An Explanation of the Saga

Darth Plagueis himself is the lie. He's like the electron that exists between two probability waves.

At the opera, I believe that Palpatine is referring to future events. Anakin sacrifices himself and saves everyone else. "He had such a knowledge of the Dark Side that he could even keep the ones he cared about from dying." Anakin's knowledge of the Dark Side became so vast that he finally saw it for what it was and renounced it. But he signed his own death warrant upon doing so. In his office, I believe that Palpatine is referring to Qui Gon. Does Palpatine quite realise in either instance? Maybe. Maybe not. But he's something of a mystery character. You can't take anything that he says too literally.

It *is* a bit nutty. I wouldn't expect anyone else to understand it. I'm not sure I fully understand it myself! Returning to my electron analogy, as Richard Feynman said, "If you think you understand quantum mechanics, you don't understand quantum mechanics." But Palpatine is a "wheels within wheels character". He's like the Dark Side personified. He isn't your ordinary Sith Lord. Nor is he just the "anti Yoda". His wisdom and influence extend beyond there.

 

There is truly a difference between cheating death and becoming immortal, I think we all see that. What Palpatine is after is physical immortality, it seems, what Qui-Gon was after is 'becoming one with the Great Soul' as Buddhists put it.

In any way I fail to see how Anakin signs his death warrant when falling for Palpatine. It is part of his journey, so why treat it like it ought not have happened?

 

No. I meant when he kills Palpatine in defence of his son. He signs his death warrant then. (Physically, that is).

 

No, there is no difference.
"To cheat death" means "to avoid death by luck or skill."
"Immortality" means "the quality or condition of living forever."
That is all these words mean. To cheat death=not dying. Immortality=not dying.
He's talking about Qui-Gon because Qui-Gon cheats death by becoming immortal and because Darth Plagueis (the only other "possibility") is pretend.

 

Qui Gon died. Anakin Died. They both merged with the force. Cheating death is maintaining a physical state, I believe, unlike what we see our force ghosts do.

 

This discussion is going in circles.

I'm not sure the issue can be at all resolved.

 

I don't think that it really can, when you think about it. I'm sure that every member has his or her own opinion about the matter.

 

I already resolved it. Some people aren't looking at the definitions of the words. It's Qui-Gon.

 

Wrong, Qui Gon Died. He did not cheat death.

Becoming a Force Ghost is a whole lot different then cheating death.

It's resolved. Cheating death is avoiding death for the sole purpose to remain living. It's a selfish act. Becoming a force ghost is giving up you physical self to become one with the force.

 

Agreed.

 

Hahahahahaha!!!! Oh, Sinnion.

Only one person "cheated death." Qui-Gon discovered "the path to immortality."

Cheat: avoid (something undesirable) by luck or skill.
Immortality: the quality or condition of living forever; never dying or decaying.
THEREFORE,
To "cheat death": avoid death by luck or skill.
Qui-Gon is the only one (at this point) to do this. He LITERALLY "cheats death" BY becoming "immortal."

Anybody can save others from death. Now that I think about it, NOTHING in the films suggest that saving others from death has anything to do with using some sort of physical ability. You can use the dark side to save others from death? Use the dark side? What does that even mean? "Strong enough with the dark side to..."="Greedy enough to be willing to..."

Lots of people are saved from death in the films! But only one CHEATS it by then--Qui-Gon!

For all we know, "saving others from death" could mean "willing to look into the future and attempt to change this particular outcome."

Does this have anything to do with influencing midi-chlorians? Probably not!

It actually makes perfect sense now. Sidious has a suit that can sustain a critically injured person. Anakin thinks that Padmé will be killed giving birth. Sidious says "If you use the dark side (if you're greedy enough), you can save her." Anakin is not greedy enough until he starts acting out of greed and embracing this evil ideology. If he's willing, he'll put Padmé into a giant, scary-looking suit, just to keep her around. But since she doesn't die from anything physical, and his attempts to save her actually kill her, the joke's on him and he has to live inside of the suit forever as punishment for being so foolish. "If you're greedy enough, you can keep her alive in this hideous thing. Oh? She's dead? No injuries? Sorry, buddy. Looks like you need it now."

ROTS is about the Vader suit.

"NOoOoOoOoOoOo!"
("I've been had!")

But to cheat death=to become immortal. Qui-Gon, everybody!

