PT "Anakin became evil too quickly"

Exactly.

So....Anakin throttling his own beloved wife in ROTS is the same as Vader throttling Motti? It's clearly not..and so the impetus for these (seemingly, on a superficial basis) similar behaviours are entirely distinct.

In fact, thinking about this....there's maybe a better way of highlighting the disjoint between ROTS Vader and OT Vader. In the OT Vader is working with, embracing his anger and the darkside - he throttles who he wants to throttle. In ROTS he is thrashing around, as if blind to what he is doing, as if under a spell, or high, or drunk...

..and after he awakes in the suit that has worn off; he regrets. There is no sense that I can get that that (ROTS 'high' Vader) is the precursor to the man we are confronted with from ANH onwards.

 

I agree. I'm exactly the same person I was 20 years ago, and I believe Darth Vader should be as well.

 

'Precursor'. Not 'same person' so...not even an argument.....strawman.

 

You're having trouble coming to grips with how the Darth Vader in ROTS could be the precursor to the one in ANH, right?

precursor - something that comes before something else and that often leads to or influences its development

You're right it wasn't much of an argument, but I don't believe you're making much of a point. There's nothing really to reconcile here. It's easy to imagine that Darth Vader's humanity eroded over the years to the point where choking someone became tantamount to riding a speeder bike. Just a normal everyday occurrence that over the course of 20 years becomes easier and easier. Now to me it seems quite obvious the metamorphosis someone goes through to become opaquely evil. At the start they rationalize their actions, erroneously believing what they're doing is right or justifiable, but over time these behaviors and these actions start to drown out that little voice inside them that tells them what their doing is wrong, because it simply doesn't matter anymore. They've accepted who they are and that's Vader in ANH. ROTS Vader wouldn't commit homicide and be that detached from his own humanity to not have an emotional response.

I mean, if I'm mischaracterizing your expectations of the character, please do tell me. It just sounds like you want static character development within a 20 year time frame.

 

That's true. Everyone changes, even a little bit. There is a difference between change and adaptation. I think it's impossible for anyone to avoid both.

Vader changed when he decided to allow his emotions to rule him. Previously, he had attempted to shackle and constrain them, and that made the situation worse. Luke, by contrast, allowed himself to cry and feel things without letting his emotions corrupt him.

 

So..throttled my own wife while high on @unlimited powaaaah. Realise I've gone against all my principles and LOST. Everything.


You know...rationalise is such an easy word to throw into a discussion, but it actually requires a basis to rationalise from. That "Noooooo" at the end of ROTS....not a basis upon which to 'rationalise' your position and acceptance of @unlimited powaaaah. There is no (to quote your own precursive requirement)

"erroneously believing what they're doing is right or justifiable"


..and so the argument has to resolve to.....a form of 'he couldn't think of anything better to do', often transliterated into 'he realises all he has left is Palpatine'.

I just see that as a weak basis for the development of the Vader we discover in the OT. I would have expected him to have some form of that precursive expectation that...what he's done was right or necessary - that he could see a viable positive reason and outcome in what he had done so that...he could fall further into his justifications and rationalising. ie that there was something there to rationalise, something that offered a sense of justification.

 

Usually when you peal back the curtain on someone who's classified as being "great" the more disappointed you are when the hallmarks of greatness are sorely lacking. I think this kind of response was inevitable. Vader being an actual person, with real flaws, and vulnerabilities was always going to lead to a demystification of some kind. That isn't to say you have to be happy with Anakin's portrayal in the prequels, but to me no matter who wrote the character or who articulated his lines I would expect this type of reaction to a character as iconic as Vader showing even the smallest glimpse of humanity.

 

"One of the problems of Sith is that they are always quick to anger. This scene with her it was very important that we set it up to the point where he chokes her as he does with one of the generals in ANH. But at the same time he doesn’t kill her and he just causes her to faint but you get to see that flash of anger which he now doesn’t have much control over."

--George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.

Anakin was very consciously aware that he was choking his wife and did so intentionally as a form of punishment for betraying him. What is different is that when he lets go of her, we see that brief flash of surprise before it disappears. His anger being subsided on Coruscant is due to his injuries. It comes back with her death and he holds onto it as now he has nothing left. Not to mention there's also twenty years between trilogies.

 

This is the point though.

For those who simply wanted Vader to be evil only they NEVER were going to be happy but they like to pretend to themselves that if it was done "differently" then it would have "worked".

