PT Anakin and Padmé, what changed Obi-Wan's mind?

In another discussion it came up that Obi-Wan kind of knew in ROTS that Anakin and Padmé were close. Now....in that scenario Obi-Wan is meant to believe that this relationship is good for Anakin. So, what changed his mind between AOTC and ROTS on this. Through AOTC Obi-Wan (correctly) tried to warn Yoda and Mace against sending Anakin on the mission with Padmé because he feels that Anakin has formed a dangerous attachment to her.

At the end of AOTC he see first hand how Anakin felt compelled to put Padmé before his duty to the Jedi and the Republic (he makes clear he would allow Dooku go and continue the war in order to go back for Padmé).....so, given what he has learned here, what changed his stance between the two movies?

 

It's not so much "he thinks it's good for Anakin" as "he thinks Anakin can't be prevented from Being Close To Padme - so he turns a blind eye, hoping Anakin will eventually outgrow it a bit".

That seemed to be the EU take on it, anyway.

From the Clone Wars comic Obsession, Obi-Wan says, when he arrives at Padme's house on Naboo, where Anakin is:

"Every Padawan on Coruscant knows where to find you. But I don't care what you do on leave. I'm only here because I need your help."

 

I agree with Iron Lord, I don't think Obi Wan is naive enough to think the relationship is good for Anakin, but rather sees that Anakin is going to do what Anakin is going to do. It's better to turn a blind eye instead of having Anakin resent him for keeping the two apart. Kenobi just has to hope he's trained Anakin well enough, that he has enough good in him, and that Padme is the mature and reasonable one between the two that can keep Anakin in line.

Obviously, things didn't go as planned...

 

But...surely with what he saw in AOTC, he knows how Anakin will react to any threat to Padmé. Why would he now turn a blind eye to something he was concerned about early in AOTC and has seen evidence of the negative effect the attachment has on Anakin by the end of that movie?

I suppose, in a way, there's a larger context here...in that through discussions in other threads there appear to be huge discrepancies between what we see in AOTC and what we see at the beginning of ROTS. This, Obi-Wan's turning a 'blind eye' to what he has witnessed is a chink in Anakin's personality and...he does everything wrong he possibly can in AOTC, including rushing headlong into Dooku and blowing the chance the Jedi have of capturing Dooku....how in the name of the Force did he become a Jedi Knight?

 

A shortage of knights during the Clone Wars, I'm sure. I think Anakin became a Knight only in technicality..he passed the trials, but did he truly pass his own trials?

This is where the Clone War novels/comics and to an even lesser extent, the show, come into play. Anakin had matured during the war (though, not as much as he should've,) and I feel like Obi Wan placed the highest and upmost confidence in Anakin. I feel Obi Wan believed Anakin to be a better Jedi than he was.

This could also portray the human flaw of ignoring the flaws in those we love. Obi Wan and Anakin became closer during the CW, and became brothers. Obi Wan sees the compassion in Anakin, and that he takes his career as a promising Jedi seriously. Obi Wan knew about Padme and Anakin, how could he not, but I feel there was a time when he truly believed Anakin to be able to put the needs of others before himself. It was a confidence flaw, I suppose, and a misplaced faith he had in him.

And, Obi Wan loved Anakin, I feel he wanted him to be happy.

 

I agree that is probably what we're supposed to take from the change but it highlighted to me that, as with TPM Anakin to AOTC Anakin, so with AOTC Anakin to ROTS Anakin. All the character development appears to occur off-screen, between the movies

So why does Obi-Wan believe, now, that Anakin is mature enough that, despite what he has seen first hand in AOTC regarding both his attachment to Padmé and his ability to think? It has all happened (again) off screen. And...given what later happens in ROTS...I suppose the real fault of the Jedi is that they are very poor judges of character...(because clearly he is not mature enough to deal with his attachment and he can't think).

 

I tend to think of it this way - Obi-Wan tells Padme to break her relationship off with Anakin (Wild Space) - she pretends she will but ignores him - and as the war goes on it becomes more and more obvious to him that a relationship is still going on - but that it's not really hurting Anakin's ability to Fight The War - so, other than the occasional snarky comment, Obi-Wan ignores it.

