Anakin at end of ROTJ

I don't know if this has been posted before, and the search is crap, so here it goes:
If the ability to retain your appearance through the force after death was a skill obtained by Gui-Gon, and he only taught it to Yoda and Obi-Wan, how was Anakin, who spent most of his life in the dark side, able to do the same? No one would have taught it to him, unless Yoda taught it to Luke sometime, and after Vader killed Sids, Luke said "I have to drag you to a shuttle, and by the way Dad, Yoda told me something..."

 

Lamest edit GL made to the DVDs.

However I gues you can use the excuse because he is the chosen one.

 

I believe that Yoda and Obi-Wan helped Anakin do it. If memory serves me, Lucas even said so himself on the audio commentary.





Teamwork is great - when it works
/Flames

 

First, I don't believe Qui Gon learned to retain his appearance after death. I think he was on the right track to learning how to retain his appearance after death. I believe Yoda and Obi Wan are the ones who eventually master it in the years that follow ROTS.

Second, the ROTJ dvd commentary confirms what I already believed - that Obi Wan and Yoda play a part in Anakin appearing to Luke.

 

And he is The Chosen One so he can do much per instinct that others have to learn over a long period I guess.

The only thing he couldn't seem to learn was to tell when old evil men were lying through their teeth.

 

Anakin as a force ghost in ROTJ never made sense even in ROTJ in 1983, but as always what saved Lucas's writing where he veered off the cliff with the whole story of ROTJ, is that the OT was so general and left so many answers, you just accepted it and you really couldn't pinpoint an exact plot hole.

In ROTS, if QuiGon is the only one who learned this and he tells Yoda at the end of the movie, and Yoda teaches Kenobi between Episode III & IV, and Vader steps on Kenobi's cloak in ANH not knowing what the heck happened to his body, how does Anakin become a ghost at the end of ROTJ? The Lucas-spin machine answer is he learns it by himself somewhere between Episodes IV-VI, I don't buy it.

Anakin should have been exposed to something about the force ghost in the PT. He didn't need to know it specifically, but just be aware of it, so when he see's Kenobi disappear in ANH, he could say, "He must have figured out that force ghost trick Yoda talked about that he learned from QuiGon, mediated I must."

This is another fault of illogical writing by Lucas in ROTJ that now makes no sense after the PT, when it should have cleared it up. ROTJ was the beginning of this plot hole bonanza, but was saved by vaguness of the overall story of 4,5,6, and that I was always able to live with. The PT has just made the overall story make less sense, especially with the force ghost at the end of ROTJ.

 

What doesn't make sense?

Obi Wan and Yoda pass on and are later able to appear to Luke. Before passing away, Anakin tells Luke that he has 'saved' him. A short time later, Obi Wan and Yoda appear to Luke. Then Anakin's spirit also appears, confirming to Luke that his 'soul' has indeed been 'saved'. So, what's the problem? What specifically 'doesn't make sense'?

That's close, but not exactly right.

How does ANYBODY become a ghost?

If you're suggesting that Anakin would need to learn some trick in order to vanish, I might agree. If you're suggesting that Anakin needs to learn some trick in life in order to appear after death, I would say that you're wrong...and the film bears that out.

Well, I have good news - you don't have to buy that because you're wrong. The spin machine doesn't say that he learns it by himself between Episodes IV-VI.

The dvd commentary confirms that the spirits of Obi Wan and Yoda assist Anakin in the afterlife. Again, what's the problem?

You're only having a problem with it because you're trying to apply your own rules to how it all works.

 

I believe that Yoda and Obi-Wan helped Anakin do it. If memory serves me, Lucas even said so himself on the audio commentary.



First, I don't believe Qui Gon learned to retain his appearance after death. I think he was on the right track to learning how to retain his appearance after death. I believe Yoda and Obi Wan are the ones who eventually master it in the years that follow ROTS.

Second, the ROTJ dvd commentary confirms what I already believed - that Obi Wan and Yoda play a part in Anakin appearing to Luke.



You're only having a problem with it because you're trying to apply your own rules to how it all works.



It absolutely works and it's all there to be taken in.

 

Well this is just me, but I don't buy that whole "Qui-Gon learned the path to immortality and taught Yoda and Obi-Wan". It makes more sense if all Jedi could just do it. And if you really want to get down into details, then the reason why Mace Windu and the other Jedi don't show up at the end of ROTJ is because they were never a part of Luke's life, so he wouldn't see them.

 

^^ But Alpha that is what RoTS says...Qui Gon learned the path to immortality. He teaches it to Yoda and Obi Wan from the afterlife.

Obi Wan & Yoda help Anakin (the chosen one) to accomplish it as well -- from their afterlife.

I think it works out fine.


Off topic but -- POST 1000 FOR ME!

 

Congrats, DARTHFINGERZ.

You need to be more loquacious.

 

Why? It's more spiritual and mysterious that way.

 

Agreed. We can all make excuses for these issues. As a fan I like to myself to some degree. It is evident however that Lucas does contridict himself and does alter the OT just like he will do the same with the PT. There are three different versions of the OT movies. I believe that even Lucas is confused about his vision at times. If some fans want to say they are confused by some things or see plot holes is it any wonder after the creator has tampered so much with his own movies and thus is becoming transparently clear of being undecided himself.