That is why for people of that mind ROTJ was so disappointing with Vader being not the actual bad guy. I was totally the opposite. While other people were going on about side issues like Jabba's palace, Ewoks, Leia and Han and another Death Star the real story that fascinated me was Luke, Vader and the Emperor. Which is why the dynamic of Anakin and Palpatine and all the story around it are the strongpoints for me.

Got you there!

As we ALL know it's impossible for a person to be thinking about multiple things at once.

We all have one track minds and can't possibly juggle things like that.

It's far too complex.

Next thing you'll be saying Vader was doing the same kind of thing in ROTJ.

Clearly he always planned to kill the Emperor and waited decades for his chance!

Now for my next trick we'll go over how Luke actually was about to say "Enough! I will go over to the Dark side." When Vader ruined it all!!

It was masterful I'd say.

Best actor of the entire saga.

Again this likeability idea being tied to something. What does it even mean? Interesting is far prefeable to liking. Would you like to actually meet Anakin/Vader? Of course not.

If I think about Darth Vader it measures up brilliantly.

This has been gone over again and again recently. That Anakin was already very Sith-like after finding out. You do remember that Anakin wanted to KILL Palpatine right? But he also wanted to use his knowledge to save Padme but pretty soon was already plotting to kill Sidious.

Because Vader is such a good guy? No he's evil. He kills people. He uses them. You know the same guy that we first see in the black armor?

Best Star Wars movie ever. Doubt it will ever be beat. Anakin is great. The lines are brilliant and the actor the best performance ever in Star Wars.

 

The difference is, when he was choking Padme, he was still waffling between his Anakin and Darth Vader personas. When he was choking Motti, he'd fully embraced his identity as Darth Vader. He's still just as angry as he ever was, except now (like Bruce Banner in The Avengers) he's always angry, so he seems more in control, even though he really isn't.

 

If you cannot restrain yourself from murdering your subordinates as an expression of your disapproval of on-the-job failure, then I would argue that you are--clearly--not in control. I would hope this is not a controversial opinion.

The only difference between Anakin and Vader is that Vader really doesn't care whether or not he's in control of his emotions. He does whatever he wants to do, restrained only by fear of his master. It's not like anybody can really stop him. If it was really that important to him that Motti be dead, then Motti would be dead. The fact is, Vader just doesn't put that much thought into it either way. He kills on a whim. There's a part of him deep down inside that knows it's wrong, but he ignores that part of himself. He doesn't want to be in control of his emotions, because it feels good to let them control you. And when you're a Sith, full of hate and anger, being out of control actually works in your favor.

 

For some reason I keep finding myself splitting the difference in discussions recently. I don't think your 2 points are in conflict. In the OT, I don't think Vader typically kills out impulsiveness or a lack of control. At the same time, once he decides it makes sense to kill someone, he allows himself to sadistically enjoy the anger of killing.

The Sith are sadists by nature. If they could, they'd kill and torture just for fun, but they have to restrain that impulse because you can't run an empire by killing everyone you come across. Palpatine is almost always in control in the PT. That's how he's able to scheme and manipulate so well. He only gets to have some rage-fun when killing off the Jedi and fighting Yoda, which he seems to enjoy every minute of.

To maintain control, the Sith have learned to give into anger only when appropriate. Mostly they use bursts of anger to motivate their subordinates through fear. When a subordinate fails too often, Vader then allows himself give in to anger and his urge to kill. Then, the next guy in line sees what's in store for him if he doesn't do his job well. The problem with Anakin in ROTS is that he hasn't learned to control his anger yet, so he lashes out rashly -- for instance, when he jumps at Obi-Wan even though Obi-Wan is in the superior position. By the OT, Vader has learned when he has to control his anger and when he can let loose and have fun. Also, I certainly don't excuse Anakin when he's choking Padme. By the end of ROTS, he's totally lost it and he's evil then. Even Padme realizes that. I simply think his behavior at the end of ROTS is in-keeping with someone consumed (but not in control of) the dark side. That doesn't make his behavior moral, just understandable.

I think Vader's choking of Motti is the one exception. He doesn't want to put up with Motti disrespecting him, and he just lets Motti have it. In the other cases, it served a strategic purpose. He killed knowing full well that there would be competent replacement. He's just pissed at Motti.

 

And in the case of Motti, it's kind of understandable because the guy's going off on a rant that had nothing to do with the meeting to insult Vader's personal beliefs. It'd be the equivalent of interrupting a board meeting to insult your boss's religion, not a smart thing to do.

 

I think it's fair to say that Anakin is more "in control" in the OT and has a kind of business-as-usual stance toward his own emotions and the failings of others.

