PT Anakin and Luke's journeys ultimately run totally inverse to each other

Interesting how one trilogy uses this imagery to tell the story of a young man who, despite being initially a bit reckless and impulsive, is a fundamentally good person who matures into a wise Jedi Knight, while the other trilogy uses it to tell the story of a man who spent his entire adult life as an evil, murderous psychopath with virtually no redeeming qualities. There are literally only two scenes where we ever see Anakin Skywalker being a good person as an adult:





But I can definitely see how they’re opposites.

 

Kuro, don't derail this thread too.

HevyDevy This is some serious work you've put into this. It will always amaze me how GL could make two trilogies sooo different, yet they are so similar in many ways.

I especially like the shots that ewoksimon included with Anakin deciding between Mace or Sidious, and then the shot of Vader deciding between Luke and Sidious. I've never noticed how obvious the mirroring is there, but it really packs a punch.
Vader was probably thinking, "Wait a minute, I've been here before. If I recall correctly, I made a poor life decision last time."

 

Thanks for reading it. I wasn't sure if I was making my points clear on some of them.


The Anakin/Vader pivotal moments link I thought was relatively obvious. Luke is certainly an "anti-Palpatine" mirrored good influence on Vader in ROTJ to Palpatine's bad influence on Anakin in ROTS.

Notice both Palpatine and Luke sense, and play on, two opposite conflicts in Anakin and Vader. And both "father" (Palps) and "son" (Luke) earlier turned themselves over to Anakin/Vader and put their fate in his hands.

As Anakin/Vader watches on; This culminates with Mace losing his temper when Sidious doesn't go quietly, and attempts to kill Sidious... Relative to The Emperor losing his temper when Luke rejects the dark side, and attempts to kill Luke.

Both times, Palpatine's and Luke's confidence that Anakin will ultimately side with them proves fruitful. Making Anakin turning his back on the Sith at ROTJ's climax all the more satisfying and ironic, Imo. He left the Jedi when everyone in the room was putting themselves first (Mace, Palpatine, and Anakin), and returns to the Jedi when Luke is willing to give up everything.

 

That's some good bait, my mate.

 

Lol.

Yeah, Kuro is exaggerating the "horror" of adult Anakin as presented in the films.

"Literally only two scenes we see Anakin as a good person as an adult?"
This is either intentionally selectively ignoring chunks of AOTC and ROTS to suit and agenda, or having a very cynical and pessimistic filter for everything that is shown inspired by a general disappointment in the films, and focusing on how Anakin acts (pre-turn) in just some of his scenes.

I admit I'm not a raving fan of Anakin's characterisation in AOTC, but he is generally presented (besides scenes regarding his mother's demise) as deep down wanting to do the right thing. And the Shmi arc is supposed to be like that, it's his tragic flaw that while doesn't override his actions in other parts of the film, we get a significant hint that it is there.

The timeline presented in the PT can make things difficult, particularly with regards to transitioning TPM to AOTC. But purposely ignoring the artist's intent because of a grudge and not reconciling the two incarnations of the central character is a mistake. Much of what Anakin says in AOTC fills in the somewhat mysterious period between the first two films, albeit better in the AOTC script. For example, his descriptions of Naboo as a symbolic tranquil and happier place, and the reference "home was always wherever my mom was" gives you the impression that he never felt truly at peace within the Order on Coruscant. And it is mostly on Naboo where he and Padme fall in love.

ROTS is a complex subject to me. It's pretty obvious Anakin has grown wiser at the beginning of the film, but this is essentially just a tease at what "could have been" as the film progresses and spirals. One thing I will say is that values and ideals that Anakin is taught from childhood are ultimately used against him in the end. To ignore that 23 year old Anakin is derived from the boy who just wanted to help everyone is to misunderstand his motivations and drives in ROTS, and dilutes how events really chain fatefully to make his intentions more gradually transform - than it appears if you just watch in isolation his giving into fear and greed by sealing Mace's death at the Sith's hands.


And if ROTJ is to be taken as an indicator, then Luke, if he killed Vader, would ultimately join Palpatine and destroy everything he and his friends had fought for? I can envision that he would try to attack The Emperor and gradually be beaten into subservience then pledge to the dark side, but it still relies on a highly mystical and not logic-based universe to be believable. How can you apply to this filter to one trilogy and not the other when it is essentially the same story?

 

Luke Skywalker never murdered children. Luke wasn’t vindictive, and didn’t blame all of his life problems on others, unlike his father, who always blamed all of his life problems on Obi-Wan Kenobi. Luke never strangled a pregnant woman, whom he pretended that he was trying to save. Luke never felt that he was entitled to be all-powerful, unlike his father, who constantly whines that Obi-Wan is the horrible meaniehead for not showing him the quick and easy path to becoming all-powerful.