 

Anakin is made a Jedi because he wins battles. Possibly another underlying reason of many that Palpatine initiates a galactic war. The CW microseries communicates it best when Ki-Adi is the only survivor of the Jedi who encounter General Greivous. He has seen what Anakin can do. He goes back to the Jedi Council and pleads:
"Why do we hold back the Chosen One!?"
The while Obi-Wan vouches for him, emotionally he does not seem mature enough to truly be a Jedi Knight, let alone a Master.

 

Ignoring all EU, I think the simplest answer is that in AOTC, Anakin is still Obi Wan's Padawan. Obi Wan has a responsibility to teach Anakin, and a responsibility to protect Anakin from himself.

However, when we get into ROTS, Anakin is now a Knight. He is past that Master/Apprentice relationship. Anakin is now responsible for his own actions, and doesn't have to answer to Obi Wan anymore. At least in the sense of what Anakin is doing in his private life.
From one movie to the next, the dynamic of their relationship changed.

Why doesn't Obi Wan report Anakin? I think there are multiple answers.

They were friends, and Obi Wan was looking the other way for a friend.

Possibly Obi Wan's pride, by telling the council of his suspicions, Obi Wan felt he may be admitting his own failure to train Anakin correctly.

Maybe even though Obi Wan suspected the relationship, he didn't understand the entire issue. He may have thought it was a fling, never thinking Anakin would actually marry Padme...


Edit: Just to add, I don't think the Jedi Order was as strict as a lot think. It seems the Jedi, once they became Knights, were allowed to come and go as they pleased. This is obvious in that once Anakin is back on Coruscant, no one starts asking where he is spending his nights.

I think that the Jedi Order basically runs on the Honor System. There are no systems in place to keep an eye on the members of the order, as they are expected to act accordingly.

Very different then what many of deal with from our employers these days. With cameras, email surveillance, etc.

 

As the deleted scene in ROTS shows, which is referenced in the final film, Obi-wan believes that while it is a dangerous thing, he also sees it as a boon. Padme is one of the few people in the galaxy that Anakin will open up to. More so than he ever could to him. That is why he asks her to talk to him and try to get him to open up about what has been troubling him since returning from the Outer Rim. This is also why he went to see Padme after leaving the Temple as he believed that she would know where he had gone off to. It isn't until he is there that he finally puts it together that the relationship is far more serious than he first realized, when he sees her belly and sees how she reacts.

 

There were several reasons. I got three quotes. I felt they might explain it better than I can.

From the ROTS novel:

Also in Secrets of the Jedi, at the end of the novel, after Siri dies.

From the AOTC novel. That converstation between Mace and Obi-Wan:

 

This -- to me -- is the best and most cogent answer in the thread.

And an argument, of sorts, for why that particular scene should probably have been included.

 

I don't think anything did IU, I think it's a scripted inconsistency OOU.

 

In the movies we never see Anakin chastised for disobeying Obi-wan and rushing off at Dooku in AOTC .
I think Obi-wan kind of ignored some of Anakin's behavior.

Concerning Padme and Anakin one way to look at it could be

During the Clone Wars Duchess Satine comes back into Obi-wan's life and perhaps brought up some old feelings which could have softened him up to the idea of Padme/Anakin.

Also during the war it seems that some Jedi had gone through changes and perhaps formed closer bonds with each other through comradeship in war.

The Jedi tried to deny feelings they had, when they are not emotionless robots. Even Yoda shows emotion.

 

There's a bit of discussion of this between Yoda and Obi-Wan in the aftermath of AOTC, in the Wild Space novel. Anakin's losing his hand might qualify as enough of a "lesson in why one should listen to one's master, and not to be so reckless" that Obi-Wan doesn't think he needs a long lecture as well.

 

Right...so that far from Anakin being subject to the 'dogmatic' rules of the Jedi he is actually given, by a sort of unspoken understanding, the same level of freedom that Luke has in the OT. He is taught the same lessons by the same Jedi with just as much personal freedom as Luke...so how is it that Luke's epiphany is a personal accomplishment, a personal victory and yet Anakin's choice is the fault of the Jedi?

 

One of the ironies here is that Obi-Wan, particularly, and the other Jedi, on some levels, at least, did give him some room, let's concede. But Anakin's personal perception of Obi-Wan and the Jedi was somewhat clouded, by a combustible mixture of fear and jealousy, exacerbated by the honey-tipped half-truths of a madman.

