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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

An Ever Growing Problem: The Lack of Respect for Darth Vader

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by LordVader66, Oct 14, 2006.

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  1. LordVader66

    LordVader66 Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Aug 30, 2005
    He threw a bunch of stuff at Luke on Bespin. So, Force Telekinesis can be used against Force users. Force choke is for debate though. We didn't see PT Vader ripping stuff off the walls on Mustafar, so there is proof for growth in power between the PT and OT.

    George Lucas? Obiwan Kenobi? Wookiepedia? I was under the assumption that it was the general consensus and widely assumed. His poential in the Force was limited, not taken away on Mustafar. So he was the galaxy's best pilot during the PT, and remained so into the OT.

    Define what you consider 'less powerful physically' and 'more knowledgable'.


     
  2. Sennet

    Sennet Jedi Youngling

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    Mar 25, 2007
    The one and only thing that ever made Vader any less awesome, in my mind at least, can be summed up in a single word:

    NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
     
  3. THRAWNFAN

    THRAWNFAN Jedi Youngling star 2

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    Mar 23, 2007
    Purge is a good comic hightlighting Vaders villiany
     
  4. LordVader66

    LordVader66 Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Aug 30, 2005
    What was wrong with it? What did you expect him to do?

    Is that canon?
     
  5. Master_Starwalker

    Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 20, 2003
    It's C-Level canon like most of the EU.
     
  6. THRAWNFAN

    THRAWNFAN Jedi Youngling star 2

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    Mar 23, 2007
    Yup, its C level canon. back to the issue at hand. Vader just seems like a weak villian to some because they want him to be cold, rational, badass like he was in ESB. Thats the way he is when dealing with rebels, subordinates and runaway edi yes, but ppl dont get that Anakin was ultimatly, just a whiny brat. its not a bad thing, and he WAS the 2nd most powerful figure in the galaxy


    TLJ Edit: Please edit your messages if you want to add something, don't double post. Also, I think something went wrong with your second post anyway
     
  7. LordVader66

    LordVader66 Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Aug 30, 2005

    No he wasn't. First of all, everyone had a picture of Anakin Skywalker as a great Jedi, almost like an Obiwan in the PT. But Anakin to have issues and problems to realitically fall to the dark side. It's a tight line to walk. Anakin had to be a great Jedi to make the fall epic, but it also had to be realistic. So if Anakin was a Jedi like Obiwan or Yoda, I'd have a hard time believing he could be turned. But Anakin is still made out to be a Jedi hero, he's powerful and at 23, carries the Republic on his back during the war. I liked the character of Anakin Skywalker in RotS. Anakin was perfect. PERFECT, just as he was. In AotC, it's a bit of another story. His behavior was quite a turn off most of the time. When he's talking to Padme on Coruscant, the line "It's not fair!" is always pointed to him being the whiny brat. Yeah, it's true. But it's also realistic (maybe a bit too realistic for SW). We have all been teenagers and said things that would make us cringe today. I'm only 20 and I can think of numerous instances off the top of my head. But getting back on topic, it seems Anakin in AotC has consumed the character of Darth Vader. That underneath that helmet is Hayden Christensen telling Palpatine "Come onnnnnn, Master, how can you make Tarkin the boss of me? It's not fair!". First of all the Anakin's emotional growth between AotC and RotS was leaps and bounds. Even his relationship with Obiwan has changed. Obiwan no longer sees him as a son, but as an equal, a brother. His blow up in the Council Chambers was justified, as far as I'm concerned. But it also shows us that Anakin isn't a Jedi's Jedi yet. He's a galactic hero, but he's still struggling with his Jedi commitments. But PT Anakin and OT Vader are completely different people. Just as Jedi Count Dooku and Darth Tyranus were different people. Tyranus went from being a humble, wise Jedi to being someone whose ego was the size of the galaxy and a speciest. There not the same person. The dark side corrupts and brings out the worst in the individual. Anakin in AotC may have been a whiny, greedy and inarticulate, but he still was a good person at heart. Vader isn't a good person. He is a ruthless Sith Lord. He's filled with hatred and anger. For Darth Vader to be ulimately considered a "whiny teenager", it's wrong. Vader is a 42 year old man in ANH. He's learned his lessons and he's as cool and calculating as they come. He's completely different from anything in the PT. It's ironic that the above poster tried to defend Vader, and yet he espouses something of a widespread simplistic opinion of Vader that isn't true.
     
