Anakin and the Tuskens: Weak point of the arc?

Well of course it was a different scenario im just saying that the moment where luke denounces evil once and for all was after he faced that evil and made the important decision of choosing the right path and after he was indeed tempted but THEN realized that the promise of the power of the dark side was ultimately a lie witch is what made him as strong minded as jedi like Yoda, Mace and Obi-wan.

I know that to a certain extent anakin trusted palpatine at first but he would have gladly gave him up to the jedi after he found out he was a sith except he needed his knowledge to save padme and his unborn child. He says right in the movie that he would "certainly like to kill him" and put an end to his deception and evil -but he cant right then and there. It is even stated in the ROTS novel that anakin felt very betrayed and mad at palpatine becouse(among other things) the war that anakin has passionately fought for the past 3 years has been orchestrated by palpatine and what anakin was hopeing for (at first) was for mace to arrest palpatine and for anakin to get the information he needed to save padme while he was in custody and then leave palpatine to his fate but then he saw mace trying to kill a seemingly helpless palpatine and that's when his views of the jedi started to change becouse palpatines words were almost proven to be true and anakin at that point just had no reason not to believe palpatine. It wasn't that he knew and trusted palpatine so he just went along with him easier its that his words were so powerful and seemed so true and right and seductive that anakin couldn't resist and was swayed.

If somehow palpatine were to do the same thing to luke by disproving everything he was told about palpatine by the jedi and changing his *point of view* than luke would have turned to the dark side, but of course it didnt happen like that becouse luke was able to not make the same mistakes of the past and he choose to forever renounce the dark.

 

But the main issue here is not about trust or distrust but rather that the person that turns, in this case Luke, would be filled with a murderous hate AGAINST the sith in question, Palpatine.
So would Luke just be able to instanly forget his massive hate against Palpatine just based on some promise of power? I rather doubt it. Also Luke did not trust Palpatine and had never been friends with him so he has NO reason to belive anything that Palaptine tells him.
Imagine you have a Luke, eyes blazing with hate, going towards Palaptine saying "YOU *******, I HATE YOU, I DESPISE YOU, DIE YOU *******" and Palpatine says "I can offer you power" and Luke would go "oh, well in that case I'll gladly serve you, I'll just go and polish your boots now, shall I?".

I just can't see it, Luke would proably view this as Palaptine trying to save his own hide and would not listen.

That Luke would have turned is not in question to me but rather what he would have done after he turned.
Given what Palpatine said and did to him before the turn I would think that Luke's first impulse would be to attack Palpatine and try to carve him into little pieces.
I would also think that Palaptine would figure that Luke would try to attack him and had something up his sleve for that event. This I think was more than just promises of power, I do think that Palpatine could use Lukes anger and hate and bend him to his will in some manner. Not to the point that Luke is a zombie but that he is under Palpatines influence to some extent.

Regards
Nordom

 

Palpatine was desperate. He didn't have the time to properly corrupt Luke, like he did with Anakin, and tried whatever he could at the moment. You could call it a half-court shot in basketball...not much chance it goes in, but at the end of the half, or game, you try it anyway. It was not a genuine efforted attempt to convert Luke, but all that he could think of at the moment. Had he had a voice in Luke's ear for a decade, like he did with Anakin, he could have managed a whole lot more.

 

But this does not make much sense, why would Palpatine be desperate? He already HAD a powerfull and good aprentice, Vader, so why risk him on the slight chance that Luke might turn? Sure Vader might not be AS strong as Palpatine had hoped but still he was very powerfull. Also there were no jedi left so much less threats. It does not seem like Palpatine to rush into things with a half baked plan or just trusting to chance. If Palpatine had doubts or wanted more time to work on Luke then that is easily arranged, as soon as he comes to Vader, have him frozen or drugged. Then he can crush the rebels with the DS2 and with that done he can focus his whole attention to Luke.

Palpatine did not NEED Luke for anything, he could just have killed him and be done with it.
Also take Dooku, while we do not know how he turned it seemed that he turned very quickly and he was a Jedi master.

So sorry this does not work for me, Palpatine seemed VERY certain that Luke would turn and if he did then Luke would be Palpatines obidient servant imideatly.

Regards
Nordom

 

First of all, first and foremost, you keep saying that luke viciously hated palpatines guts as if its fact becouse "omg dude why wouldn't he want to kill that evil guy?" well im sorry but star wars just doesn't work like that. You and i hate palpatine becouse we are the audience we know more than any character in the saga just how bad he is and how hes the main bad guy of the saga but that doesn't mean luke would with out a doubt want to kill him like you keep making it sound and i have explained it before.

