.

PALPATINE Master Jedi, may I suggest that the Senator be placed under the protection of your graces. (This is where Palpatine does something that works twofold, and I don't think it is entirely obvious to the audience. Firstly, he knows Obi-Wan is Anakin's Master,
so it isn't that much of a stretch to say he is likely trying to get Anakin and Padme interacting, knowing it will make Anakin vulnerable for manipulation in the future. But just as importantly, notice he is setting in motion the fact that Padme will be off-world for the
GAR vote. He is essentially removing his biggest obstacle to the Republic approving an army and essentially declaring war on the Separatists. Furthermore, Jar Jar will stand in for Padme when she is gone, and...
surprise, surprise it is Jar jar who he later manipulates into calling for the Senate to grant Palpatine executive powers.)



- (And from Padme confronting Dooku):

PADMÉ
And if I don't join your rebellion, I assume this Jedi with me will also die?
DOOKU
I don't wish to make you to join our cause against your will, Senator, but you are a rational, honest representative of your people and I assume you want to do what's in their best interest. Aren't you fed up with the corruption, the bureaucrats, the hypocrisy of it all?.. Aren't you? Be honest, Senator.
PADMÉ
The ideals are still alive, Count, even if the institution is failing.
DOOKU
You believe in the same ideals we believe in! The same ideals we are striving to make prominent.
PADMÉ
If what you say is true, you should stay in the Republic and help Chancellor Palpatine put things right.
DOOKU
The Chancellor means well, M'Lady but he is incompetent. (The alibis I talked of earlier, Palpatine and Dooku playing innocent to each others true identity. However, Dooku thinks he will be a part of the Empire when the Separatists are eliminated, yet doesn't know he will take the fall for the war along with the Jedi and the rest of the Separatists. He is conveniently killed by Anakin in front of Sidious on Sidious's orders, and the Chancellor is made Emperor to applause from a mostly adoring Senate, with everyone besides Palpatine as the scapegoat.) He has promised to cut the bureaucracy, but the bureaucrats are stronger than ever, no? Senator, the Republic cannot be fixed. It is time to start over. The democratic process in the Republic is a sham, a shell game played on the voters. It will not be long before the cult of greed, called the Republic, will lose even the pretext of democracy and freedom.

 

A repost of some relevant parallels.



Some noticeable statues TPM/ROTS




-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


ROTS: The whole opening sequence is set up for Anakin to "rescue" "non-force-sensitive" "friend" Palpatine

ROTJ: The whole opening sequence is set up for Luke to genuinely rescue non-force-sensitive friend Han



------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


TPM: Palpatine piggy-backs on Amidala's and Valorum's power (Blue outfit, looking up at Valorum)

ROTS: Palpatine personally declares himself Emperor of the entire galaxy on his own authority (Red outifit, controlling all in front of him openly)




-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Hood on

Sidious collecting Vader after Obi-Wan dismembers him

Obi-Wan returns to training a Skywalker

Hood off... shortly before "You're lucky to be all in one piece!"





-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



"We must accelerate our plans. Begin landing your troops."

"I suggest you move the Seperatist leaders to Mustafar."... "The end of the war is near, General."

(After Gunray's and Grievous' respective deaths): Sidious: "You have restored peace and justice to the galaxy! Send a message to the ships of the Trade Federation. All droid units must shut down, immediately!"



---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Descending to be tested by Palpatine and "pass" his test by killing Dooku

Ascending to be tested by Palpatine, yet "fails" his test to kill Vader



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I'm bored, using a few more rehashed observations.


Anakin "carrying" the Sith before ending the Jedi

Anakin ceasing to "carry" Palpatine and returning the Jedi



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Anakin protecting his Master from a death blow

Colour inversion as Vader protects his Master again

Also, Dooku is making the first swing (Anakin's grand-grand-Master), Luke is making the second (Anakin's son)


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Enter the bureaucrat. The true rulers of the Republic, and on the payroll of the Federation I might add. This is where Valorum's strength will disappear."
Valorum proceeds to suggest a commission be sent to Naboo, confirming Palpatine's claim.

"I would worry about the collective wisdom of the Council if they didn't choose you for this assignment."
The Council of course doesn't pick Anakin.



------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Colour being drained from the galaxy (blacks and greys)

 

Wish I could tell how many people who read this thread went past the first post.

 

Good stuff, Hevy.

I think about this a lot. I think Vader's injuries were an unanticipated and unwelcome thing for Palpatine.

