PT An idea why midichlorians were unpopular

Not even the story group can agree among themselves what is canon and Lucas never cared about canon or continuity. The 6 original films are the closet thing to a canon.

 

Lucas wasn't relying solely on religion with Anakin. Other mythological heroes have divine origins such as Beowulf. Christ just has the better publicist. But being a chosen one doesn't mean you're divine. Neo is the One, but no religion exists with him. He's a human imbued with programming from the Matrix and was part of a cyclic program like his predecessors, yet he winds up being the only one who breaks the cycle and changes everything. Liu Kang is the chosen one in "Mortal Kombat", the one who will defeat Shang Tsung and Shao Kahn, in order to save the Earth Realm. But he is completely human, with human parents.

Lucas even says that within the film, Palpatine raises doubt as to whether the Force created Anakin, or if the Sith did. So he is a hero, but not a savior like Christ who will redeem people for their sins.

Right, Valorum is who I am referring to as the Jedi turned Sith turned Jedi again.That idea was there early on. As Lucas went along, that backstory served as the basis for where he would take Vader and in turn, once ANH came out, he began moving that way. Lucas stated that TESB and ROTJ was his way of getting his abandoned ideas out there. By the rough draft of ROTJ and the revised version, Lucas moved closer when Palpatine realizes that Luke isn't the Skywalker that he should be worried about, but instead it's Vader.

I'm referring to Valorum. He was the template from the beginning. Likewise, Lucas said in the story meetings for ROTJ, that Palpatine had spent time with Anakin and had been the one to turn him to the dark side. The exact nature of how he did it wasn't discussed, but that it happened during that period of time between the Clone Wars and the fall of the Republic.

Lucas wrote AOTC based off of what was established in TESB and ROTJ, which is that a Jedi can fall to the dark side if they let fear, anger and hate dictate their actions. Those actions center around attachment to people. Particularly, Luke's attachment to his friends.

Lucas also said as much about not thinking they're evil.

"One of the issues in all of this is the bad guys think they’re good and Lord Sidious thinks he’s bringing peace to the galaxy because there is so much corruption and confusion and chaos going on and now he’s going to be able to straighten everything out which maybe true but the price the galaxy is going to have to pay for it is way too much."

--George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.

But even though Anakin does evil things, there is always that goodness within him. Not fully driven out by Palpatine.

"There's always this good in you. And the good part is saying 'what am I doing?'. Then the bad part kicks in and says 'I'm doing this for Padme, I'm doing this for the galaxy and so we can have a better life'. But the good part is always saying 'WHAT AM I DOING?!"

--George Lucas to Hayden Christensen, Hyperspace webdoc.

"This is the first time he actually has a chance to think about what it is that’s happened by himself and the tear here shows that he knows what he’s done, but he’s now committed himself to a path that he may not agree with, but he is going to go along anyway.

It’s the one moment that says he’s self aware. He rationalizing all his behavior. He’s doing terrible things. But in the end he really knows the truth. He knows that he’s evil now and there’s nothing he can do about it and that’s the moment where the pathos of him being stuck in that suit is real because if he had to do it over he probably wouldn’t do it but he can't stop it now.

You know where it's going to lead. He knows it will end with a fight with Obi-wan. He knows that Padme will not buy into this new reality. He made a pact with the devil and now he’s become the devil.

The sad thing is Padme says there is still good in him and Luke says in ROTJ there is good in you. Its recurring. There is good in him. And that will bring balance to the Force. He needs to get rid of the Sith and bring balance to the Force."

--George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.

Much of what I said above applies. All evil is pathetic, but that doesn't mean it isn't evil. It means we can empathize with someone who commits it, and see that we might be capable of evil as well. But it does not undo what he has done. I would quibble with the idea that he redeems himself, I would prefer to say he turns toward good. He doesn't really have to pay a price for his massive crimes, and I don't think killing the Emperor satisfies that. But atonement is a whole other issue.[/quote]


That's what Lucas also says.

"It really has to do with learning," Lucas says, "Children teach you compassion. They teach you to love unconditionally. Anakin can't be redeemed for all the pain and suffering he's caused. He doesn't right the wrongs, but he stops the horror."

--George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 221.

He is redeemed because he becomes good again, but he cannot make up for his sins.

 

Thanks for your response. Can't answer your whole post atm, but my issue is not solely the presence of a divine origin. I don't need him to be perfect or divine, but if he's a savior figure, I want him to do more good than bad at the least. Assuming the basic prophecy is that the Chosen One will 'bring balance to the Force/destroy the Sith,' I think Anakin's/Darth Vader's actions disqualify him. Does he destroy the Sith? Yes, but he also destroys the Jedi! He helps give rise to the Empire. He brought a great degree of imbalance to the Force by aiding Palpatine, killing the Jedi, etc. What a crappy savior!