You said luke has a "massive hate against Palpatine" as if it was fact, why would he have this hate? where does it say in the movie that luke was even half aware of all the stuff palpatine did? and why would luke have a big powerful HATE ageist palpatine when he just met this mysterious old man and vader is the one constantly tempting luke becouse VADER wants luke to turn to help him over through palpatine, Vader is the one that is threatening lukes friends and family all through the fight, vader has been the one absolutely TERRORIZING luke for the past 4-5 years! All palpatine was doing was telling luke to use his aggressive feelings in order to defeat this terrible monster, and even luke couldn't take his fathers evil anymore to the point where he wanted him dead and gone until he snapped out of it. If he killed vader he would have felt power and relief like never before and he would now have the entire empire and galaxy at his command WHY??? becouse he used the dark side like palpatine was telling him to do all along, palpatine could then make him think with out a doubt that everything the jedi (who lied to luke before) told him about the emperor was a lie and now that vaders dead he could "bring peace to the empire" -and thats if palpatine would even need to say any of that! ounce luke kills vader THAT'S IT! he is a slave to the dark side weather he likes it or not, weather he has any kind of sith master or not.

Now you said "I do think that Palpatine could use Lukes anger and hate and bend him to his will in some manner." If you are talking about influence than yea sure, just like palpatine has been doing to countless people all his life and like he did to vader who was much harder to turn than untrained luke. Just like all sith masters do, but its not any magic spell that can make you do things that you dont want to do or keep you in the dark side if you want to be good, its influence, manipulation, seduction, temptation and all the powerful and

 

Palpatine was desperate. He didn't have the time to properly corrupt Luke, like he did with Anakin, and tried whatever he could at the moment.


Palpatine would not have to bother corrupting Luke over a period of time. Luke always had the potential to succumb to his darker impulses. Like everyone else. All Luke needed was a weak point . . . something for someone to exploit. And he made some of his biggest mistakes over his concern for Leia and Han. Those two were his Achilles heel. It certainly didn't take Vader very long to figure this out. And even Palpatine eventually did.

 

Where would Luke get this hate, well just watch the films.
In ANH Luke says he hates the empire and Palpatine IS the empire so Luke would know who he is. Also in ANH, the empire kills Luke's only family so that again is another reason for Luke not likeing Palpatine. Then in RotJ, watch the scene on the DS2, Palpatine is goading Luke to get mad and angry and attack HIM. "Strike me down with all of your hate and your journey to the Dark Side will be complete." And "Good the hate is swelling within you now." Further he brought Luke and makes him watch how all friends will die and the rebellion will be crushed. Luke stands there powerless to help his friends and Palpatine is gloating about it. And you do not think this will make Luke angry at him? No, this is done for one reason and one reason alone, to make Luke mad enough so that he attacks in hate. Again watch the films, Luke takes his saber and strikes against PALPATINE, not Vader. Luke has been trying to reach out to Vader, he belives there is good in him and he says that he does NOT want to fight him.
If Luke was fighting Palpatine would he say that? I rather doubt it.

Then Palpatine is goading Luke to kill his own father, a father he has been trying hard to redeem and if he had, I very much doubt he would like Palpatine afterwards. Even Anakin felt sorry after killing Dooku and Luke will feel much worse.
No, I think that RotJ is VERY clear here, Palpatine is doing all he can to get Luke mad and angry at HIM to provoke Luke into attacking. Which Luke does, watch the films, he does TRY to kill Palpatine, Vader just blocks it. So after giving into his hate and being filled with the dark side why wouldn't Luke turn his anger against Palpatine?

Second, about your notion that we know more about the SW galaxy just from watching the film than the persons living there. This is nonsense I am sorry to say. We can know more about one minor thing but Luke would know FAR more about the evils of the empire than we ever could.
It is like saying that you know more about the Holocaust just from watching Schindlers List than a concentration camp survivor.
Luke LIVED under empire, he had family and friends die at the hands of the empire, he fought it for several years. He would know far better than any of us what the empire has done and what it was capable of. All we get is small window of six hours from this galaxy and yet you say that we know more about it than the persons actually living there?
For us it is fantasy, a pleasant diversion, for them it is reality.
So sorry but your reasoning that Luke would have no idea that Palpatine is a bad guy does not wash at all. Palpatine was the EMPEROR, not just some guy. He was the one in charge of the empire and anything it did could be laid at Palpatine's feet. All of Luke anger against the empire could be directed at Palpatine because he was the empire.

About how much controll the Dark Side will have over someone, I think we will not see eye to eye here so lets just agree to disagree.