Due to the turbulent political time, he also married in secret and kept the union a secret, with a growing suspicion that he was being cuckolded, or at least having his life managed in secret, by a close companion (Obi-Wan) but nonetheless meddling outsider. He was dogged by powerful visions of his wife first of all dying, and later, being tended to by the person he suspected of interfering, with himself nowhere in sight >> literally pushed out of the frame (as he started to believe the Jedi were collectively doing to him).

And Anakin, unlike Luke, was taken up by the Jedi at a young age, with an unresolved attachment issue, suddenly cut off from his old life, with limited sources of help, and left struggling with gnawing frustrations and doubt. In other words, the Jedi had plenty of responsibility toward him, since they became -- or positioned themselves as -- his friends, his mentors, his bosses, and his guardians.

Also, unlike Luke, Anakin began as a slave, and threw himself into personal projects (podracer, protocol droid) from a young age, using deception and guile in order to achieve something -- anything -- in the shadow of annihilation; or the threat of simply being traded away (and possibly torn from his mother in the process). He then won a deadly race, ostensibly winning his "freedom", and then followed this up by clinching a notable military victory before his tenth birthday.

All this, combined with his mysterious birth and reputed role as the galaxy's "Chosen One", no doubt had an immensely strong effect on his psyche, on the feeling he was being held back, and later excluded, because he was growing too powerful too quickly, and his own tribe feared what the consequences of not restraining him might be.

It's a story which you act like there's no depth or nuance to. I see plenty of both.

 

Two answers here.

1. If Luke had fallen, it would have been their fault for letting him be raised by the Lars and letting him do what he does.

2. Obi-wan's fault in letting Anakin have that freedom is that it played right into Palpatine's hands. It gave Anakin the impression that he could get away with murder, both literally and figuratively. Anakin thinks that he's pulling the wool over the Jedi's eyes, including Obi-wan and it gives him confidence in his ability to deceive them. With Luke, Obi-wan as a ghost can see Luke wherever he goes and whatever he does. Thus he is aware of what he is doing and what he shouldn't. But it is more than just that. Obi-wan underestimated how much of an attachment Anakin had to Padme which was in turn clouding the boy's judgment. But taking too much of a hands off approach, he gave Palpatine all the room that he needed to manipulate Anakin. That's why he set up the situation where the Council would send Obi-wan to Utapau over Anakin. Not only did it intensify the tensions between the boy and the Council, but it allowed him to have the boy's ear without his former Master's influence.

In Luke's case, take note that Yoda is reluctant to train Luke. He sees that he is unfocused, lacks discipline, has anger issues and has developed a strong attachment to his loved ones. Obi-wan believes strongly in Luke, while Yoda is uncertain. They want to get it right this time, but Luke is just as borderline as his father only this time, he doesn't have a Sith Lord in his ear for as long.

 

i think that during the clone wars the jedi were to busy to pay much attention to the relationship. they were also being secretive about it.

 

I guess he really didn't twig how close they actually were until he worked out Anakin was going to be a daddy. Mainly because he was much more traditional than Anakin and the Jedi way stuck with him. Even with Satine he was able to let attachment go (to an extent at least) and didn't realise Anakin just couldn't do the same. If Obi-Wan and Satine had been in the place of Anakin and Padme and it had been Obi getting the visions, he would have prepared himself and her and they would have made the most of what time they had left.

 

Obi-Wan knew Anakin had feelings for Padme. This is clear according to both AotC and TCW. But he trusted Anakin not to go too far with his feelings. He had no idea he'd taken the step of getting married to her.

Obviously, Obi-Wan was wrong. But I find it hard to fault the guy for finally putting his trust in Anakin after so many years of unfairly doubting him.

 

Bit of a paradox here I think. Obi-Wan was proven to be wrong to have (finally) put his faith in Anakin...and yet that somehow ties in with his having "unfairly doubted him" earlier.... It makes more sense to say his earlier doubts were fair and his faith was misplaced. Surely?

 

His faith turned out to be misplaced, but his heart was in the right place. And one of the reasons his faith turned out to be misplaced was because he failed to put his faith in Anakin earlier. Yes, you might say it's a bit of a paradox, but certainly not a conundrum.

 

That's a good catch. There are many paradoxical story and design elements within Star Wars.