 

Qui-Gon however did die. He was around afterwards as a voice, but it's hardly immortality or cheating death. One I suppose could argue that Jinn is living forever, but he's technically not alive.

 

"Qui-Gon however did die. He was around afterwards as a voice, but it's hardly immortality or cheating death. One I suppose could argue that Jinn is living forever, but he's technically not alive."

Yoda says that he "learned the path to immortality."

 

True, I had forgotten that line. I still don't see the Sith viewing it as immortality however given that one loses the ability to directly effect the physical world. It also would be impossible for a Sith to learn that ability given that it's attained by complete selflessness, and yet Palpatine both says Anakin can't learn this from a Jedi(which is wrong as only a Jedi or a Shaman of the Whills could teach it) and that "To cheat death, is a power only one has achieved. But, if we work together, I know we can discover the secret." which is of course false, as both Sidious and Vader are too consumed by the Dark Side and selfishness to ever achieve what Qui-Gon did.

 

Like others have said here, it?s easy to take objection to the idea of Qui-Gon cheating death because that particular terminology carries a selfish connotation that reeks of the Sith mentality. In this case it probably helps to cue the ?from a certain point of view? or ?focus determines your reality? lines. Qui-Gon did beat death, although I think it?s safe to assume his doing so was a not self-serving ploy, but rather the result of having reached some greater form of enlightenment in regards to the necessity of the Force being brought back into balance. Granted, the actual films offer no overt explanations from a practical sense as to how Qui-Gon stumbled upon his revelation, and I myself admit to reading much into the character?s TPM embodiment that points to a man of questionable morals, but nonetheless I think it?s pretty clear that Qui-Gon beat the trap of death because ultimately, when it counted, he recognized what it would take to usher in a period of galactic atonement.

Similarly, I think it?s key not to put on your tunnel vision goggles when taking a look at the possibility that Sidious was in fact referring to the Qui-Gon when he spoke of that one who cheated death. I don?t see why both polarized sides of this argument can?t be combined to form a greater truth. In terms of interior motive, Sidious could have been consciously referring to a fabricated story about Plagueis manipulating life. Unconsciously, however, an undercurrent of truth pervaded his lie thanks to the inevitability of the Force?s will being weaved into reality.

 

Nicely put.

Perhaps others would like to check out the Palpatine dialogue thread to see where I'm coming from in greater detail.

Incidentally, Ezekiel, the answer to Qui Gon's achievement is manifest in the films (though Lucas could still have embellished this aspect with prudent dialogue). In the prequel films, Qui Gon is the only Jedi to fall and attain an inner peace. But the peace is fragmented. He didn't sacrifice himself in battle (witness the look of shock when Maul's blade pierces his body) and he was grasping for breath as he desperately urged Obi Wan to promise that he'd train Anakin. Fortunately for Qui Gon, his old padawan agreed, so Qui Gon was able to pass over with some kind of acceptance. But not enough to achieve spectral form (the cut dialogue intimates this). Cue the OT. Obi Wan, Yoda and Anakin all freely embrace death, with no shock or resistance whatsoever, and therefore exceed Qui Gon's achievement.

 

I don't see what Qui Gon did as beating death, cheating death or taking death around the back and giving it a good walloping.

Qui Gon simply achieved immortality through his compassion. Qui Gon was completely compassionate - he was in tune with all living things. And that's pretty much what compassion is about. It derives from the term "suffering with". And it's through this, although we don't know all the in's and outs, that Qui Gon was able to return from the netherworld of the force and have an influence upon the living world - of course, Yoda and Kenobi take this to the next level. The whole discussion about cheating death and the context in which it is spoken is about cheating death in the living world - cheating it physically. I don't think that has anything to do with the Jedi's ability to defy oblivion and gain immortality in the spiritual world.

I'd like to ask this though:

What would be the purpose of Sidious referring to Qui Gon when he speaks of the one who cheated death? Not only the in-universe reason, as in why Sidious would be thinking about that himself at the time. But also in the narrative sense. The mythological reason. It just appears completely irrelevant to me and ends up deferring from what is going on and gives a false view of what Sidious is up to.

The whole concept of ROTS and Anakins turn was that he made a deal with the devil that backfires (as always). Anakin's motivation was to save Padme. This was what Sidious offered him. It's what Sidious was talking about in the Opera scene. So then to say Sidious himself wasn't talking about that (Plagueis) later on seems inexplicable to me.