  8. Sennet

    Sennet Jedi Youngling

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    Mar 25, 2007
    Oh, don't get your pants in a twist. I still adore the guy, but that just... good lord. It just came out of left field, for me.
     
  9. THRAWNFAN

    THRAWNFAN Jedi Youngling star 2

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    Mar 23, 2007
    Im only articulate half the time. Thanks for clearing up what i was trying to say, because thats what it was
     
  10. ROTSFan

    ROTSFan Jedi Master star 4

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    Jul 25, 2006
    People think that the noooooooo was really lame but I took it like the movie intended-I just thought it was sad he'd lost his love. I can't really imagine what other reaction he would have to Padme dying; he wouldn't really just say, "She's deceased? I caused it? That's too bad...."

    You can kind of see his fragile humanity flush down the tubes with it, because now he's (he thinks) destroyed the only loving thing he had left and has only Sidious and Empire. I think at that point he ran as far away from his life as Anakin as he could (although it was a gradual transition) and the cold, calculating guy in A New Hope is the half-machine without hope, who's willingly forgotten how to feel.
     
  11. THRAWNFAN

    THRAWNFAN Jedi Youngling star 2

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    Mar 23, 2007
    If you did a survey of people who aren't star wars fans, the name that will never stop coming up is Darth Vader and MAYBE Luke Skywalker. The emperor is not nearly as well known
     
  12. Master_Starwalker

    Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 20, 2003
    Yeah, I'd say the three names that come up most often are Darth Vader, Luke Skywalker, and Obi-Wan. Han, Leia, Chewie and Yoda would be somewhere up there as well.
     
  13. LordVader66

    LordVader66 Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Aug 30, 2005
    Darth Vader will always be Star Wars. Period. But when I started this thread, I was reaching out to a growing number of diehard fans that saw Vader in a new light brought about by the Prequel Trilogy. Thinking about this comment:

    Perhaps George Lucas commited the cardinal sin in creating Anakin, we could no longer sympathsize with the character. No one wanted to root for the guy. He was selfish and placed one person ahead of an entire galaxy and he knew it was the wrong thing to do. Is that it?


     
  14. AnnLouise

    AnnLouise Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Jul 10, 2005
    To a large extent, yes. It's hard to make the protaganist of your space opera trilogy someone the audience already knows as a genocidal killer. It would be like "Heinrich Himmler: the Early Years".

    Any great antagonist/bad guy is weakenedn with prolonged exposure. Hannibal Lecter was at his most mesmerizing in the two book where he was a supporting character. When he became the focus, we get dreck like Hannibal Rising. In Dracula, the title character isn't even in most of the scenes - but he dominates the story, and every other character acts in reaction to him.
    When he becomes a lovesick husband (in the Coppola movie), Dracula loses his grip on the imagination.
     
  15. ROTSFan

    ROTSFan Jedi Master star 4

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    Jul 25, 2006
    I don't know, I didn't really think Anakin was that bad a guy, just a regular teenager going through teenage issues dealing with the loss of his mom and first crush. To me it made him more real and sympathetic when his eventual downfall came.
     
  16. Master_Starwalker

    Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 20, 2003
    I think Anakin was a fascist who killed women and children, which while he needed to have both of those things eventually, I think Episode 2 was a bit too early. He was hero during the Clone Wars because of his service to the Republic, but I do think Anakin should have been portrayed as being more heroic and mature before his fall, which would still have been plausible given that they could have done something more like Faust with him being seduced by the allure of power.
     
  17. Auric

    Auric Jedi Youngling

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    Dec 10, 2006
    Vader is rightly considered to be one of the greatest movie villains of all time. People will remember him long after other Star Wars characters have been forgotten.
     