I can live with the changes. I like the majority of them but additionally I sympathise with the fans who see the flaws.[/quote]

I respect that. If you see what I see, and don't have a hard time with the supposed contradictions. You don't make excuses, you just enjoy the films.

 

I respect that. If you see what I see, and don't have a hard time with the supposed contradictions. You don't make excuses, you just enjoy the films. [/quote]


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Exactly. I think you have to. Otherwise your mind would be filled with what version is right? What version do I enjoy most? Did Greedo really shoot first? Did Leia mean her Mother or Step Mother? 19 years to build a death star opposed to 3 years? Qui Gon? Yoda taught Obi-Wan? The list goes on.

Sometimes leaving my brain in a neutral gear lets me enjoy the experience more. I don't like many new changes. Even small points like the Jabba dance routine/song in ROTJ or the "Little shop of Horrors sarlacc pitt or Boba's new voice but I have come to accept these changes. Personally the only benefical change since the altered additions that holds up in my eyes is the new scene with Palpatine's hologram in ESB and removing Shaw's eyebrows in ROTJ.

Personally I think Lucas should of left his masterpiece in it's original condition.

 

If you're accusing Lucas of revisionism, I agree that he is guilty of that - 'Greedo shoots first' is a good example.

Adding Hayden to the ghost scene is another example.

But Lucas' explanation in the dvd commentary that Anakin is aided by the spirits of Obi Wan and Yoda is just a CONFIRMATION for me of what I've always believed, and I can explain why.


From the dialogue about Obi Wan becoming more powerful than Vader could possibly imagine and Obi Wan's eventual vanishing act, I always believed that he knew how to do something that Vader didn't. Later, I assumed that Yoda also knew.

In the final moments of the story, Obi Wan and Yoda appear first - then Anakin follows. When Anakin does appear, he looks at them with an expression that I always interpreted as gratitude. Putting those elements together, I always thought it was obvious that they had helped him appear to assure Luke (and the audience) that Anakin's spirit had in fact been 'saved'.

I've held this belief since I first saw the film in '83, so the commentary only confirms what I already knew.

IMO, it's all the EU stuff that came afterward that complicated and confused the issue.

 

Simplest reason: Anakin is the Chosen One. Chosen by the Force. If the Chosen One doesn't get to be a Force ghost, who should?

(although this is kinda saying "It was the Will of the Force" which most people, understandably, don't like as an explanation.)

 

Twilek Jedi
If the Chosen One doesn't get to be a Force ghost, who should?

Maybe people who aren't mass murderers?

 

ShaneP, who do you think should decide when a person's soul is worthy of forgiveness?

 

Well not George Lucas that's for sure. He seems to think it's great if tyrants go through a 1-step reform program 10 seconds before they die while the victims of this person languish in some nether region.

It's really pretty despicable when you think about it. It's not a satisfying conclusion whatsoever.

I think the Force should decide. And what better way to show it's once again in balance by showing the victims of the dark times reappear as ghosts at the end.

Forget the "it's a trick" BS. Just have the Force show that everything is right again.

LLS
If anything, his 'reward' for turning his back on evil is that his soul is not lost.

But that's the thing.....we see that how? His appearance as a force ghost. That's how we know. Have all the other jedi, Qui-Gon, Ki-Adi, etc, appear as a bunch of ghosts throughout the forest. Then cut to Luke.....then cut to Obi-Wan and Yoda..then have them all disappear. Then cut to Leia grabbing Luke and returning to the campfire.

The End.

 

In the context of the story, I think the Force did decide.

And why wouldn't you assume that the souls of Vader's victims are in an appropriate place?

You seem to want to embrace the idea that once someone has committed evil, there is no point in them considering changing their ways.

 

I always use a similar thought to explain this. Anakin was concieved by the midichlorians. A virgin birth, akin to Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ was a man, but he was part of god. Anakin Skywalker was a man, but he was part of the force. The rest of us try to be good so that we may someday go to heaven. Jesus was going to heaven because he is god. Yoda/Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan learned some secret to joining the force. Anakin was already the force, no need to join with it.

No, I'm not a Bible Thumper. No, I don't believe that Jesus Christ existed, but I don't believe Anakin Skywalker existed either so it is just a paralell explanation from our society.

Carnage

 

LLS, but we, the audience, don't have any visual cues that Vader's victims are in an appropriate place. There is no closure. All we see is the murderer appear as a force ghost.

It can be rectified simply:

Just put a bunch of force ghosts behind Kenobi and Yoda. That would show that the Force is once again in harmony.

 

From the other thread:

(My feelings about Hayden in the scene is a whole other issue.)

In response to "What is it?", I would say that Anakin's ability to appear to Luke isn't the reward - it is simply a means to communicate a message to Luke about the 'reward'.

Do you get what I'm saying? If Luke received a 'ghostly' message over the phone, it wouldn't mean that Anakin's reward was a cellphone. The phone call would only be a means of telling Luke about the 'reward'.


Re: the 'reward' aspect - some people seem to think that looking like Hayden is some kind of 'reward'. I think that's silly and superficial. How he appears can be symbolic, but I think that is all it is - a representation.

Again, I think Anakin's 'reward' is that by turning his back on evil, his soul is not lost.

I don't think his 'reward' is the ability to sneek into bank vaults and girls' dorms.

edit:

Okay, Shane, now I know you're pulling my leg.

At the very least, Captain Needa should appear in the ghost scene to let us know that he doesn't hold a grudge. Maybe Anakin can be depicted apologizing to him.