 

There are two components there:

Palpatine/Sidious and his Mythological Function: He performs a multitude of roles throughout the saga. He represents the archetype of the Shadow, is a father figure to Anakin, the Republic and the saga as a whole, a deceiver, a comic/jester, a seer, a teacher/mentor and even an avatar for George Lucas. Pretty complex, but if you take a look at the Palpatine dialogue thread (especially what is currently the last page), you might see where I'm coming from (mandragora and I have been working on a system). It actually makes a measure of sense for him to be referring to something that seems to contradict his surface philosophy and meanings.

Anakin's Turn: As I hope you'll agree, Anakin's turn is laden with irony (starting at TPM and flowering geometrically from there). The fact that Sidious could be referring to Qui Gon makes Anakin's actions even more ironic. Anakin embraces the Dark Side to sustain life when his original would-be mentor has achieved a kind of immortality through the opposite means. In other words, in trying to achieve what someone already has with totally different methods (albeit, as this lengthy discussion attests, an achievement in a different form), Anakin couldn't be further from succeeding. We can understand the folly of the dark path that Anakin takes that much more if we juxtapose it with Qui Gon's own.

 

I will take a gander.

EDIT:

Just noticed its a large thread. Personally, I cant for the life of me see any hidden meanings...or the reason for any in terms of Sidious talking about Qui Gon - even on a metaphorical sense. It just doesn't seem to have any reason for me other than to create a new theory. Personally, I think by accepting the "truth" of it and by embracing the evidence which points to him talking about Plagueis, we get a better picture of Sidious as a man, a Sith and as "the shadow".

But that's more a case of comparing the two rather than suggesting that it was a conscious remark made by Palpatine. The theme of immortality and how its achieved is apparant anyway without suggesting that Sidious was talking about Qui Gon. We can see Anakins errors but at the same time see the flaw of the dark side and the enlightenment of the light side. The fact is, Anakin isnt seeking to cheat death himself though. He is seeking to save Padme. This disconnects the reason for turning to the dark side with the notion of immortality and what Qui Gon was able to do.

 

Excellent post.

Essentially there is no right or wrong answer to this. Its down to what the individual thinks and believes. Thats whats great about Star Wars and especially Revenge of the Sith, Lucas has left a lot of things deliberatly abiguous so that we have all these things to discuss and debate. The truth is, whatever you take into Star Wars is what you will take with you. Thats an awesome way of telling stories, IMO and it shows a lot of respect for the audiance.

 

Yep. That's why I said see the last page. I've recently made a couple of meaty posts which cover in greater detail what I said in here concerning Palpatine.

You can embrace both. That's my whole point: Palpatine's dialogue has many layers of meaning.

Right. What Anakin and Qui Gon achieve by the close of Episode III are two totally different things. But if Anakin had trusted more in the Force, as Qui Gon did, he wouldn't have lost Padme at all. Not at that moment in time and in the manner that he did. That's what makes it ironic. I don't see the comparison/contrast between Anakin and Qui Gon as redundant. It only goes to show how far off the mark Anakin was in turning to the Dark Side. The idea that Palpatine is talking about Qui Gon, at least on some level (consciously or subconsciously), further underscores the true Jedi path that Anakin strayed from. Remember: Lucas has approached the films like a symphony. Different "instruments" play at different times to underscore mutually entwined ideas, themes and motifs, and to create texture, depth and nuance.

It's not just an awesome way of telling stories; it's the only way of telling stories. Even simple children's fables have multiple layers of meaning and potent allusive qualities. One simply needs to sufficiently immerse themselves in a tale. I guess it's kind of like staring at a house. From the outside, it normally has little more than a two dimensional facade, but if you are able to move closer and enter, its inner three dimensional structure and true detail is revealed.

 

Its amazing how many movies/story-tellers decide that the audiance has to know absolutely every single detail and have everything explained 100%, though Cryo. This is where a lot of films flounder, IMO, because they take the audiance as idiots. The much better and artistic way to go is to leave certain details amiguous and to let the audiance decide. Certainly in the case of ROTS (and PT generally) there are many little details that aren't really explained that well and I have to admit that its one of the reason's why I tend to prefer the PT (as a whole) to the CT (as a whole) Theres so much to think about in the PT on so many levels.