Frankly, I see no difference between Anakin Skywalker (as an adult) and Joffrey from GAME OF THRONES. They’re the exact same character. Petulant, entitled whiners who brutalize and murder anybody who makes them unhappy or doesn’t let them get their way 100% of the time. Not to mention that the non-friendship between Anakin and Obi-Wan is pretty much the same as the dynamic between Joffrey and his uncle, Tyrion Lannister. The main difference being that Tyrion has long since completely given up on Joffrey even before the series begins, whereas Obi-Wan doesn’t give up on Anakin until the end of REVENGE OF THE SITH. Anakin is far, far closer to Joffrey than he is to Luke. If only Tyrion could be transplanted into the STAR WARS universe. Then we’d at least have a bunch of scenes where Tyrion insults Anakin, slaps him, and points out what a pathetic and horrid little wretch of a human being he really is. If Anakin is a good person, then so is Joffrey.

In an earlier thread, I’d compared Anakin to Travis Bickle, but that’s unfair. Anakin is far more evil, far more dangerous and far more disturbed than Travis ever was. I mean, compare the way they handle children. Anakin murders children at least once in each prequel film where he’s an adult. Travis, on the other hand, wants to save a child from an abusive procurer. Frankly, aside from Joffrey, it really is hard for me to think of a fictional character more loathsome than Anakin. Seriously. Hannibal Lecter was a better human being than Anakin was. Norman Bates was a better human being than Anakin was. Alex from A CLOCKWORK ORANGE was a better human being than Anakin was. Even Malcolm McDowell’s Caligula was a better human being than Anakin was. At least Lecter was courteous towards Clarice Starling and made a genuine effort to help her find Buffalo Bill. Alex lacks Anakin’s vindictiveness and seems incredibly quick to forgive the government that just brutalized and tortured him. And at least Caligula genuinely cared for his sister and never attempted to murder her. If anything, Anakin himself was a better person after being encased in the metal suit and becoming Darth Vader.

 

I do agree with you on that, Luke is fittingly an all-around good guy, it is who he really is and his era and circumstances certainly aid this. Imo he is not destined for failure like Anakin seems doomed to be. There are several point in Anakin's story where if things went differently it could have saved him. Luke seems more blessed that his opportunities and the choices he makes line up to ultimately benefit him. But yeah, he is arguably just a better person than Anakin as well.

But I did mention in my last post that, pre-turn, this is only one moment specific to Anakin's mother's death. It is Anakin's major flaw, his weakness, he is incredibly loyal to those close to him and it costs him dearly. Everything indicating potential evil in him within TPM and AOTC can be traced back to that. It's how he is raised, how he is wired.

Again, I agree, but you see more vindictiveness in Anakin than I do. Apart from the Tuskens, Anakin shows little vindictiveness to anyone pre-turn. Killing the Tusken village was easily going way too far, but it is set up that the invisible bondage Anakin perceives (first as a slave with no control over his or his mother's own destinies, then feeling similarly powerless as a Jedi) plays on him until circumstances lead him to his mother at just the wrong time and it all explodes. He has become a Jedi supposedly to free himself and those he cares about, and help the galaxy, and it doesn't seem to be coming to fruition in his thirteen years of training like he'd hoped.

Blamed all of his life problems on Obi-Wan? He mentions it twice in AOTC. He tells Padme in her apartment that Obi-Wan is restrictive in his training, Padme reminding Anakin that it is the nature of a mentorship to emphasise his flaws so he can grow, which Anakin concedes to.
While Obi-Wan's reasons may be sound, it is proven to be true that he holds Anakin back; when we see Obi-Wan tell Yoda and Mace that their decision to give Anakin his first assignment is wrong. He cites Anakin's arrogance as a reason, and while true, is also true of most Jedi we see in the films. Anakin is more than capable of an assignment by then. Contrast it to Qui-Gon telling the Council Obi-Wan is ready for the trials, or Yoda telling Luke "No more training do you require". Interestingly by ROTS Obi-Wan seems to trust Anakin a lot more, but tragically the trust is perhaps misplaced by now, and arguably comes too late.
The second mention that Obi-Wan is holding Anakin back I can kind of see your point on. It's the confession scene in the Lars garage. I've always had a bit of a problem with the writing of this scene, particularly regarding Anakin's somewhat out of place "It's all Obi-Wan's fault!" when Anakin has done something proportionately not really done justice by this statement. I understand the intent is he is lamenting not getting to his mother in time because of Jedi restrictions, the pent up frustration is coming out in awkward ways stemming from his own feeling of inadequacy in not saving her in time, but it could be done better. His mention that Obi-Wan is jealous is perhaps (from a writing perspective) a reference to the fact that Obi-Wan is more like a brother (orphans from Qui-gon) than the father he needs to be.