He is still learning to walk -- so to speak -- on Mustafar. Still dealing with fresh powers. And still a little bothered by his conscience.

That, and, you really need to take into account his horrific injuries at the end of the duel. Talk about baptism by fire.

Is it inconceivable that Anakin might have adopted a more mannered approach and gained hold of himself after his physical trauma and being placed in the suit?

Personally, I don't think it is.

 

Nicely put. This is basically how I have seen it since around '05. If you watch the movies 1-6 it's really not that difficult to see. To me it doesn't read like the contradiction others seem to see.
And frankly, I still think detractors are reaching in saying that all the subtext of the progressive Anakin/Vader character arc is stripped just because Anakin's actual ultimate moment where he sells his soul and pledges to Palpatine comes about because he selfishly wants to save Padme. It just seems too simple-minded.


Something I love about watching the six movies as a complete story (despite some consistency flaws which are admittedly still there) is the way themes and dialogue from each trilogy re-enforce each other. Particularly regarding Anakin and Vader.

A relevant example; where Vader states to Obi-Wan in ANH "When I left you I was but the learner. Now I am the Master." it can indeed now read as Vader admitting he is now has developed far more composure than when Obi-Wan bested him on Mustafar. Dialogue which originally of course implied Vader turned before graduating to Jedi from under Obi-Wan's tutelage, I think was considered when writing the prequels to now be more metaphorical, more that Vader is now saying Obi-Wan was too good for him on the lavabanks of Mustafar, and while he may have been stripped of some of his power, he has grown wiser.

Another example; Yoda's description of the darkside as the quick and easy path in ESB, while literally illustrating that the Jedi path requires more patience and the darkside is the easy way out (also re-enforced by ROTS), it also can be a kind of metaphor which helps explain why Anakin, after turning, is consumed quite quickly by it's corrupting influence. It is probably obvious to us fans, but when a new viewer gets to ESB and Yoda warns Luke "If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will!" it resonates with what is seen of the consuming and ensaring nature of Anakin's fall in ROTS. In the OT, it seems everyone, including Vader himself, believes there is no coming back, and it would probably have been true without Luke's help to bring about something in Anakin that is unprecedented by a Sith as far as we are shown.

 

I just wanted to add another IMO strong reocurring theme.

I think Luke's reaction to his vision of his friends' fate on Bespin isn't at all cheapened by Anakin's turn being set in motion by a similar vision. Granted, some may see it as a gimicky attempt to bridge the trilogies, but if anything I think it makes ESB darker and more emotionally intense than it already was.
Besides the perhaps obvious plot thread where we are worried Luke will follow his father's path, it really adds a quite biting sadomasochistic element to Vader's trap for Luke in the fifth film.
The fact that Vader knows Luke is his son, and will be susceptible to the same weakness as Vader's former identity, and therefore fall, is as cold as ever. But consider that it seems to imply that Vader now doesn't even miss his old life enough to see any loss in Luke going through the same transformation. He has basically no memory of himself before turning that he keeps in his conscious thought, it's covered and cut-off. Vader has completely embraced being evil and feels no sympathy for Luke, and by extension himself. It makes the character that little bit darker I think.

 

I feel much the same way. The argument is both asking too much and too little of others. At the risk of repeating myself, it's crudely cajoling people to choose between binary opposites, rather than allowing for shades of grey. And yes, that seems too simple-minded, to me.

Indeed. The films, through certain characters, and other incidental details, depict falling to the Dark Side as a deep and tragic circumstance; something that no-one can come back from. But Anakin does with Luke's help. That's the reward of watching the saga I-VI. The momentous change at the end. Anakin triumphing and Luke proving his mentors wrong.

I like that. I commented recently that there is a lot of "covering up" in the saga. A little list, by no means extensive:

- Threepio complains to Anakin that he would prefer to be more completed in TPM, and he dutifully receives covers, though not from Anakin, in AOTC. In ROTS, he has new covers.
- Anakin, of course, gets his prosthetic limb in AOTC, and has covered that up one film later in ROTS.
- After the "Emperor" emerges following his battle with Mace, he puts on the hood and lets out a notable gasp as it sinks into place.
- Anakin partially covers his own face with a hood when doing his dark deeds as Vader.
- When he is finally destroyed almost beyond recognition, Anakin is carried away from Mustafar and fully ensconced in the Vader suit.
- Qui-Gon dons that poncho before heading off into Mos Espa.
- Jar Jar gains heavy ceremonial robes on Coruscant, replacing the semi-revealing slacks he had when banished.
- Padme partially hides behind the elaborate get-up of Queen Amidala and the persona of Amidala more generally.
- Yoda talks about a "shroud" falling at the end of AOTC.
- Anakin and Padme marry in secret and they both hide their union and impending parenthood from those they serve.
- The Jedi conspire with Bail, at the end of ROTS, and basically agree amongst themselves to paste over the past, and Bail orders Threepio's mind to be wiped.
- Even the cinematography plays along, with elaborate cuts and wipes, sometimes occurring "in-scene".