I just don't think GL's explanation of the prophecy is satisfying. The whole thing is a mess...who gave this prophecy? When did they give it? What did the prophecy say exactly? Is there a text that had to be translated? (It's seems pretty difficult to find a singular version online, if there was one.) His construction, introduction, breakdown(s) of this prophecy are just really muddled and sloppy. It's supposed to be a centerpiece of the tragedy of his fall, but we don't know anything about it. Is it balance to the Force, or to destroy the Sith? We hear both versions in the movies. And GL has to explain the balance part in interviews, but there are two competing ideas here...is it yin yang (i.e. we need a balance of light and dark?) or is it like ripples in a pond (evil is a corruption of good)? These two ideas contradict each other -- when you try to, ahem, force Eastern and Western ideas together like this, it doesn't work very well. Best to deal with these concepts very nebulously, IMO, as ANH did.

As a counter-example, I think George R.R. Martin's use of prophecy in A Song of Ice and Fire and how it can be tricky and ambiguous is really well done. It's fun to speculate about the different interpretations and fun to see how the characters wrestle with it.

 

Should Anakin even be considered the Chosen One anymore? Ok in Legends yes of course he was the chosen one because GL said so. I'm fine with that. But now Disney is calling the shots & evrthing is canon if its in a movie, book, comic etc, etc.

Obi thought he was the One but Yoda did say that the prophesy may of been misread. Is there anything in the new that 100% confirms he was the One other than a Pablo tweet?

 

I am sure this has already been said, I don't plan on reading the entire thread.

The reason the concept of midichlorians was unpopular is simple. Any attempt to explain "The Force" by biological / scientific means completely undermines its mystical element, and removes the idea that anybody can use the force as long as they believe. That created a massive disconnect for the viewers, who previously bought into that mythos.

 

Pablo Hidalgo explained the story group's view on midis and PT Jedi a few months back:

"I think people understandably got caught up in the whole midi-chlorian thing. They thought you must have X no. of midis to use the Force.

No, the midi-prereq was to enter the prequel-era Jedi Order. It's a rather soulless way to look at potential, by narrative design.

The prequel Jedi have systemized their methods at the expense of spirituality and intuition. They are more 'Order' than 'Jedi.'

But there's more to the Force than just Jedi/Sith. There's more to potential than midis. Just like there's more to genius than grades."

 

Pablo and his merry band of story group buddies are not right on the narrative at all. But what do I expect from them anyways..

 

The Story Group can say whatever it wants. Their job is to toe the line set by Disney and in this new Disney era, midi-chlorians are out, because Disney Star Wars is all about giving the fans what Disney thinks they want. That isn't surprising.

But it has nothing to do with the original six-film Lucas saga. Lucas's statements and views about the role midi-chlorians play in determining Force potential are pretty darn clear. Pablo's statements reflect Disney corporate policy, not the artistic intent behind the original saga.

 

Palpatine was already going to destroy the Jedi, all Anakin did was help him. Anyway, the Chosen One wasn't meant to be anything more than what we see in ROTJ. The actions of the Chosen One before he fulfills his destiny were of his own volition and the result of the choices he made. Anakin does things that are both good and bad in his life, but what matters more is that he final act of goodness is the thing that saves not only himself and his son, but the galaxy as a whole.

The origin of the prophecy is unimportant. The importance of the prophecy is that it is a MacGuffin. It's there, but the real centerpiece of the storyline is Anakin's journey from Jedi to Sith and back again. But the point of the prophecy is that the Sith are going to destroy the balance to the Force, which is mentioned in the films. In TPM, Yoda states that the dark side is hard to see and Qui-gon concludes that Anakin is the Chosen One based on the return of the Sith and his own unique biology. In AOTC, Yoda and Mace discuss their dwindling powers and conclude that the Sith know this and would exploit it. After the Battle of Geonosis, Yoda says that the shroud of the dark side has fallen. In ROTS, Obi-wan states that Anakin was to destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force, not join them and leave the galaxy in darkness. In ROTJ, Palpatine cannot sense Luke's arrival at Endor, while Vader can. Nor can he sense the conflict within Vader that Luke does. Finally, Anakin kills Palpatine and then dies himself a few minutes later. Thus, the Force is becoming balanced again.

 

So you're saying we're supposed to take the prophecy, skip/ignore all the events between his discovery by the Jedi and his killing Palps? Doesn't work for me. He killed Sand People, he killed Jedi and Jedi younglings, yet his final act matters more? I can't go there friend. (He could have stopped Palpatine when Mace had him down too! Crisis averted! How do we know Palpatine would have been 100% successful in killing the Jedi by himself?-- feels like speculation to me, ymmv.

