Anakin as a Tragic Hero- Did it all fall into place?

He just wants more...and he knows he shouldn't. and Palpatine has been squeezing out the room for a conscience for a very very long time. Yes Anakin is self-assured even arrogant (but then, Yoda has said many of the more senior Jedi also are afflicted) - but he's the one who has saved Obi Wan's life countless times and that is so irrefutable they joke with each other about it; Anakin is still listening to the soon-to-be-erased Jimminy Cricket in him when he wants to help out both Obi Wan ("Leave, there's nothing more you can do" Obi Wan said - yet Anakin replied he would not leave without him)and the Clonetroopers who would shortly be shot down. It was Obi Wan who insisted that they both focus on the mission and leave the Clones to their fate. And to negate Anakin's heroism as simply special Jedi skills ignores that he chooses to risk himself to save others....rather frequently.
The Hero Without Fear......
It was fear that was his undoing, but not the fear of sacrifice and service to others. It was the fear of loss.

 

Where in the movie does he save others, besides those he loves? He saves Obi-Wan and he saves Padme and the Chancellor, people he personally cares about. Again, you are looking at someone who is selective in his heroics. To think that he couldn't have stopped Padme if he so chooses is just ludicrous, he wanted an excuse to go save Obi-Wan and didn't care that Padme's life would be endangered.

Anakin is perhaps an anti-hero, but he never rises to the level of a true hero or greatness therefore his fall is never tragic. He's always on the verge of falling, from the age of at least 19 on. He never shows himself to be a passionate believer in the Republic (unless its to rationalize his murderous actions and excuse his betrayal of the Jedi) or in the Force. In fact wants to make himself the Dictator, discolve the republic for his own personal gain. He's a murderer of children at 19 and goes downhill from there. In a tragedy the fall of the hero is a fast fall (weeks or days), a moment of weakness or a singulur bad choice in a life time of good that ruins his life and one that he immediately regrets and quickly leads to his death. In Anakin's case he's been falling for years and his moments of weakness last weeks and happen over and over again. And he doesn't regret or try to right his wrong until 20 years later. Othello and Macbeth both regret their acts almost immediately and gladly accept their fast approaching deaths as their lot. Again not a hero, but a talented man who is too weak to ever become great.

"A Shakespearean tragedy, then, may be called a story of exceptional calamity leading to the death of a man of high estate and greatness!" tragedy lecture.

Where Anakin fails in the tragic hero model is that George Lucas shows us too many of his flaws, too many of his failures, too much of his evil deeds. We the audience of this story see a ten year old do potentially heroic things, and then we see two movies of an adult (Tragic heroes are adult) doing terrible things and acting badly. He kills children, he's arrogant, he lustful, he's reckless, he does stupid things, he lies, he's duplicitous. He's nothing like a hero should be and therefore he's not.

 

He saved countless lives on Naboo, during the battle. He tried to help Oddball and the rest of Red Squadron, but was told by Obi-wan to keep to the mission. You point out trying to save Padme and Palpatine, but need I remind you that he was assigned to protect Padme in AOTC. And the latter was Obi-wan's decision, as well as being part of their mandate as Jedi to protect the Chancellor, who in this case, at this time was Palpatine.

And again, how could he stop Padme? There's two ways to stop someone. Hurting/killing or disabling something else to prevent them from going. And he did care that her life would be endangered, but she didn't care about her life.

Correction. During their picnic, when discussing politics, he flat out tells Padme that he doesn't want to run the galaxy. But he believes that it should be someone who is wise and powerful. Once he has become Vader, then he believes that he alone should run things.

Actually, Anakin shows regret for his actions. He regrets that he shouldn't have killed the Tuskens, because he did so as a vengeful person and not as a Jedi. He shows regret for having killed Dooku, talking about how he knows that he shouldn't have done that. He expresses shock when he yells, "What have I done?" after cutting Mace's hand off and contributing to his death. He's crying after killing the Younglings and the Separatists. Then he has his final moment of sadness when he believes that he killed Padme directly. Yes, he doesn't try to fix the mistakes until later. That is because as part of the story, he's in a place where he has gone totally wrong and stays that way until he comes back. That's where the story takes its turn, is that rather than try to redeem himself right away, he is stuck in a loop of hate and destruction. All the rest of the common p

 

Wow, I'm really going to avoid the "Is the SW Saga better than Shakespeare?" argument that is developing in this thread. In a previous post, I wrote about a teacher friend of mine who uses the PT as a parallel to Macbeth to teach the concept of a tragic hero. Naturally, someone had to respond about how they have a friend who uses "The Mummy" to teach Egyptian history and how silly the idea of using contemporary films to teach literature is. Clearly, this person has never taught children or teenagers. I know many educators who will use ANYTHING to get young people interested in what they have to say and I also thought some SW fans might like to hear about how the Saga was being used in an educational setting.