I have heard it theorised that Obi-Wan represents Anakin's conscience.
Anakin stubbornly mentions he and Padme don't need Obi-Wan's help several times in ROTS. Quite fitting that he wants to fix everything himself, when the dark side's focus on yourself encourages just that.
Palpatine name drops Obi-Wan during his orders for Vader to attack the Jedi Temple. This is to make certain Anakin is willing to sever all ties to the good in himself and kill without hesitation.
Finally, Anakin falsely believes Obi-Wan has corrupted Padme during their confrontation on Mustafar, he cannot admit to himself what he has become.
Vader seeing it as some great victory when he kills Obi-Wan in ANH is very appropriate now.

I wouldn't say pretended, he is pretty dedicated to this until far into his slide. But yes, you have to ask who he is really saving her for.
It is part of the irony, his main reason for joining Sidious is to save Padme, but after using the dark side for an extended period he loses sight of this (as Sidious probably sneakily predicted) and ends up hurting the one person he wanted to help. I don't blame Obi-Wan, but he could easily have mentioned Padme didn't know he was there. Both Anakin and Obi-Wan seem too angry and selfish in this scene to really be thinking about what Padme actually wanted.

As I said earlier on this thread, Obi-Wan in AOTC kind of ironically fills the constrictive role of Owen for Luke in ANH, whereas Obi-Wan frees Luke in ANH. Both Skywalkers, age 19, are pretty whiny in this regard.
Luke gives Obi-Wan and Yoda the kind of unquestioning respect that Anakin only has for Qui-Gon and Palpatine. For whatever reason, Anakin by AOTC doesn't seem to have the same blind faith in Obi-Wan.

Anakin's quest for ultimate power doesn't dominate his actions until ROTS. It is hinted at in TPM and particularly AOTC with Shmi's arc, but he is always fighting against it (AOTC - "Im a Jedi, I know I'm better than this!" ... ROTS - "I'm not the Jedi I should be.") until Palpatine drives the situation to a point where Anakin finally gives in. It is here, on pledging to the dark side, that his motivations and original intentions fast become warped. It's just how the dark side works.


Lastly, your mention of Clockwork Orange's Alex. I would say Alex openly revels in and enjoys being evil a lot more than Anakin. Anakin/Vader really see it as a means to an end, more and more as he slides.

 

Yeah, that’s the main thing. Luke is simply a better person than his father.

One mass murder is more than enough.

He expresses plenty of bitterness, resentment and vindictiveness towards Obi-Wan.

I actually think Obi-Wan was right to claim that Anakin wasn’t ready for that assignment. Look at it this way. Obi-Wan has to know that Anakin has spent the last decade harboring a crush on her (Anakin is the dictionary definition of an open book that wears his emotions on his sleeve). He’s aware that Anakin’s ability to control and regulate his emotions…Wait, let me rephrase that.

He’s fully aware that Anakin’s impulse control is absolutely zero. He’s aware that the idea of emotional regulation is non-existent in Anakin’s vocabulary. He knows perfectly well that the concept that maybe you shouldn’t immediately act on every emotion you have and that it might be a good idea to think things through before acting is completely foreign and alien to Anakin. So he realizes that putting these two together is the bad idea to end all bad ideas, especially since his training was prophesied to bring great danger to the galaxy. So of course, with all of those factors being undeniably true, the brilliant Council still decides to go ahead with it in all their infinite wisdom. And we all know how well that turned out.

Well, I’m not convinced that Anakin ever really gave a damn about her or her wants, needs and desires in the first place. I strongly get the impression that he’d simply become obsessed with an idealized fantasy that he’d spent the last decade concocting in his mind, and that she was simply the physical embodiment of that sick obsession. Kinda like Hitchcock’s VERTIGO, actually…except that Lucas is far more disingenuous about it than Hitchcock was.

Luke actually had legitimate complaints against his uncle, and his desires were far more relatable. Luke simply wanted his independence and to build his own life. And while he was certainly frustrated with Uncle Owen, I don’t get the sense that he ever had the feelings of bitterness, resentment hatred and hostility towards Owen that his father felt towards Obi-Wan.

Hinted at is a remarkable understatement.

NATALIE PORTMAN: You’re not all-powerful, Annie.
ANAKIN SKYWALKER: Well, I should be! Someday I will be! I will be the most powerful Jedi ever! I promise you![…]It’s all Obi-Wan’s fault [that I’m not all-powerful]! He’s jealous! He’s holding me back!