Well, yes, the prophecy makes Anakin a bit of a MacGuffin. But why is it unimportant then? If there is a savior figure coming, I want to know who is telling me about it so I can decide whether or not I care. What are the words, who wrote it, how is translated and interpreted? I agree with you that the real centerpiece of the PT is Anakin's journey. No issues there. I don't agree that his redemption is the centerpiece of the OT, seems unsuccessful retcon in my eyes. Luke and co. are the protagonists, theirs' is the story we follow in the OT. I just can't go there with Lucas and PT fans that it's all Darth Vader's story. It seems the connective tissue is disjointed.

Re: the bold. Exactly! He should therefor not be regarded as the Chosen One. Let Luke be the Chosen One! He turns the tide, he makes the good moral choice. I would have much less of an issue if GL had said Anakin failed and the prophecy was mistaken or misread.

Re: the Force being balanced again. Wow, if that is how the Force runs things, I want to live in another galaxy! Quite a cost for balance. Choose someone who won't destroy the galaxy before he 'saves it' please.

 

Good save, IMO.

Darth Sinister, I feel like we're overstaying our welcome in the midi thread. Feel free to respond here, but if you want to continue the conversation about prophecy and other things, maybe we should create a Star Wars Saga In Depth Thread.

 

So the word Midi-chlorian will never be seen, heard or mentioned again in nucanon? Even in a casual conversation between non Force users?

 

Pablos's Tweets don't even makes sense just taking the films into account and ignoring all of Lucas's statements, because he lists Qui-Gon as someone who exemplifies the type of Jedi who didn't buy into the importance of midi-chlorians, even though he's the one who orders a midi-chlorian test for Anakin to confirm his suspicions of his Force sensitivity and and acts as the main mouthpiece introducing and explaining midi-chlorians to the audience.

 

Well in that case whatever Lucasfilm is doing under the Disney banner is very much in line with Lucas' history of retconning and altering his vision for the Star Wars saga.

 

It boils down to money, Jedi are much more marketable if "anyone" can become a Jedi.

Of course Dalaks are very marketable despite being genetic engineered mutants, you can' t just join them.

 

How about the fact that many people simply didn't like the dogmatic depiction of the Jedi, and their science kit. If that means it's more marketable whatever, but I for one am happy they're moving more towards the spiritual side of things.

 

Lucas's retconning and altering almost always only related to minor cosmetic details, while the underlying thematic and philosophical content remained the same.

Science doesn't equal dogma. That's Fundamentalist claptrap. Science is all about freethinking and a sense of wonder about the universe. It's complementary to spirituality, not exclusionary to it.

edit: Also, the Jedi don't even care about Anakin's midi-chlorian count. They don't want to train him because he's too old and has too much anger in him:

YODA : ...Correct you were, Qui-Gon.

MACE WINDU : His cells contain a high concentration of midi-chlorians.

KI-ADI : The Force is strong with him.

QUI-GON : He's to be trained, then.

The COUNCIL MEMBERS look to one another.

MACE WINDU : No. He will not be trained.

ANAKIN is crestfallen; tears begin to form in his eyes.

QUI-GON : No??!!

OBI-WAN smiles.

MACE WINDU : He is too old. There is already too much anger in him.

They all agree that Anakin has a high potential for Force training, but they don't want to train him because he has already become burdened with too much negative emotional baggage. It's the same reason Yoda initially doesn't want to train Luke in TESB, and only reluctantly relents due to Ben's prodding and the urgency of the situation. Where's the dogma? Where's the disconnect from the OT? I'm not seeing it.

 

You misread my post. I am a scientist, so no need to explain the fundamentals of science to me. However, I feel the Jedi are dogmatic in the PT, and too preoccupied with predestination rather than freedom of choice, perfectly examplified by Yoda's remark that Anakin's future is clouded. Allways in motion is the future, and the future is what we make it. Additionally I never liked the idea of the Jedi measuring Anakin's Force potential through scientific means, which to me is like measuring someone's spirituality. So, my complaints of the Jedi being dogmatic and using their science kit are not linked.

 

Yes, his final act matters more because he brings balance to the Force by destroying the Sith, which includes himself. That's what the Chosen One is; the one who destroys the Sith. His actions leading to that moment, both good and bad, were the result of choices he made. He could have made the right choices all along, but he doesn't. His final act is what matters. And no, the minute he chose to slice off Mace's hand, there was no going back. That very act would condemn him and Padme. That's why he collapses and yells, "What have I done?" He didn't want that to happen, but it did and now he has to go through with it. And yes, the plan would be successful without Anakin. Order 66 killed most of the Jedi. The few who would be left would have been dealt with by Maul and the Stormtroopers.