 

*grin* I'm an educator and I do use some 'non traditional' references and resources to get my students to make the connection between what they know and are familiar with and what I am trying to teach them. I'm also always curious about how other teachers integrate SW into their lessons. My classroom is decorated with SW stuff, it not only makes the place I spend 50 to 60 hours a week nicer for me, its a way to connect to my students. No, they don't all like SW, but it does give us a talking point to make a human connection. Many of my students are not academically inclined and by the time they reach HS they come into the classroom assuming all teachers are the enemy. My 'weird' hobby lets them see a different side than the teacher that will academically challenge them.

 

Well, I admit it was a bit sad that Anakin falls so deeply into the Dark side.Palpatine was a manipulating madman (I heared that he took a part in kidnaping and torture of Shmi Skywalker),but i also blame Padme for Anakins fall.

 

The question begs for an answer, an answer that I'm not sure exists.
I would say Anakin's fall was tragic for sure. But IMO, he doesn't do anything to be worthy of being called a hero.

Lucas made it work. No easy task living up to the Classic Trilogy.

 

SSS... dude, you're killing me. This is nearly beyond debate.

A tragic hero is in no way shape or form the same as a classic hero. Luke is a classic hero, Anakin is a cut and dry tragic hero. He was once a man of high esteem (Lucas clearly intended to portray him as as Clone Wars shoot 'em up hero for the masses) who through a series of unfortunate events (some under his control, some not) becomes a villain, such is the way of all tragic heroes.

 

As long as its softly, like the Fugees style. La la la, la la, whoah, na-ah, naaaah...


***

I agree, Luke was mosdef a classic hero.
His father made being a moron into an art form.

So, yes... I concede he was the tragic hero. Albeit a dim one.

 

Tragic heros do not get the benefit of "redemption". Tragic figures go down without being redeemed, ergo the tragedy. That is where this story goes wrong, it is trying to reconcile two opposite traditions of storytelling: the tragedy and the epic. You cannot be both Oedipus and Achilles.

 

There are different definitions of redemption. He cannot make up for the mistakes that he has made. But he has come back from being evil, save his son and then die as a good man. Besides, you can do whatever you want in your story.

 

Of course you are right darth-sinister, my point is that the classical Greek Tragic Hero formula does not include redemption--that is a major factor in the genre. If the hero is redeemed, he ceases to be tragic. Tragic is not the same thing as sad. It is sad that the redeemed Vader/Anakin dies, it is not, however, tragic. That is my point. This doesn't make the story better or worse, it merely takes it out of the Tragic tradition.

 

There is nothing that says redemption isn't possible it's just not common.

Plus Vader was still a very evil man, who did terrible things that can't be made up for, no matter how he changes his mind in the end. His redemption in the eyes of the Force does not undo his history.

If Joseph Campbell, of all people, had no problem with the redemption ending, then what is there to argue about?

 

There is a whole fascinating subconscious psychological aspect to Anakin's character that percolated back up to my conscious after reading THIS NY TIMES ARTICLE . NY Times is a subscription site, so if you cannot access, I will provide quotes as needed to back up my point.

The jist is that good people begin to behave badly, that there are " . . . small steps that people take when they do evil. . . . [such as] an authority can command people to do things they believe they?d never do."

The Clone War created an environment in the galaxy that placed the Jedi in situations where the sheer violence of conflict gave them autonomy in countering that violence. Palpatine created that violent environment through his deft manipulation, all of which gave Anakin permission to employ (if necessary) violence to accomplish a greater good. The 'greater good' gave Anakin the excuse of 'plausible deniability' to diffuse guilt over his increasingly aggressive actions.

In the article linked above, Dr. Phillip Zambardo, who conducted a famous POW experiment at Stanford in the 70s, stated: "human behavior is more influenced by things outside of us than inside. The ?situation? is the external environment. The inner environment is genes, moral history, religious training. There are times when external circumstances can overwhelm us, and we do things we never thought."

To make his point, Dr. Zambardo uses Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq as an example. The abusive guards were not that way when they were placed in their roles. They became that way after authorities gave them cart blanche permission to find ways to "soften these detainees up for interrogation."

This thread asks an important question in this light. I believe that "yes, Anakin was a tragic hero." He intends to do the right thing, but the cloud of the Dark Side, the Clone War, Palpatine and even the Jedi Council all gave Anakin a long leash to exercise basic survival instincts to combat the violence and evil. In doing so, he fell head first into the whirlpool of evil swirling dynamically around him -- and he fell tragically!

 

Very nice.

 

While this is an excellent thread and I believe that Anakin is, indeed, a "tragic hero", I must also point out that the above is a logical fallacy -- an argument from authority. Just because one person, even a revered scholar, believes something, it doesn't mean that anyone else necessarily should. Everyone must find their own answers.

 

Very, very good point.