  18. THRAWNFAN

    THRAWNFAN Jedi Youngling star 2

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    Mar 23, 2007
    They should of made TPM 45 minutes long, cut off all of AOTC's fat and make the reduced TPM a prologue. That would be the first movie. the 3rd would still be ROTS but the 2nd would show Anakins bravery during the clone wars. This would accentuate the tragedy of him falling to the dark side
     
  19. Master_Starwalker

    Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 20, 2003
    The problem is that stylistically that wouldn't meld well with the rest of the Saga. Had I been the one making the Prequels Anakin would have started out older as a Republic pilot whom Obi-Wan discovers and takes it upon himself to train as a Jedi, but I do think that Lucas succeded portraying the character of Anakin as he designed him, I just don't know that I like the design as much as the character that's imo hinted at in the Originals(and no it's not that it didn't live up to my expectations as I had none since I was 11 or so when TPM came out, it's just something I've been thinking about recently.)
     
  20. THRAWNFAN

    THRAWNFAN Jedi Youngling star 2

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    Mar 23, 2007
    i was only 11 when pm came out too, but i never saw it in theaters. Noone in my family is a sw fan and i never saw the first two prequels in theaters, nor the ot at home, except for maybe 5 minutes on tv. I saw rots when it came out and I LOVED it, then I read a whole bunch of sw fiction and now ive seen the ot( actually, ive seen anh and empire at least 10 times since thenNow that im better aquaited, rots isnt as great as i thought it was, but its still really good, and i think why it isnt as great as the first time i saw it was because pm and aotc were pretty bad. Your idea is interesting, but it obviously has continuity issues
     
  21. AnnLouise

    AnnLouise Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Jul 10, 2005
    The Clone Wars cartoon series did a good job at this; I like both of them, but really wish that they were "Episode II" leading into ROTS. They show that heroism, the comradeship with O-W, and hints at the darkness creeping into Anakin's soul.

    I also imagined Anakin as an older character, maybe a minor "grunt" who discovered/was discovered later in life.
     
  22. Master_Starwalker

    Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 20, 2003
    Oh, the cartoon and comics definitely did a great job at showing him as the Hero he was supposed to be. I think Anakin older would have worked, though I'd rather see him as a starfighter pilot.
     
  23. s0Lstar18

    s0Lstar18 Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Sep 26, 2005
    Didn't Vader learn to almost fully regenerate in Shadows Of the Empire???
     
  24. TwiLekJedi

    TwiLekJedi Pretty Ex-Mod star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 14, 2001
    far from fully. in fact, I think it wasn't even regeneration, more like self-sustaining without the suit. for, what, 2 minutes?

    the cartoons, yes
    the comics? he happened to be heroic afterwards because of his usual rashness and stubborness and was just as troubled and troublesome, if not more so, than in the movies
     
  25. LordVader66

    LordVader66 Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Aug 30, 2005
    I loved that part of Shadows of the Empire. He regenerated the tissue of his burned lungs. Then the final line was something like "first he would be able to do it for 2 minutes, then 10, then forever. He was the Dark Lord of the Sith, he could do anything". But the aspect of Vader actually needing a respirator to breath has been forgotton in the Prequel Trilogy. After being hacked up on Mustafar, he remained alive breathing, and then went being put into the suit, we see no special breathing aparatus. So the iron lung, if still canon, happened to Vader after Mustafar. But def a cool part of Shadows of the Empire.

    I would have liked to seen it like that, too. But it just wasn't going to work. The audience needs to see Anakin's character going from point A to B. Anakin needs to be shown as a slave, an arogant jerk in AotC for the fall to be realistic in RotS. Lucas had a very difficult line to walk. He needed to be a hero, but it had to be believable that he would fall. AotC is very tough for me to watch, to be honest. I would like nothing more than to see Obiwan and Anakin to have been very close and respect each other. But didn't go down like that. Lucas didn't make Star Wars for the diehard fans. He made it for the fans that would go the movies once and needed to see Step 1, Step 2 and finally step 3 in how he fell.


     
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