PT "Anakin became evil too quickly"

Photo by Robert Gardiner

LAVA THEN ATTACK THE TEMPLE IN THE SUIT

back in the 1970s when George said that Anakin was thrown in lava I had always assumed that is what made him turn fully evil. The biggest problem with EPIII is that it just seems like such a huge transition to him suddenly going full evil and killing kids. I think it should have been
1) He kills mace out of defending Palpatine
2) He takes his first step and starts turning to the dark side
3) He kills the separatists, since they are the enemy this is “dark” but not such a huge leap.
4) He gets attacked by burned to a crispy critter and that, combined with the death of Padme (or maybe just believing he had killed her) is what leads him to totally hate the Jedi and so
5) He attacks the temple.as a suited Vader.

I’m not saying this is perfect but it seems to make more sense to me than simply killing Mace and then killing kids. Partially because the burning scene is so horrific that you could see him totally turning evil at that point but not before. The scene with him turning“evil” after killing mace just doesn’t have the same dramatic impact.

 

The point of his killing the Younglings is that Palpatine has convinced him that it solves the problem of a prolonged civil war, which would result in thousands more deaths. The Jedi are already the Enemy because they tried to depose Palpatine. Those kids are going to grow up to swell the ranks of the Jedi and to continue the war against the Chancellor. Anakin's killing them is not an act of "evil" from his point of view, it's necessary to end the war before it starts.

 

That was before he wrote ROTJ. In 1981, Lucas said in the story meeting transcripts that Anakin and Obi-wan were separated by separate missions. Anakin spent time with Palpatine who was able to seduce him to the dark side of the Force and he then went around killing various Jedi, on various worlds. Obi-wan learned of this and went to find him by going to see Anakin's wife. When he found out that she was with twin children, he hid them on Alderaan and then went to confront Vader on the volcano planet and it was here that he was injured. Then Palpatine showed up and Obi-wan took off for Alderaan. The twins were divided up and Palpatine put Vader in the suit. This is why Lucas said that 60% of ROTS was based on ideas that he already had in mind. So Lucas decisions were correct based on what he had in mind in 81.

 

Thanks for the above info from 1981 it's very interesting. I still think how it plays on the screen doesn't work as well and they should have either done Lava first then attack the temple OR somehow show a more dramatic turn to the dark side where you see him turning evil in a more dramatic and well acted fashion. The idea that "once you start down the dark side forever will it consume your destiny" and you just go totally evil all at once is a good one, but it doesn't come across on the screen for me and lots of other people.

I will say I LOVE Revenge Of The Sith overall this is just a sticking point for me.

 

I still think it's brilliant how Lucas showed that the suit was necessary because Anakin had turned to the Dark Side, rather than Anakin turned the Dark Side because of the suit. Anakin's turn works perfectly for me!

 

That's why he did it that way. Anakin's actions were not about revenge, but about betrayal. The revenge is Palpatine's to take on the Jedi and the Republic.

"...some of the people had a hard time with the reason that Anakin goes bad. Somebody asked whether somebody could kill Anakin's best friend, so that he really gets angry. They wanted a real betrayal, such as, "You tried to kill me so now I'm going to try and kill you." They didn't seem to understand the fact that Anakin is simply greedy. There is no revenge. The revenge of the Sith is Palpatine. It doesn't have much to do with Darth Vader; he's a pawn in the whole scheme....

So I had to ask myself, what was I trying to say and didn't I say it? Did it just get missed or it is it not there? I had to look at it very hard. I had to ask myself, is this how the audience is going to react? Fortunately, Steven confirmed that most of everything was working. So I may lose a certain demographic - maybe, maybe not. But I had to make a decision, and I decided that I'm not going to alter the film to make it more commercial or marketable."

--George Lucas, The Making of ROTS, page 188.

 

Great quote from George thanks. Interesting that he said Anakin is simply greedy, simply a character flaw in a way not just that he had bad things happen to him.

A friend of mine and I were talking about how many people didn't like Anakin in the prequels, how it made it out to a whiny, creepy, unlikable little character in so many ways. It occurred to me that maybe that is for the best, IE most bullies and bad people were probably that way when they were young, IE he wasn't all that likable to begin with.

 

Well, Lucas's goals wasn't to make him unlikable. His point was in showing the flaws of a good man. Even before he settled on the story that he did, it was said early enough that Darth Vader was seduced by the dark side of the Force. So Lucas was consistent in that, but he also needed to have that moment where Anakin does this terrible thing that condemns him. So that is why we see a mixture of greed and a small bit of revenge. The greed is his motivation throughout, while revenge only centers on why he takes pleasure in killing the Separatist Council and what Palpatine uses as justification for killing Dooku.

