An honest question here

It is safe to say that the NJO definitely has a darker mood with all these deaths and stuff. Which brings me to my question, a while back, Del Rey made a statement which basically said that they wanted to do away with the aspect of the main characters seemingly being invincible, and thus make you fear for the characters lives. That was their justification for killing of Chewie early in the series. The NJO is almost halfway done, and I have to ask, has this aspect made the books any better than the Bantam published Star Wars books? Forget the fact that Bantam seemed to recycle their plotlines. I mean if Bantam published the NJO and did everything Del Rey has done except killing off main characters, would you still buy and enjoy the books?

 

After SBS I'm not buying them.

By the way, it's Bantam, not Batnam.

 

NJO definetly has a darker mood. I believe that Del Ray had to do this to dispell the feeling that main characters never die. The only other series where people die is X-Wing. And you never even get to know the characters that do. I think the deaths in NJO are quite essential.

 

This is when the discussion becomes personal opinion. I really have no desire to worry about main characters dying.

 

Thanks for the heads-up
see, I changed it.

 

I think that the ideal of main character deaths has been with the series for so long that it seems like a fundamental part of it, like it wouldn't be NJO without it. I think, and this is only my opinion, that the deaths does help the mood with the 'darkness' part. Whilst it does seem artificial, it manages, sort of, to create a 'real war' mood. I mean the hopeless, pointless, oppressed feel of war and the way one feels when it is happening. As i have not been touched by war, the nearest experience i could point out was waking up on September 12th to find my Mum standing in my room telling me that the U.S was under attack. (Because, due to time difference, the attacks occured during the middle of our night and i was asleep).

As far as Bantam is concerned, their way was not based on character development completely (though they did let a couple of good books slip past them ) however, the ideal seemed to be for several of the books to just go on an adventure. This adventure spirit is fine and can produce some good stories, however the Bantam method of doing these books was beginning to stale. Then they lost the licence and had only a few books left, and most of them were good. How does that work ?

 

I don't like all the death. Sure some maybe but I think it can go to far. If I want to be depressed about people dying I will watch the news. The books need to be entertaining not depressing. The question is where is the line between too much and just enough death. I think they are walking a fine line now. I have been ok with it so far but I am worried they may go to far. I don't like that sometimes because it can lower my excitement about getting a new book. I hate picking one up and going.. 'I wonder who dies in this one'.

 

Things are starting to look better as of Dark Journey... I'm as much of a critic of the NJO as anyone and I managed to get through without wanting to scream or tear anyone's limbs off.

 

i think it's crazy that ppl complain about anakin being killed off, and say stuff like: "it should have been jacen"... in war, you don't get to choose who dies, sometimes war doesn't go your way, and ppl you like do die... that's life...

 

I liked seeing Anakin killed off, I mean lets face it, you cant be invincible. I think its just time for the non-force usersto step it up.

 

You say it's just life. The problem with that is not all of us pick up a SCI-FI/FANTASY book to read about life. Obviously some do. But Star Wars is not real life and many of us read it to escape life for a short period of time.

Now if we want to read Star Wars, we're stuck with real life. For me personally, it defeats the purpose of why I'm reading, so that's why I stopped.

The reason why some get angry is because reading SW becomes a hobby. When somone makes that hobby less fun, and in some cases destroys the fun in that hobby, it's infurating.

That's our side of things. I'm not a person that demands everyone has to have my opinion, but I hope this explains our's a little.

 

I think it adds intrigue to the SW universe, as well as a touch of realism. How many SW books have you read where, no matter how bleak the situation, you knew that the main characters would pull through and prevail? Now, when reading the NJO, I have doubts. To me, these doubts make me more interested in reading the books. I can't wait for the next one, because literally anything can happen next.

 

But what happens when one of the main foundations of your liking for SW is the lack of realism?

I mean:

"Gather round. Your mission is to fly inside this planet-sized, half-constructed battle station. Assuming there are no solid steel walls, you are to fly towards the centre and destroy the reactor. You are then to fly out, outrace the explosion and rejoin the fleet. Any questions?"

