An observation: DW to LotF

Just a random observation, as am currently rereading Destiny's Way... Here's a quote that seems wonderfully prescient given the way LotF went:

"I'm more sure than ever that Jacen has a special destiny." He [Luke] turned to Mara and squeezed her hand.

Mara's eyes widened. "Do you think Jacen himself knows his destiny?"

"I don't know. And I don't know if he would accept it if he did - he's always questioned his purpose as a Jedi, and even the meaning of the Force. I can't imagine him not questioning any fate that lay in store for him." His thoughts darkened, and he looked at Mara soberly. "And a special destiny is not always something joyous, or easy to bear. My father had a special destiny, and see where it took him."

Mara's look turned grave. "We must help him," she said.

"If he'll let us. He hasn't always been cooperative that way."

Quite a nice piece of prose, given the way it all went!

 

Ayuh.

 

This is the one that caught my attention:

In regards to the original quote, this is one of the reasons why I think Jacen falling is a compelling idea in concept, even if it lacked in execution. The NJO played up Jacen's destiny as a big thing, and it makes for an interesting twist that it was realized in the opposite way from what they expected, and where he was heading as of the end of the NJO. Playing on the ambiguity of what it means to have a special destiny is something with a lot of potential.

 

Remember, Destiny's Way was the beginning of JINO and the second Vergere.

 

wow, i forgot about these things in DW completely
very cool, and something that definitely fits nicely with Jacen's fall

its like Anakin Skywalker having a special destiny and everyone assuming he will be a hero and save them all

 

Eh... it's been awhile since I've read DW, so I can't speak with certainty, but I'm inclined to disagree. If I'm remembering right, WJW had a pretty good grasp on Vergere and her philosophy.

 

You're right, Dart. It is amazingly prescient, especially the part about Anakin Skywalker/Vader having a "special destiny" and "look at where it took him". It's almost foretelling of what would come. Then there's also the part where Mara says that they need to help Jacen and Luke again very prophetically says, "If he'll let us. He hasn't always been cooperative that way."

Jacen definitely *wasn't* very cooperative when others tried to talk to him in DN and in LotF. And he wasn't very forthright or communicative about what he was doing either. He didn't even share what he had learned on his five year journey.

Great catch, Dart!

Lord Hydronian that was a very chilling passage that you quoted, given what happened in Invincible.

 

Huh?

JINO?

Second Vergere? What do you mean by that statement?

 

She means it's where Vergere's philosophy goes from a rewording of Yoda's teachings in TESB to a complete 180.

That being said, characters remaining exactly the same from book to book is simply lazy writing, IMO.

 

JINO = Jacen In Name Only. It's a phrase used by some to suggest that Jacen underwent an inexplicable character change (usually used in a negative context).

Second Vergere is referring to the fact that Vergere's philosophies as presented in Traitor were slowly turned into a simplified version of "the ends justify the means," when in Traitor that is kind of explicitly something she does not agree with. At least, that's the way I understand the change in the presentation of her views. Others may disagree, but I think there's compelling objective evidence that her views were changed even if the method in which they were changed is not quite as I describe it.

Basically her views were incredibly complex and at times seemed contradictory which is probably why they were so inconsistantly drawn afterwards. There's a link in Katana_Geldar's sig to a very interesting essay on the subject.

Personally if there's a break in Jacen's characterisation I think it's between TUF and DNT, but it's still one I can reconcile with him having been away for five years. But I think that's when he changed and became more prone to falling to the dark side. So I'm not someone who generally uses phrases such as JINO.

But I definitely think there were some very large misrepresentations of Vergere in the back half of the NJO culminating in DNT (which I actually quite like) getting it exactly backwards and LOTF actually attempting to retcon her as a Sith. This is something I'm personally very disappointed in.

Like Trip, I seem to remember that WJW actually had a resonable handle on her views, but it's been a while since I've read it so I could very well be wrong. But I also wouldn't be surprised if this was where some of the smaller revisions to her beliefs began.

On topic: JK & Hydro - those are great quotes. Thank you! It's always wonderful to find stuff that works well with later developments. Like Hydro, I have some issues with the execution, but I'm still really on board with the broad outline of the LOTF story, and stuff like this only confirms to me that it was a good decision in principle.

 

Personally if there's a break in Jacen's characterisation I think it's between TUF and DNT, but it's still one I can reconcile with him having been away for five years. But I think that's when he changed and became more prone to falling to the dark side. So I'm not someone who generally uses phrases such as JINO.


The seeds were there in DW, but I don't like to quote myself...

 

Ooooh. That is nice. Encapsulates everything. That's main quote material right there.

 

Glad you guys like it! In fact, reading DW is actually beginning to make me a little more comfortable with the direction of LotF, if not the actual execution (which, like others, I have issues with). It's also pleasing to see, as early as this, hints of the breach between Luke and Jacen. Initially in Destiny's Way, Luke is so ecstatic to have Jacen back; afterards he 'gets to grips' with Vergere, learning why she did what she did. Significantly, he and Jacen are then stuck on a ship together with a small bunch for months - an arrangement I think Luke may well have intended as time to see how Jacen has changed. And Jacen in FH is barely different to Jacen pre-Traitor, but more comfortable with himself is all. I can understand Luke's being relieved.

Then, of course, there comes Jacen's five-year journey; and whatever happened there, given what's yet to come. And the destiny is fulfilled, but as darkly as Luke feared. We could argue that, since as far back as DW Luke is admitting Jacen's independence, this sets a precedent for his fairly weak attempts to redeem Jacen; their relationship doesn't have as deep an understanding as a first reading of Betrayal suggests (Jacen's future decisions prove that, I reckon).

 

I noticed this years ago, JW.

 

Yeah, I think Traitor-Vergere and DW-Vergere line up well, and don't see the revision to her character there that Katana mentions.

 

It's transitional, there are some elements of Traitor Vergere and some elements of DN Vergere.

 

Well, I know you've said that and we've debated over it, but I just don't see it. She's just as concerned with actions over intent as she is in Traitor; the idea of Vergere as an ends-over-means character only crops up in later books.

 

Well, you are entitled to your opinion.

 

Lets be fair. Hang upside down in a mechanism that squeezes your bones to the brink of breaking and would anyone come out rocking like a Metallica song?