I hate Anakin.

Number of children that Alex murdered: 0.

Alex also has charisma and social skills, two qualities that Anakin totally lacks. Plus, Alex doesn’t seem particularly power-hungry the way Anakin does. He doesn’t feel the need to make the entire world bow to his every whim and have complete fascistic dictatorial control over everybody the way Anakin does. Alex is a thoroughly horrible human being, no doubt. It’s just that Anakin is even worse. Besides, I could flip your argument and say that at least Alex is at least self-aware and honest about his true nature, whereas Anakin hypocritically wraps himself in a cloak of self-righteousness and lies to everybody (including himself) about what he really is.

 

We all see what we want to see.

Anakin, like many other kids his age, is impatient with his strict tutor who clearly sees that he is just not ready to move on yet.
Luke, like many other kids his age, is impatient with his strict guardian who feels that he is just not old enough to fend for himself yet.

Anakin may be more arrogant and possessive than Luke, but does he hate Obi-Wan? Definitely not. The two of them LOVE eachother, like brothers. They argue and get frustrated with eachother because they care. Like brothers.

That's what I see.

 

Well, I definitely agree that you’re seeing what you wanna see, because the Obi-Wan/Anakin dynamic we actually see is actually the exact same dynamic shown here:



Please explain to me how the relationship between Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker is any different than the relationship between Tyrion Lannister and Joffrey. And no, the fact that Obi-Wan is not Anakin’s uncle doesn’t count, nor does the fact that Obi-Wan isn’t a dwarf.

 

What's with your obsession of bringing Game of Thrones into this? This is a Star Wars forum. Not everyone watches that show, including myself.

 

^ Ditto.

Kuro: I understand the meaning of "character dynamics", thanks

I'm fairly unfamiliar with the relationship of Tyrion and Joffrey, so I think I'd best address your point with a few questions:

- Do Tyrion and Joffrey ever share a tender moment where Joffrey confides in his uncle regarding whatever ails him and Tyrion offers a few well-meaning words of comfort?

- Does Joffrey ever, in any way, express the sentiment that Tyrion is a great mentor and that he is truly thankful to be his nephew?

- Does Tyrion ever give Joffrey a sincere compliment to his face?

- Does Joffrey ever sincerely apologize to Tyrion?

- Does Tyrion ever assure someone else that Joffrey can be trusted?

- Do Tyrion and Joffrey ever share a laugh?

- Does Tyrion ever do anything to raise Joffrey's spirits?

- Does Joffrey ever, willingly, put himself, someone else and/or a mission at risk in order to save Tyrion?

- Does Joffrey do so repeatedly?

- Is Joffrey ever torn between his official duty and his wish to help Tyrion, only to end up smiling when someone/something makes it possible for him to do both?

- Does Tyrion ever get through to Joffrey to the point where he actually realizes, and verbally concedes, that his uncle is right?

- Does Tyrion ever appear heartbroken when Joffrey fails him?

 

Actually, Tyrion does try to lift Joffrey’s spirits at one point. Let’s just say that it doesn't go well. And that's the last time Tyrion ever tried doing anything nice for Joffrey. It’s a pretty brutal, horrific scene actually. As for the others.

When does Anakin ever confide in Obi-Wan? If anything, he seems to keep alot of secrets from Obi-Wan (although Obi-Wan probably figured out what was going on between Anakin and Natalie Portman on his own).

The one time Anakin does claim Obi-Wan is a great mentor, he does so in a very perfunctory manner, and then proceeded to throw a tantrum about how much he hates Obi-Wan.

When does Obi-Wan ever give Anakin a sincere compliment? He snarks at Anakin plenty. I guess Obi-Wan does share that in common with Tyrion. And when does Tyrion ever pay a sincere compliment to anybody, aside from maybe his brother, Jaime Lannister. Every comment Tyrion makes is laced with snarkiness and sarcasm. That’s why he’s the show’s most popular character.

When does Obi-Wan ever assure anyone that Anakin can be trusted. He actually does the exact opposite and criticizes Yoda and Samuel L. Jackson for putting too much trust in Anakin:



When do Anakin and Obi-Wan ever share a laugh? James Bond and Q did that more frequently than Obi-Wan and Anakin ever did:



And that series never tries to pretend that Bond and Q were ever great friends.

I’ll grant that at the beginning of SITH, Anakin risks the mission to save Obi-Wan. In all fairness, Anakin isn’t a coward like Joffrey is, which is undoubtedly their most significant difference.

When is Anakin ever torn between his duty and his desire to help Obi-Wan?