There are none.

That is not realistic, most people, even hardened military would probably think: WTF? It's a suicide job!

But it's SW! We know they will pull this crazy crap of a plan off!

NJO: SBS has a similarly crazy plan with the Jedi strike team, but unlike ROTJ, where things go against our heroes and they prevail, in SBS the strike team loses the bulk of its members: Jaina goes dark, Jacen is captured, Anakin is dead.

Realistic, perhaps, SW? It's questionable. Would it hapen in the films? Episode 3 notwithstnding, probably not and perhaps not even in ep 3. I do not believe these films will be as dark as others think. No one goes to the cinema to watch a downer of a film after all!

As to NJO's darker mood: It stems from the NR's pointless political paralysis, the deaths are almost incidental besides this. The Vong are destroying worlds, killing, torturing and sacrificing millions and the NR does nothing! We do not see the other side of war where people come together and resolve to support each other through adversity. All we've had is woussy politicians plus an insane cultural pluralism that absolves the Vong of responsibility for their acts: The Jedi did it, they were provoked, they are misunderstood etc. Bleh! THAT's where the darkness of NJO lies, not in the characer deaths.

Would Bantam have done it? I think not. DR has effectively put their eggs in 2 baskets, NJO and Prequels, if you are a Classic Trilogy fan and you do not like NJO due to its departing from the OT's feel (see above) what do you do? Bantam's strategy was less risky: Short stories, trilogies at most until XW which got expanded due to popularity, it was originally a quartet. If you did not like one story you could try another. The villains would be linked to or be Imperial, historical or be a consequence of the Empire's regime. So you have a varied bunch of villains.

It is true that Bantam's fare 1995-1998 was of variable quality. It has been said once they lost the licence their work improved. This is true, Using Zahn's HOT as an end point Bantam released a number of books to resolve remaining plot issues and construct an arc. The books released before this were:

I Jedi
Hand Of Thrawn (Spectre Of The Past & Vision Of The Future)

The books released in the wake of these were:

Tales Of The New Republic
X-Wing 8: Isard's Revenge
X-Wing 9: Starighters Of Adumar

XW8 resolved the Dodonna mystery and XW9 took care of the Wedge/Qwi Xux/Iella triangle.

Combined with the books already published of:

Truce At Bakura
XW 1-7
The Thrawn Trilogy
Dark Empire
The Jedi Academy
Darksaber
The New Rebellion

Plus the end books of Zahn and MAS and you have a fairy consistent arc, but with other more self contained stories floating around.

Bantam went for an optional arc, where you could go for single stories but had the option of constrcting an arc when it was realised one bok made subtle reference to the others, but not so important as to demand you buy the book. I suspect NJO would have been done in this way, with the PBs being truly optional stories. DR have done NJO as a compulsory 20-book series. They may have said the PBs were not needed but the Edge Of Victory series where Mara was cured kills that assertion. Bantam might have done NJO but in a different spirit.

Jedi Ben

 

I am very happy with the NJO so far. The death helps add realism and depth to the series, and to Star Wars EU in general. Also, at the end of VP, Salvatore talks about Han Solo's bubble of invulnerability. He believed the main characters couldn't be killed - he was proven wrong. I think that bubble was not only Solo's - the bubble was ours. We all believed that the main characters would survive for all eternity, until SW EU stopped being made. We were wrong, and I, for one, am happy that the NJO is more realistic.

It is easy for us to say: "Oh the death is depressing. I would be perfectly happy if everyone stayed alive" etc... But in the Bantam era of EU, we've already had alien invasions, warlords en masse, 335623342 kidnappings of the Solo kids, about the same number of superweapons, etc. Through all this, none of the major characters died. I doubt anyone would take the Vong seriously unless something changed.


"People don't read SW to get depressed, I could watch the news for that..."