It's true that Vader did represent a danger to Palpatine, but that is true of any Sith apprentice. I think there's a bit of a misconception about just how this "overthrowing the master" thing works, though.
The commonplace view, cemented by much of the old EU, is that a Sith apprentice eventually challenges her master, and if she is stronger, she kills the master and takes his place. I think that's a little too "Highlander" for the Sith. The Sith value cunning and the ability to manipulate others just as much as they value strength in the Force. A Sith must have both. Plagueis was killed in his sleep. It doesn't matter how strong in the Force you are, if you're foolish enough or incompetent enough to allow yourself to be that vulnerable in the presence of your apprentice, it's time for you to be replaced, for you are no longer an asset to the Sith.

Sidious expects Vader to become more powerful than him, and actually seems to be looking forward to that. That's hard to reconcile with the standard "Apprentice challenges Master" model of Sith succession unless you're prepared to ascribe some uncharacteristically selfless motivations to Palpatine. I'm not prepared to do that.

I think instead that Palpatine believes Vader will become the strongest Sith ever, and is eagerly looking forward to having the strongest Sith ever as a servant. Palpatine believes, correctly IMO, that he doesn't need to actually be stronger than Vader in order to keep him under control. Palpatine has other advantages, the main one being that he's the freaking Emperor. This is the guy who killed Plagueis in his sleep. He's not going to consider himself beholden to engage in some sort of Sith honor-duel when he can just phone in an Order 66 on Vader. The fact is that Palpatine can have Vader killed on a whim ... one of the perks of being the undisputed ruler of the galaxy. ("Unlimited power!") Therefore, while Vader's injuries do make him less capable of defeating Sidious in a fight, I don't think Sidious much cared about that, because Sidious had no intention of ever fighting Vader anyway. Sidious would have preferred Vader to be stronger, because that would have made him a more capable servant.

So Vader's injuries were a bummer. Why save him, then?

I'm not seeing much compassion in Sidious there, either. I feel that Sidious didn't really have any choice but to save him. Always two there are, no more, no less. Everyone always talks about how there can't be more than two, but there also can't be any less than two. Sidious needs an apprentice, and he didn't really have any alternative candidates lined up if Anakin died. An apprentice is not a resource you just toss aside unless you have a replacement ready to go. Saving Vader aligned well with Sidious's own self interest, there.

This also leads up to one of my favorite little Sidious moments: right after he tells Vader that Padme is dead by Vader's hand ... Vader starts to react and Sidious takes a single small (but hasty) step backwards ... as though he's not entirely confident that he's not about to be turned into goo by the unleashed power of a Chosen One gone mad with rage and grief. It's one small crack in his confidence, a sign that even Sidious is not entirely sure just what Anakin will do, or how strong he can really be. (That's another reason Sidious might have saved a weakened Vader ... he wasn't so sure just how weakened that might be.) I think that was the true make-or-break moment in Anakin's conversion, rather than the duel with Mace in the office. Would Anakin finally be struck by what he'd done and be so overcome with remorse that he would forsake the Sith and turn on his master right then and there? Would he simply be a broken man, unable to find the strength to go on? Sidious must have known that Padme would have to die at some point, but could he have truly known how Anakin would react? But not to worry: grief became rage, and Vader lashed out at everything in the room except for Sidious himself. Vader was his. Love Ian's performance there: first a small step backward ... but then, that smile.

 

Well said.

I don't know what to add, but if you haven't already you might want to check out this thread posted a while back by another member. It goes into Palpatine's possible motivations behind turning and keeping Anakin as his apprentice.

http://boards.theforce.net/threads/...to-escape-it-why-mace-lost-the-duel.50011344/

 

In the novelization, Vader is trying to kill Sidious - but the combination of lack of experience with his new state, and subconsciously not wanting to, prevents him from doing so:


You did it.
You killed her.
You killed her because, finally, when you could have saved her, when you could have gone away with her, when you could have been thinking about her, you were thinking about yourself ...
It is in this blazing moment that you finally understand the trap of the dark side, the final cruelty of the Sith-
Because now your self is all you will ever have.
And you rage and scream and reach through the Force to crush the shadow who has destroyed you, but you are so far less than what you were, you are more than half machine, you are like a painter gone blind, a composer gone deaf, you can remember where the power was but the power that you can touch is only a memory, and so with all your world-destroying fury it is only droids around you that implode, and equipment, and the table on which you were strapped shatters, and in the end, you cannot touch the shadow.
In the end, you do not even want to.
In the end, the shadow is all that you have left.
Because the shadow understands you, the shadow forgives you, the shadow gathers you unto itself-
And in your furnace heart, you burn in your own flame.
This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker.
Forever ...

 

I love that thread, espeially Darth Nub's immortal response!