And when does Anakin ever concede that Obi-Wan is right about anything?

I’m not sure that Tyrion is heartbroken over Joffrey’s actions, but he’s certainly shocked and horrified by them. He’s a bit smarter than Obi-Wan in that he realized long ago that there’s no getting through to this little brat. Or, as Bronn put it:



If only Obi-Wan and Natalie Portman had realized the truth behind Bronn’s words of wisdom…

 

You might as well ask when Leia and Han ever share a laugh, or why Luke keeps secrets from Han.

Or comment on every single time Han disses Luke or vice-versa.

 

Luke and Han pretty much stop dissing each other by the time they get out of the Death Star. Afterwards, there’s a bit of good-natured ribbing (from Han), but you can tell that there’s a genuine affection there and that they care for each other. And when does Luke keep secrets from Han? The only one I can really think of is regarding his parentage and, again, good reason. As for sharing a laugh:

 

OBI-WAN: You look tired.
ANAKIN: I don't sleep well anymore.
OBI-WAN: Because of your mother?
ANAKIN nods.
ANAKIN: I don't know why I keep dreaming of her.
OBI-WAN: Dreams pass in time.

He does faithfully state just before that that it won't take Obi-Wan long to find the assassin.
And he is complaining about Obi-Wan's conservative training methods, not saying he hates him.

As darkspine10 pointed out, he and Anakin part on good terms before the turn.

ANAKIN: You're gonna need me on this one Master.
OBI-WAN: Oh, I agree. However it might turn out just to be a wild Bantha chase.
ANAKIN: Master!
(continuing) I've disappointed you. I have not been very appreciative of your training . . . I have been arrogant and I apologize . . . I've just been so frustrated with the Council. Your friendship means everything to me.
OBI-WAN: You are strong and wise, Anakin, and I am very proud of you. I have trained you since you were a small boy. I have taught you everything I know. And you have become a far greater Jedi than I could ever hope to be. But be patient, Anakin. It won't be long before the Council makes you a Jedi Master.
OBI-WAN starts down the ramp, then turns back.
ANAKIN: Obi-Wan, may the Force be with you.
OBI-WAN: Good-bye, old friend. May the Force be with you.

Exaggerating.

Again, darkspine10 pointed to the scene on the gunship after Anakin is assigned to spy on Palpatine. He reaffirms that Anakin is the chosen one and reassures Mace and Yoda he won't let them down.

First scene (in the elevator) in AOTC.
Their cocky banter on The Invisible Hand in ROTS.

Mace tells Anakin to stay on Tattooine and protect Padme, rather than attempt to rescue Obi-Wan on Geonosis. Padme finds a loophole in that she is going to go rescue Obi-Wan, so Anakin has to come as her bodyguard, which cheers Anakin up.

Again, Anakin apologises during their farewell.
Plus earlier he tries to give Obi-Wan credit for the Palpatine rescue mission, but Obi-Wan says he is reaching.

That's a little ironic a statement when the Jedi seem to pretty strictly believe a Jedi can never return from the dark side. Luke and Qui-Gon are shown to be more optimistic, and although we haven't seen Luke's training methods yet the saga seems to reinforce a more liberal approach can work wonders.

 

Well, I was gonna respond, but after my web browser crashed twice, deleting everything I’ve written…


**** it. I ain’t rewriting this post a third time.

 

Kuro

Would be interested if you want to do a summary of the lost post.

 

this thread was a great read...

 

Cheers for reading it.
Did you look at both pages? It goes down to the end of page two.
Assuming you did, thanks for your persistence in making it that far.

 

Would love any more feedback if anyone is feeling gracious

 

Planning something.....

 

I'm intrigued

 

Still eager to hear your contribution if you are game

 

@HevyDevy
maybe I'm wrong but this



and this
“This path has been placed before you, the choice is yours alone.” (to become a Jedi)



always feeled similar to me, it's about parental figures telling them their destiny lies elsewhere and leaving/letting go of that figure. Both times it's the last time they see each other and the next time they see each other the parental figure perishes.

as for inversion goes,
the death of his mother leads to Anakin committing mass murder on the Tusken Raiders
while for Luke, he's sad at Ben's death but let's it go, he doesn't let death dominate his actions.



PS Love this thread. I'm still only at page 1 since it's pretty long and takes time to look at everything while being busy.
I always loved all the parallels/mirroring/rhyming/etc there is in the Saga movies, the journey of father and son and how similar destinies to face the Sith while being Jedi is completely different because of their choices.

these types of parallel have already expanded even more with the addition of Rey and TFA, plenty of things with her are similar to both Luke and Anakin.