The origins of it are unimportant. What matters is that it was foretold that the Sith would disrupt the balance of the Force and at the same time, an individual who is strong in the Force will restore the balance by destroying the Sith. It could have been a Jedi who had a vision of the future, or a Jedi who used a Jedi and Sith Holocron together and had a vision of the future, as we saw this season on "Rebels".

The two Star Wars trilogies share many characters but have different structures. Instead of telling another heroic coming-of-age story, Lucas has crafted the prequels a historical drama, at whose center is Anakin Skywalker. His story is tragic; that of the Republic-turned-Empire, uncomfortably familiar. Anakin begins as a nine-year-old boy who is physically enslaved. He ends the prequel saga a spiritual and mental slave to the Emperor, who is his metaphorical if not biological father....

But the end of Revenge of the Sith is not the end of Anakin, whose story really closes when it merges with those of his children, Luke and Leia, in Return of the Jedi.

Anakin Skywalker's final confrontation with the Emperor occurs during Luke's final confrontation with the Emperor, which compliments his father's dealings with the same man many years earlier. Indeed the life of the father and the life of the son are commentaries on each other.

"The Star Wars saga is like a symphony, which has recurring themes," he adds, "You have one theme orchestrated in a particular way and place, which then comes back orchestrated as a minor theme somewhere else. There are these little threads running through things that are constantly turning events on their head. You see two people confronting the same things, with different ends. It's a rhythm. I like the idea of seeing something from a different perspective. An advantage I have in this particular situation is that I have literally twelve hours to tell a story. It has the epic quality of following one person from the time he's nine years old to the time he dies. It's Anakin's story, but obviously there are many other characters in that story- his children, his best friend- and their stories carry through. So this isn't just a tune- it's a symphony. When you do it as a symphony, I think it actually becomes beautiful."

--George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 221.

"It's a downer, the saving grace is that if you watch the other three movies, then you know everything ends happily ever after. Nevertheless, I now have to make a movie that works by itself, but which also works with this six-hour movie and this overall twelve-hour movie. I'll have two six-hour trilogies, and the two will beat against each other: One's the fall, one's the redemption. They have different tonalities but it's meant to be one experience of twelve hours."

--George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith, page 62.

Yoda doesn't deny that in the PT. What he says is that Anakin's future is uncertain. He could turn out fine and become a great Jedi, but he could also become a threat. His path is more difficult to see because of his emotional attachments. Just as Han and Leia's fates are uncertain, because something could change. But other paths are easier to see. Obi-wan saw Luke's destiny was different from his. Qui-gon tells Yoda that there are many paths, but his destiny is clear. That he will train Luke and in turn will help Anakin one day.

 

I agree with you. They are dogmatic in that sense. But that has nothing to do with midi-chlorians.

e: I have no problem with the Jedi being able to measure the potential for developing Force powers through scientific means because, as I've pointed out repeatedly, Force powers aren't what the Force is actually all about. Having lots of midi-chlorians means you'll be better at developing all kinds of cool superpowers, but cool superpowers are ultimately not what wins the day. The power of compassion is what wins the day.

Being able to do things like read minds and move objects telekinetically are all part of the science-fictiony, comic-booky side of the Force. They're connected to the spiritual side of the Force, but they themselves really don't have much to do with it. The spiritual side of the Force is all about ideas and philosophical issues.

 

I am afraid to ask.. but what did the new Disney Story Group have to say about Midi's?

I went back a few pages to see if it was stated by someone, but, didn't see it.

Did see an absolutely awesome few posts by Cryogenic !!!

So what was said about the Midi's now?

 

Exactly.

This:

Pablo Hidalgo explained the story group's view on midis and PT Jedi a few months back:

"I think people understandably got caught up in the whole midi-chlorian thing. They thought you must have X no. of midis to use the Force.

No, the midi-prereq was to enter the prequel-era Jedi Order. It's a rather soulless way to look at potential, by narrative design.

Does not line up with Qui-Gon view of them in TPM or as seen further in TCW.

Now it may line with with the Jedi Order to some degree but as we see in TPM they didn't care about Anakin's count. That is not the reason why he was taken in.

I don't think that taking PH's tweets all that seriously is the best starting place (hardly in depth analysis) and as DF has said he isn't scared of them:

http://comicbook.com/starwars/2016/...wrunner-dave-filoni-defends-and-explains-mid/

 

Thanks, Mike!

I actually had a (loosely) pending comment on those comments myself!

The Disney "Story Group" comments, that is.

Let me see if I can get to it tomorrow.