And the answer is that Anakin is most definitely NOT a tragic hero. Certainly not by Aristotle's standards and I think it's a fair measure since he is the earliest person on record to explain this concept.

 

Anakin is not, in my opinion a tragic hero, as I explained above. However, I think this is actually a credit to George Lucas (even though I am often considered a basher on these boards); Lucas here shows that he has his own story to tell and is taking a risk by combining tragic elements with elements of classic heroic epic. I think he is to be lauded for following his own muse here, rather than merely plugging his characters into some established canon (i.e. Aristotle) or academic theory (i.e. Joseph Campbell). He was clearly influenced by both, but enough of a creative storyteller to still try to come up with a new story with new structure and twists. Whether he succeeds or fails is subject to our own interpretations and opinions, but he cannot be faulted for his ambitions as a storyteller.

 

That's an interesting point.

Is Lucas' real talent in SYNTHESISING / BLENDING disparate sources together? We know that all artists do this, but Lucas seems to have taken many fundamental entities and fused them together to create something that touches people perhaps BECAUSE of WHAT he's fused together and HOW he's done it.

 

I think that's why Campbell praised Lucas on ROTJ, once he saw the film and discussed it with Lucas. He kept the basic tennants of the mythological aspect of the story, but also combined it with other aspects to create his own tale. With it's own resolution that feature elements of Campbell and Aristotle. This is especially true when you look at how he uses different religious elements to create the Force. Blending both the Eastern and Western philosophies to create something that is the best of both worlds.

As defined in the traditional sense, Anakin isn't a tragic hero. But with a blended sensibility, he is both the classic and tragic.

 

I definitely agree that Lucas' genius is using established hero models to create very powerful and memorable characters. He does what he wants in the story, while still using archetypes. But those archetypes have been around for centuries for a reason.

I'm not sure how some can say that Anakin doesn't fit the Aristotelian tragic hero model, because from all my research, he fits into it extremely well, a rarity in todays cinema. He also fits the Shakespearean version of it. The only part where it skews is the eventual redemption at the end, but as I said above, it is only uncommon, not forbidden in the model. All that is required is eventual death. Tell me how it doesn't work based on the first post. Plus I think even Shakespeare himself would say the model is "more like guidelines, than actual rules." That's why it's a model. You must be allowed to tell your story.

 

Exactly! Give Michelangelo, Da Vinci, Van Gogh, Monet, Picasso, Dali and Warhol all the very same model to work from and then stand back and behold their creative glories!

 

RebelScum, redemption actually is more or less forbidden in the tragic model--that is what makes it tragic, as opposed to sad or depressing, these are not synonymous. This is not a value judgement, merely the definition of tragedy--a tragic hero cannot escape his or her tragic fate--they are inexorably drawn to doing "the wrong thing" even if "for the right reasons". The notion of redemption voids this fundamental precept of tragedy. Again, I think it is cool the Lucas takes elements of tragedy and reverses this at the end. This is an interesting and innovative twist on storytelling, using many tragic elements, but not making a tragedy. The PT can be seen as a tragedy, ending at RotS, particularly had Anakin died--he would have died after being transformed to evil as Darth Vader (minus the suit), all from his tragic flaw of trying to save his wife. However, the OT story is a tale of redemption, the opposite of tragedy. His death is not a tragedy in RotJ, but rather an apotheosis, a triumph of good over evil, anything but tragedy.

 

It seems like this needs to be done. Here we go:

The galaxy and the Republic is broken down and corrupt. Other characters -- from the Jedi Order, to Watto, to Palpatine -- are willingly or unwillingly exacerbating this problem. Enter Anakin.

Anakin has human frailties and desires to protect the ones and the things he loves.

Anakin is desperately fearful / power hungry. He eventually submits to Sidious and pledges himself to the Dark Side, ostracising himself from those he loves and society as a whole, painting the Jedi and other people as worse than they are.

a) Anakin chokes Padme and believes he has killed her.

b) The events that Anakin set into motion in timeframe "a" result in an Empire and an Emperor that imperils and almost kills his son, Luke.

a) Anakin spiritually "dies" within the tomb of the machine body of Darth Vader.

b) Anakin physically dies after defeating his own spiritual death and the "phantom menace" of Darth Vader / Darth Sidious forever.

a) Tatooine sunset reminds us of Luke and the possibility of hope / redemption.

b) Anakin sacrifices himself and his final spectral form reminds us of hope / redemption.

Anakin becomes a member of the Jedi Order, proficient warrior-monks and the esteemed guardians of peace and justice in the galaxy. We are told that he is the prophecised "Chosen One" and potential saviour of the galaxy.

Anakin is troubled upon leaving his mother, haunted by visions of her suffering, a witness to her death, an executioner of her captors and a being in conflict with what he's done. He becomes obsessed with the power to cheat death and avoid a repetition of his pain and anguish.

 

I want you on my debate team.
Great job