This all reaches a rather ecstatic climax when Luke is facing down Vader and glances at his hand: a hand that was replaced in the middle instalment of his trilogy, like Anakin's, and then covered up in the next film. Finally, there is a more conscious recognition of what all the players had been doing all along: denying parts of themselves and their commonality with others. (This epiphany occurs on a semi-naked Death Star).

It's quite an inspiring series, actually.

 

Good point.

Yeah. It's a little frustrating to me really, there is a fair amount to these films that isn't spelled out for you, yet to most evidence of this is seen just as fans making excuses for the work. It isn't too much to ask that material such as repeated dialogue between (and within) films of the same series, let alone the significance of entire arcs and scenes, be considered when already taking the time to discuss and analyse the deeper meaning and logic of the films.

True, although to be fair this still works similarly if you watch 4-6,1-3. Both orders have strong merits. I watch 1-6, but it worked well for me watching 4-6,1-3 initially then continuing watching 1-6 on completion of the prequels.

I just wanted to briefly clarify, I meant specifically that Vader feels no sympathy for Luke until most of the way through ESB. There is a spark there by then, but at this stage it is mostly "covered" (heh) by his perception of Luke as a tool to overthrow The Emperor.

Interesting list!

Makes sense with all the talk of Threepio's significance as a symbol for a lot of what is going on through the films.

Yes, I think you are implying he is symbolically trying to hide his weakness or flaw?

The moment with the cloak is significant I think. If I'm not mistaken we never see him without it for the rest of the saga. Maybe an obvious visual cue of his "transformation" to ROTJ Palpatine, but of course we know, nothing within him has actually essentially changed here. Could you comment on what you think this covering represents?

Similar to the Emperor's visual cue for the audience, but with Anakin very much an indication that he isn't the same person. I think it also relates to Vader trying to emphasise to himself that he is a new person as a Sith, even if he is forcing an image that isn't yet fully him. Pretty obviously, he takes the hood off at Padme's apartment and when she approaches him on Mustafar.

Yes, the most obvious visual metaphor I think.

All arguably related to disguises.

Very significant one, although the shroud doesn't seem to have fallen here at all. I loved the idea of the PT characters being covered by a metaphorical cloud.

Nice one, with Padme hiding her bump and everything. I'm not a big fan of some of the romance in AOTC, but the concept of their secret marriage is tragically moving.

So true.

It could be seen in that light.

That's a cool observation about the DSII. I had seen it more as a foreboding image of what would happen if it was completed, and the image of it is quite haunting, it is one of the most significant images in the saga for me. It still gives me chills when I see it, even knowing the Rebels will win is part of it I think.

Still my favourite film series

 

Gonna be a bit long. We seem to do this...

Thanks.

Some people really suck at hermeneutics.

Yes. I wondered if I'd expressed it in the right terms. The viewing order pronouncement is possibly an unconscious red herring on my part.

Nice. There are ancestral triggerings in Vader's soul in TESB, however, I think.

One to watch out for is the way Vader tortures Han, first with heat, then with cold (freezing). He is shown leering at or over Han on both occasions. Especially when Han is being frozen. There is a close-up on Vader peering down through the smoke.

And there is a rueful line from Vader before Han is frozen: "He will not be permanently damaged." Unlike what happened to Anakin on Mustafar. It sounds, well, cold and indifferent, but if you think back to Anakin's fate, the line has a tragic dimension to it.

Poor Vader seems to have a few stirrings in the carbon freezing chamber. While controversial, there is also his sparing of Threepio from blaster fire, which some have read into as Vader recognizing his former droid. But perhaps unconsciously: a reflex reaction.

Many thanks.

I think so! Threepio never more powerfully symbolizes that for me, these days, than in the droid factory on Geonosis.

He is violently separated -- decapitated -- and re-purposed, ready to be literally marched into battle, in the bright light of day.