Oh, please. Keep in mind it IS a story. If you're going to get depressed because a SW character died, then you've got something else coming.

Also, the point of a book isn't necessarily to make people feel better - its to tell a story. Bad things happen in stories!

The death and bad things in the NJO thusfar will make the ending, when the good guys win, all that much more satisfying.

You have to accept a certain degree of realism. How many times can you reasonably expect our heroes to get into, and out of, no win situations?

The death in the NJO has added a completely new dimension to the story, and has not, in my opinion, been excessive.

DarthParth

 

Jedi Ben...
"Would Bantam have done it? I think not. DR has effectively put their eggs in 2 baskets, NJO and Prequels, if you are a Classic Trilogy fan and you do not like NJO due to its departing from the OT's feel (see above) what do you do?"

I don't think this is being fair to Del Rey at all.

If you're Classic Trilogy fan, you were screwed under Bantam too, and would've been had they continued. 8 years or so of having the license, Bantam only produced a total of 6 books or so taking place in that time (discounting flashbacks):
Tales from Mos Eisley Cantina
The Bounty Hunter Wars
Shadows of the Empire
Truce at Bakura

In addition, if you're a fan of this time, there's probably literally hundreds of stories you may not be familiar with - comics, comic strips, etc. You can always check them out. Dark Horse Comics, for instance is reprinting the long-out-of-print Marvel series in its entirety this year.

But, basically, that time period is all filled up. Seriously. The events between ANH and ROTJ can almost be accounted for down to the very day that events occurred on.

I mean, there may possibly be 7 or 8 seconds remaining in the Classic Trilogy era that hasn't been accounted for. I guess if it's a quick adventure, Bantam and/or Del Rey could have crammed a new novel series in that time.

I think to some degree it's unfair to suggest that anyone could crank out new series in that time. I suppose they could go and do ret-con series like what I,Jedi did with JAT. Create uber-characters and begin inserting them in stories where they never were there to begin with. But, it was fairly distasteful when Stackpole did it and would grow even worse if done multiple times to OT stories.

We'd end up with every single event being like the "Death Star Plan" story - everyone and their brother wanted their pet project to have a hand in it's importance. That's something I don't really have an interest in seeing.

 

NJO is definatly darker and more depressing. In the bantam series, it was kind of obvious as to what was gonna happen in the plot in each book, kind of, but one of the main things I enjoy about Star Wars is seeing the characters in a life and death situation and finding a way to get out alive. That is exciting to me.

Believe me, I know this is science fiction and fantasy we're talking about here, and I would like to keep it that way. The deaths and lack of victories for the good guys is getting out of hand.

 

I agree with you Auburn514, Bantam had some very sucessful books, but after a while it was clear that every book had a happy ending where the good guys win and everyone's okay.

Now the NJO has greatly changed that. I'll admit that I didn't appreciate the killing of Chewbacca or Anakin, but in death I realized how much I had cared for them. Now I care more for all of these characters, for fear that they may be gone in the next book.

There have been few happy endings in the NJO books, with the exception of the birth of Ben. All the endings where the good guys lose, or another character dies makes you wonder, what's going to happen next? There's way more suspence in the NJO than there ever was in the Bantam books.

I have a feeling that when the NJO is over, we will have a happy ending that we've all been waiting for, and all of the deaths and losses will make it that much more meaningful.

 

Yes, i did like the getting out alive part, however that situation was particularly tense and good in the X-wing series. Characters that you like, but you know are not important enough for life insurance, are in a very tough situation which they may not get out of alive, that made great reading. I had my heart in my mouth when i was reading the scene when a bunch of Wraiths were dropped into the incinerator.

I also think it's possible that some people may not like the new tension created by the new deaths as much, for a certain reason. They don't feel it's real, because some (not all, but some) have already looked ahead and found out who's going to die, and then they don't get the mood and it feels cheap to them. Note, i said only some people, not all people.