Lastly about Luke and Anakin, their situation is not very similar at all.
With Anakin, Palpatine spent years wispering to him, flattering him, making Anakin trust him while causing a rift between Anakin and the jedi. Also he offered things Anakin wanted, power and most importantly, a way to save Padme. With Luke there was NOTHING of this, Palpatine went out of his way to make Luke hate him, he was not offering him anything except slavery. Luke had no reason to trust anything Palpatine said and he alre

 

sorry if anybody else has said similar to this but i cant be botherd to read through 200 posts.

i read the novel of episode 1 {a great read} and in that anakin comes across a injured tusken whos broke his leg anakin applys a splint and keeps watch over him that night,in the morning when other tuskens turn up they turn on ani but the injured one calls them back.

knowing that added more weight to the scene in AOTC to me,i think anakins way of trying to rationise it is saying that they were like animals,but infact hes opend up a door {to the dark side} and it haunts him.

in the clone wars movie when tatooine is mentioned a haunting sound of a tusken raider can be heard the same when palpatine mentions it in ROTS.

in a book {cant remember the name}set before ROTS it mentions how since the tusken slaughter anakin has been drawing on the power he got when he killed them like he was taking little bits of the dark side and i think palpatine knows this and thats why hes so esily kills mace and becomes a sith

 

I think you are misunderstanding what I meant by Palpatine being desperate. I didn't mean to suggest that he was under a time constraint to replace Vader, or anything like that, merely that he knew if he were to corrupt Luke, it would have to be right there and then, because based on the situation, I think Palpatine was coming to terms with the potential outcomes of the duel.

1. If Vader wins, and kills Luke, he loses nothing, and its the status quo. No biggie.
2. If Vader wins, but cannot kill his own son, conceivably, they turn on him. That is to be avoided, if you are Palpatine.
3. If Luke wins, and if Luke stays good, he either kills Vader, robbing Palpatine of his apprentice, and risks Luke being strong enough to kill him, or
4. succeeds in turning him back to the Light side, again, robbing Palpatine of his apprentice, and increases the risk of both of them turning on him.

So, clearly, Palpatine's best move strategically, is to make sure that if Luke wins, he at least doesn't stay good. Luke winning/staying good is the way Palpatine loses. Luke defeating Vader was a very real possibility, so Palpatine was covering his ass by trying to convert Luke. He had a very limited window of time to turn Luke though, thus my desperate comment, not that he was desperate to replace Vader. But that if he were to guarantee his survival, he had to at least try to turn Luke, even if it wasn't very likely to succeed. He was trying to rig the deck in his favor.

 

to "Nordom"-

You are trying to argue that the whole 2nd half of ROTJ is flawed because weather the PT films were made or not this would still be an issue by the way you are describing it. Weather the PT was made or not palpatine in ROTJ would still make luke mad and then when luke is about to kill his father palpatine would still look at luke and say "your hate has made you powerful, now take your fathers place at my side". No matter what way you look at it what HAD to happen in the scenario of luke killing his father is that Luke would have turned to the dark side. Luke would have (at least for a short time) let palpatine teach him about the dark side because of ALLLLL the seemingly endless things luke had working ageist him...

1.)luke wasn't given the proper jedi training at least not enough to protect him against the awesome temptation of the dark side.
2.)The jedi already have a big strike ageist them because they lied about the thing that meant so much to luke so they could be lieing about other things to.
3.)Luke is a new player in something that has been going on since the beginning of the saga and he can be very easily lied to and there is nothing to say he wouldn't believe the kind of powerful, seemingly undisputeable evidence that palpatine is famous for producing AT LEAST long enough for him to learn the dark side from palpatine until he overthrows him.
4.)Luke didn't like palpatine, but it was vader that was lukes worst enemy for years, it was vader who was threatening lukes sister with made him go crazy NOT palpatine. Now whats to stop palpatine from simply throwing the blame on vader and saying now that luke killed him they can work together to bring piece to the empire by letting luke tap more into the dark side that he is basically consumed in?

and even IF luke charged the emperor and tryed to kill him if vader was dead than palpatine could ether subdue luke until he was ready to be his apprentice or just kill him and train another sith. Ether way the dark side wins and the ending to the saga is an unhappy one. Why? because luke started down the dark path by killing his father. But just by watching the movies in order we can see where it ultimately gos if you start down the dark path. but it didn't happen like that and luke chooses light instead of dark and the saga has a happy ending. Understanding this is the reason why i have no problem with ROTJ, you should try to just see it this way. If luke killed vader he would turn to the dark side and take his place if even for a few days until he overthrown the emperor. this is what ROTJ has ALWAYS implied weather the PT was made or not.