 

That's true.

But witness the myriad of attachments people have made to the OT. Everyone sees those films in their own special way.

I'm not dealing with films that hammer everything home and treat the audience like defectives. They're a separate thing that exist outside the scope of serious discussions of anything pertaining to world-affirming artwork, in my opinion. Comparing "Star Wars" to those is an insult.

Still, all of that rhetoric probably amounts to taking your remarks a little too literally. I get the spirit of what you're saying. While I think the OT is more watchable, the PT is inherently more interesting. I think Jumpman here once said it best: the PT is like an historical epic to the original films that we know and love so well. It consciously operates on a different level.

 

Oh, I get it.

Without wanting to go into the whole QGJ conundrum and of whom Palpatine is speaking and all of that, there is a distinct difference between these two.
You seem to be set upon making this about dying to the physical and material realm which is all well, but slightly off the point, since we are explicitly dealing with force-ghostiness here, something very immaterial, wouldn't you agree?
There is death of the body and there is death of the spirit. Depending on how well-versed you are in any kind of mysticism, you might understand this distinction. Rebirth, Nirvana, do not refer to the body as such, they refer to the spirit. Thus it is awfully clear even if QGJ decided to cheat death rather than awaken to his essence or spirit and if Palpatine for the thousandth time simply tries to haunt the physical realm rather then the spiritual, we as readers of the story are able to make this distinction all the same.

 

This discussion is going in circles.

I'm not sure the issue can be at all resolved.

The discussion may be at an impass, but I will through this in anyway, for what it is worth. As I understand it the crux of the argument is that Palpatine did not lie is when he said "only one has achieved immortality" he meant QGJ not Plaguis. However, the evidence that he means QGJ is subjective to the idea that he had so much insight into the Force as to be able to have a kind of Force omniscent, so-to-speak. While the films do show Palpatine as having powerful insight, they never show him as omniscent, even in terms of the Force knowledge. In fact, the purposely show holes in his Force sight -- such as not knowing for sure if Yoda was dead and most notibly not sensing Luke in ROTJ. So that evidence in favor of Palpatine having that level of Force insight in and of itself is imcomplete within the context of on-screen material.

That leaves an investigation of the narrative to see if it fits within the story. Putting QGJ as the one he means, not Plaguis, does not fit narratively. The statement, in and of itself, does create a sense of irony as many have pointed out. But that irony is lost if he intentionally meant QGJ. Further, there is no reason for him to be suddenly talking about a Jedi, even to the point of covering a lie with a truth. He had already told Anakin extending life was a power the Jedi considered unnatural and would not teach. If he wants Anakin to believe he can teach him that power, why not continue to make him believe a Sith discovered it, to the point of just telling him so, true or not? Will Vader feel any less deceived if he later learns he meant QGJ? And does Sidious seem to have any special insight into Force ghosts in the Saga? It doesn't seem he, or anyone else beyond a few select Jedi, do.

But, the biggest tell-tale is what Anakin says in that scene. He says he'll do anything he asks if he'll help him save Padme. He's asking for a power to stop people from dying, not the power to transcend himself into an immortal state. That is the comment to which Palpatine replies with "only one has ever learned...". Since QGJ did not learn how to save other people, that further indicates Palpatine is referring to another Sith, or someone with dark side knowledge.


What would be the purpose of Sidious referring to Qui Gon when he speaks of the one who cheated death? Not only the in-universe reason, as in why Sidious would be thinking about that himself at the time. But also in the narrative sense. The mythological reason. It just appears completely irrelevant to me and ends up deferring from what is going on and gives a false view of what Sidious is up to.

Agreed. Why portray Sidious as someone who isn't lying and isn't immoral? His narrative function is to be "bad". GL isn't trying to get us to like the guy (that is, once you know who he is), nor is he trying to use him in a nuetral or protaganistic sense. His job is to be the primary nemisis of the series, even if Vader is the focal nemisis. All evil starts with him and (in ROTJ) ends with him. To suggest he acted fairly and non-deeptively is contrary to his primary nature and role within the Saga.

Now, portraying him as all bad does not mean that Palpatine is a poorly developed character or an uninteresting one. On the contrary, he is one of the more interesting character in the PT/Saga. But this doesn't mean he isn't a liar or evil, it means he was well developed and designed in his narrative function by his creator (GL).