What I've noticed, as well, is that the music is similarly chopped up and re-purposed in both the droid factory sequence and the following battle (from TPM and also other parts of AOTC), which certainly earned Lucas some criticism back in the day. But what's interesting is that most of this occurs during Threepio's accident (though there's a tad more recycling, during some aerial battle footage, a little later), comically accentuating the mad march of the narrative and the "machinery" of the film generally (it is a "clone" war, bursting forth, after all).

I'm saying it's weird what a victim Threepio is, basically. The way he is mercilessly made the object of some violent, and not particularly subtle, humour. The same happens to his comedy rival (not Artoo, but Jar Jar). Jar Jar is called upon to essentially gift Palpatine his emergency powers. They are both made massive fools. Threepio is eventually stopped, but Jar Jar isn't. All of Threepio's actions in the open arena are basically trifling, but Jar Jar's one conscious act in the domed arena dooms the galaxy. Perhaps there is a commentary here on the other characters, especially Anakin. They are doing things from a peculiar point of innocence (Jar Jar) or because their behaviour has been irrevocably altered by the mechanism of war and manufactured identity (Threepio).

But I'm also fascinated by the way the film itself uses and abuses them. I've previously said that the droid factory is inherently weird: like a haunted house (and underground). Things are happening inside under their own steam. And I'm not sure the layout makes full sense. It's a bit like The Overlook Hotel in "The Shining". A strange place that satirizes the scrambled, tortured topology of the movie. A movie within a movie. And Threepio is its most manifest victim. He is also the first to "disappear". He remarks on being "confused" -- again, like the film text is actually talking about itself (or the surface narrative) -- and then he's shunted away, to be forgotten, for a while. The sequence concludes with Artoo rescuing Padme (not Anakin), Anakin freeing his arm, and both Padme and Anakin being captured. The droids go unnoticed.

Apologies for the digression.

I was leaving it open-ended.

That would be the main inference, though, yes.

I don't think I've come to any real conclusions. It basically just says: "The Emperor has arrived". If you wanted a slightly deeper connection, however, it's worth noting (I need to do a longer post on this) that Obi-Wan is the hidden "Emperor" of the PT. You will find many parallels between Obi-Wan and Sidious. Obi-Wan puts his hood over his head when departing Padme after trying to ascertain Anakin's whereabouts. Anakin also flips his hood up when walking away from his ship on Mustafar to go slaughter him some separatists. But the parallels between Sidious and Obi-Wan are more remarkable to me.

Or maybe Sidious was just cold. The window had just been smashed out, after all.

Yes. It's also a means of empowering oneself. If you obscure your face, your emotions can't be read as easily, nor can your identity be ascertained as quickly. Anonymity is very empowering (look how people behave online). I will add that a hood completes the "robed" effect and brings optical unity to the body.

Indeed. The real "gestalt" item on the list.

Nice! I hadn't consciously noticed that I grouped those TPM characters together like that.

All three of them.

"Before the dark times, before the Empire."

A bump, a sphere. Palpatine also hides the Death Star.

Biologic and technologic "life"/"death" structures.

I forgot to say, of course, that they also agree to hide the children.

Oh, most certainly.

It's a work-in-progress: a created thing in a discrete stage of development. It could almost sum the saga up at that point in time.

The other metaphor I have is "decayed moon". This goes well with Endor, a "forest moon" harbouring life, and also the place first protecting the Death Star (the shield generator), then leading to its destruction.

Mine, too.

 

I really like your point here. I hadn't ever considered it. It is really cold on Vader's part to use the weakness of strong attachment that brought him down to try to lure someone else to the dark side, particularly his son. It also shows his hypocrisy because I'm sure he still hates Palpatine for leading him on a path that led to his wife's death, yet he's still willing to use that weakness to trick Luke.

It also adds to the moment when Luke refuses to join him and jumps to what Luke apparently expects to be his death. Giving up his life rather than joining Palpatine was an option for Anakin after Mace's death, but Anakin was too selfish (about Padme and himself) and too afraid to make that choice.

At the end of TESB, when Vader seems contemplative, it's no stretch to imagine that Vader is thinking that his son took a more noble path than he did and that he's considering what would have happened to him, his "soul," and even the greater galaxy, if he had made a similar sacrifice.

 

I can see the origin of Darth Vader being very differently written and shortened actually. It could have been as simple as Anakin and Obi-Wan being on a battle mission during the Clone Wars. Anakin gets in some sort of circumstance which injures to the extent of needing to become a cyborg like a fiery crash or encounter with a volcanic eruption. He blames the Jedi for his disfigurement and permanent injuries, especially Obi-Wan and seeks revenge. This explains the rise of Darth Vader in a much faster fashion.