 

That actually is a good point, Obi-Rob-Kenobi4...It could be argued that the reason Palpatine needed to take so long to lure Anakin is because he had to combat ten+ years of Jedi indoctrination...Luke however, at least wouldn't appear to be nearly as indoctrinated as Anakin was. We the audience of course know that Luke is the hero, and will never give in...but Palpatine as a character does not. He examines what he knows about Luke...at best he has received very limited training, a few days with Obi-Wan Kenobi, and a few months approximately with Yoda. Incredibly powerful as Luke is, from Palpatine's perspective, he had to be thinking how much faith can Luke possibly have in the Jedi way of doing things after spending such a short time learning it? He can't possibly have gotten the same amount of indoctrination Anakin did, he simply didn't have the time...thus, far fewer lessons Luke would have to unlearn.

I look at Gantoris and Kyp Durron from the Jedi Academy Trilogy, a relative newbie at being a Jedi, who was easily corrupted by Exar Kun with the lure of power as parallels to Luke...Had either spent a decade as a Jedi first, it would have been much harder for Exar Kun to convince either of them to give the Dark side a whirl. in ROTJ, Luke is in much the same position as Gantoris and Kyp, relatively young and untrained, and Palpatine does exactly what Exar Kun does, he attempts to lure him to the Dark side with promises of power.

He didn't know that power was an ineffective lure until after he tried it. While Anakin's weakness was family, it was Luke's strength. Palpatine simply couldn't have known that what worked for Anakin would have the exact opposite effect on Luke, that while Anakin fell to protect his family, Luke would use family as a shield to prevent his own fall. But, lets be real...Palpatine HAD to try. How could he not at least try to corrupt Luke, given his enormous Force potential? Palpatine would have been an idiot not to. Yeah, it was a long shot, but, sometimes long shots pay out.

 

But you still have not said WHY the only chance to corrupt Luke was right there and then.
As I said, as soon as Luke comes to Vader, which Palpatine is certain he will, then simply have him frozen or something. Then Palpatine can work him over at his leaisure.
Why risk himself or his powerfull apprentice on a wild chance when he would not have to?

Also consider Vader, he must have known or suspected that Palpatine was planing to replace him with Luke and I would imagine that made him feel less than good. So Palptaine had already started to loose one apprentice and if Luke did not turn or turned but attacked Palpatine then he would loose Luke as well.

So in all Palpatine stands to loose a lot so why risk it by rushing along? He had plenty of time.

Regards
Nordom

 

He's overconfident. One might even say that his overconfidence is his weakness.

 

You do remember that they tried freezing him, right? It didn't work. Luke escaped. Its in a little movie called The Empire Strikes Back. In ROTJ, Luke turns himself in on Endor...where there is most certainly not going to be a carbon freezing chamber handy, and, with the Emperor right there, above Endor in the Death Star, what would have been the point of freezing him at that time? Luke was already there, Vader was already there, and Palpatine was already there. All three key players in the Force were at the same location...why stall it?

We the audience know quite well that Palpatine did not in fact have plenty of time. While we have on-screen scenes that show that while he knew about the rebel attack, he did NOT have precognition about the shield generator ultimately falling, nor is there any evidence he knew that the Millennium Falcon was going to blow the Death Star up. We the audience understand that while we watch the ROTJ duel, Palpatine's life is being measured in minutes, not years.

Now, why risk himself? Because he is arrogant and thinks that the universe revolves around him...He doesn't actually believe he can lose, so from his perspective, it isn't much of a risk at all. Why risk Vader? That should be obvious. Luke represents the potential Sith Anakin could have become, were it not for Mustafar. Palpatine sees in Luke, a mulligan. A do over. Anakin proved to be flawed by his injuries, but Luke....Luke is Anakin without the injuries. Palpatine would have been foolish not to try to corrupt him. Plus, I would argue that Palpatine had already lost his apprentice a long time before. As soon as Darth Vader finds out he has a son, Palpatine's hold on him becomes reduced. Vader was already plotting Palpatine's downfall, long before the events of ROTJ. While Palpatine was planning to use Luke against Vader, (and he most certainly would have) Vader was at the same time planning to use Luke against Palpatine.

 

Let's get back to tying this in with Anakin and the Tuskens.

 

im quoting my own reply here because it was relevent to the name of the topic,but i seem to of jumped in while a different discussion broke out.

also thinking more about it, now anakin has basicly become a mass murderer in his mind it would make killing the younglings easier as he just puts himself how he felt when he killed them.