 

Darker mood? Sure, I give Del Rey that. But they have done nothing in my mind to show me the main characters are not invincible. So they killed Chewie. Great. Look, I like the wookie as much as the next guy, but to me, he is not the core group here. Kill off Luke, Leia (PLEASE, kill her off...), Han, Lando.

tanjokabri: Why Anakin? He was Lucas Arts best hope for continuing the Star Wars Saga with a new generation of heros and they killed HIM off? Why? All that did was make everyone ask what the heck they missed because the end all be all character just bought it. Seems to me they just can't get permission from Lucas Arts to kill off the original cast, so they're making great new characters & building them up to kill them off.

 

Ah, I see, right then...

Genghis,

You define Clasic Trilogy as the OT, while Bantam as a separate set of stories? Correct?

I don't. I see Bantam as an extension of the ideas in the CT and thus the spirit of the Classic Trilogy.

Only at the end, years 1997-1999 did Bantam depart from that spirit:

The trilogies mimicked the CT structure, not a bad thing as such but still mimicked it.
stand alone stories like Darksaber and New Rebellion basicaly had the impossible victory over evil a la ROTJ.
Even XW had the ultimate rebellion with wedge and co resigning to fight Isard.

then in 1998 to 1999 there was the arc building, there was Planet of twilight too.

The CT concerned the rebellion, its ideas, the possibility of the dark side of the Force being defeatable and the struggle with the Empire.

Bantam contined to use all those ideas in its books, hence I see Bantam as the extension of the CT. The ideas and execution was close to the films, in terms of the mad spirit I have already described. It may not be have been perfect but what is?

I don't see NJO as representing the same kind of spirit, but that's just how I see it. Part of the problem is that of the 18-20 book saga that is NJO, over half, that is 10 seem focused on the darkness. The 3 films of CT were distinct but about the same length. NJO is like GL remaking the CT and ANH becomes 30 minutes long while ESB balloons to say 6 hours, with ROTJ nowhere in sight but since there is not much room left, it'll be a 2-3 hour finale. It's imbalanced.

Jedi Ben

 

Call me niave and stupid, but the main reason I had always liked Star Wars was because in the end, the good guys win, the bad guys lose, and the good guys always survive. When I read, I like to see characters save-the-universe-and-go-home-safely. I know reality isn't that way, and I like to read books that help me escape into a world where it can be. This is why I tend to prefer the older novels to the NJO. As I said, I know it sounds niave, stupid, and unrealistic on my part, but I figured I'd express my opinion.

 

the dying is good..

"if you cant stand the heat get out of kitchen stadium"

 

Without the dying it would be another Bantam book where the characters were invnicible.

And for those of you who think there's to much death...

People die in war, other wise it would no be a war...

 

it's not real war, it's fantasy war.

As Jedi Ben already pointed out, do you think the odds were in favor of Luke, Leia, Han, Wedge and Chewie surviving The Battle of Yavin, The Battle of Hoth, The Battle of Endor, not to mention the battles that took place between ANH and ESB?

No, it's not realistic because that's not what GL was aiming for. If you saw his biography on A & E, he called himself a romantic.

If you like the NJO, fine, but if you're going to talk about realism, talk about how unrealistic the movies were, and stop criticizing the people that don't read Star Wars for death.

 

Okay, let's try this from a new angle. I challenge the people to come up with completely different story principles than Bantam and Del Rey have used. For those of you uncertain of what i'm asking, i mean come up with a story formula that is not the characters-are-invincible-and-can-save-the-day-before-breakfast technique employed by Bantam, and is not the controversial characters-die-and-lose-battles-then-fight-back-against-a-smart-and-dangerous-enemy technique that is employed in the NJO and is not the Young Jedi/Junior Jedi Knights tactic of having little adventures where kids pull off miracles nad everything seems vitally important but isn't really.

And whatever formula the Prequels are using is forbidden as well. And when you finally come up with this elusive, paradise storyline, and you appreciate how hard it is to come up with something new that everyone likes, why don't you give some credit to Del Rey for trying something different.