 

My favorite novellization, and probably my favorite SW book, period. Very readable prose style, and lots of good insights. The whole "when constructing the perfect Jedi trap" framing device for the Utapau sequence was terrific.

When discussing the films, though, I tend to stick to what's actually there on the screen, and whenever there's room for interpretation, I feel free to run with it. Another example related to Sidious's plans: I'm not sure I really buy into the whole "Yoda was deliberately sent offworld to draw out the Sith Lord" thing. Sidious had been successfully hiding from Yoda for years, and I don't think the presence or absence of any one Jedi Master, even Yoda, would likely influence his plans much. Would the Jedi really base their personnel decisions and possibly compromise other crucial missions on the off chance that Sidious would choose to reveal himself right then?

Remember, the Jedi still had one huge advantage that they were counting on: numbers. When the Jedi were planning their moves against Sidious, I don't think they would have been considering individual match-ups. The Jedi weren't counting on Yoda or Mace or even Anakin to personally defeat Sidious in combat; they were counting on a group of several Jedi Council Masters to defeat Sidious. (If they ended up in a 1 vs. 1 situation, then something would have gone horribly, horribly wrong.) Sidious would have to expect that the Jedi would send a bunch of guys after him the moment he popped his head up, so would the Jedi really think that Yoda's absence would make Sidious feel any safer?

In this case, I think the Jedi handed out assignments for exactly the reasons stated in those Council meeting. Yoda was sent off because he had good relations with the Wookies, and was an ideal choice to defend that critical system. Obi-Wan was sent after Grevious because that was an incredibly important mission, the key to ending the war, so they sent the guy that they honestly believed had the best chance of success, despite the fact that he was one of the two most experienced Sith-fighters in the Order, and would have been nice to have in any group going to confront Sidious. Anakin had his mission as the inside man, a mission that only he could do. If some other emergency popped up and the Council felt that Mace was needed to deal with it, I think they would have happily sent him offworld as well. If Sidious turned up while all those Jedi were away, well, they would just put together a posse with whoever was available and go handle it, counting on strength in numbers. But until they actually found Sidious, the Jedi still had to take care of business as usual.

So I don't think Sidious really cared what Yoda got up to. Sidious was confident that he could handle any initial confrontation with the Jedi ... they didn't truly know what Sidious was capable of and would underestimate him. (Sidious was never short on confidence.) Of course, having failed once, the Jedi would naturally send a much larger followup force ("The Jedi are relentless!") but that was what Order 66 was for: to eliminate the Order's numerical advantage and take the threat of a large scale Jedi assault off the table forever. The only Jedi he really wanted out of the way was Kenobi, because of the personal connection to Anakin. If the Council had sent Mace or Yoda after Grievous, Sidious's plans could have taken a real hit.

I really enjoy picking apart the strategic thinking of both sides. One of my favorite things about the prequels is just how well they hold up to this sort of scrutiny. (Compare this to, say, analyzing the villian's plans in Star Trek: Into Darkness. Go ahead. Try to figure out what Cumberbatch's character was thinking. I dare you. [Spoiler greyed out, just in case someone still cares] He went to the Klingon homeworld because ... he would be safe there? Except he knew that the Admiral was looking for an excuse to start a war with the Klingons, so he gave the Admiral that excuse because ... why again? To get his people back? The people he knew were in the missiles that the Admiral would surely fire at him? Wait, what?)

I'm desperately hoping that the new SW films continue this tradition of careful plotting.

 

I agree, the novel was really good.

On the Council's strategic decisions as presented in the novel, I like to think there was more to it than what we were shown in the final cut of the film, but I honestly don't know if that was intended to still be implied in there.
In my headcanon it seems cool to be in on something that not everyone onscreen (and indeed some viewers) are aware of, and it makes the Jedi look a little less like a group of complacent pushovers. Sending Yoda offworld because they sense this will encourage the Sith to let their guard down makes the plot seem a little richer to me, but I think it is really on the audience whether they want to buy into that plot thread.
From Palpatine's pov however, the strategy in fraudulently suggesting Anakin over Obi-Wan for the Utapau mission is clearly still there. I do wonder whether Yoda being on Kashyyyk indeed had any bearing on the timing of Palpatine's actions.

Good call on the plotting holding up under scrutiny. The writing around Palpatine in ROTS is particularly underrated to me.

 

Anyone get a different reading on any of the observations in the opening post? Would love to discuss.

 

Epic post. I'm sure I'm in minority but I wouldn't have minded an extended version of the movie with most of the political/conversational stuff included. It's the central thread in the PT IMO.

It also shows Lucas pays more attention to the dialogue than his detractors or even fans give him credit for. There's a lot of subtext behind each line.