 

I can totally see the idea of Anakin going to kill the Separatists off first on Mustafar and joining the dark side. It would be an interesting fan edit to see this sequence reversed and moved. Perhaps even Anakin's visions of Padme dying come from his fear that she is instead assassinated by the Separatists during the war soon. After all it was Vice Roy Gunray which tried to kill her in AOTC. He seeks out the Separatist leaders in part over his anger of them starting the war and also trying to kill Padme.

The Jedi could sense what he is doing and follow him there.

 

Yes that's interesting that killing the seperatists would be motivated by trying to protect padme as well, ironically he ended up killing her in doing that.

The Guy who did Star Wars Revisted and is working on Empire Revisited has spoke of doing a massive fan edit of the prequels where something like this could happen, IE It's a suited Vader that attacks the temple. He's going to try to make it though where it's not clear that Vader and Skywalker are the same person, not sure if that's possible and it will be years before he finishes this work.

 

A fan edit in the order described by redlightning wouldn't work because it would play like this:

1. Anakin -- now dubbed Darth Vader but not yet in the suit -- goes to Mustafar to kill the Separatists.
2. Anakin/Vader returns to Coruscant to attack the Jedi Temple/kill those upstart Younglings.
3. Anakin/Vader then returns to Mustafar to fight Kenobi? Why?

It doesn't make any sense.

 

The thing is that in the film, when Anakin submits to Palpatine, he is sent out to kill their enemies. First with the Jedi, who would move against the Senate and Padme is a senator. Then with the attack on the Separatist Council, they're removing the very real threat to the galaxy and thus to Padme. That's why Lucas saved Anakin's yellow eyes for that moment rather than in the Temple. He well and truly hated Nute and the others compared to the Jedi. So in a way, he already eliminates his enemies and takes revenge on those who threatened everything that he cared for.

 

Turning to the dark side has always been absurdly quick. Didn't Sheev expect Luke kill Vader and then turn?

 

I like it & would love to have seen suited Vader clean house at the temple but I think there could be a problem with time. If Obi-Wan fights Anakin & he gets sliced up then put in the suit it wouldn't be realistic for Vader to immediately be so physically capable that soon. He'd surely need time to get used to the suit, the artificial limbs etc before he could eliminate a temple full of Jedi. Palpatine's coup relies on speed of action. Can't see how you can have Anakin turn & fight Obi-Wan on Mustafar AND have the temple still operating with Jedi for another several weeks or even months.

 

I think the shroud of the dark side was clouding the Jedi's vision to realize they need to train Anakin with extra-attention to detail. He has the highest midi-chlorian count and the prophecy matched up to him, therefore had more understanding from the Jedi about his pain and problems had been shown, he would've never turned so quickly(may have not turned at all). To me, it was obvious Anakin was tired of being hurt and loss, therefore he took the easy way to be all mighty and powerful. When he told Padme "together we can rule the galaxy" in ROTS, you could see he was meaning to do well and did not think he was turning evil. He was so focused on stopping all his fears and stopping pain from occurring to him again that he made quick actions. To me, it wasn't too quick of a fall to full-on evil as many believe it was in ROTS...And let's remember, he always had some good and had some of the Light Side left in him, it just took till ROTJ to finally see the Light Side in him be revealed once again.

 

Only thing about him slaughtering the children, I understand why it was left in and it doesn't damage the image of Darth Vader to me, but to some it does as he is a no-nonsense military leader and no one ever thought he would have ever slaughtered children. Probably would've been better if he stepped in the room where the younglings were at and right before he was about to kill the younglings, he would've changed his mind about him killing them and told the Clones to wipe out the younglings

 

I reject the idea that a Sith Lord would balk at killing children. They're evil. That's the point of being a Sith. They stop at nothing to achieve their ends.

 

Yes and no. Anakin starts his journey with the Tusken Raiders, but is holding back from going down that path again. So after Geonosis, Palpatine sets up various encounters between Anakin and either Dooku, or Ventress in order to provoke him into becoming angry enough to kill in cold blood. But when Anakin did kill Dooku, even though it opened the door to the dark side, part of him was still hesitant. But he was becoming more and more evil. All the angry outbursts in front of the Council that he never displayed before. Talking about wanting more and more power. His increasing paranoia about the Jedi.

The thing is that Palpatine thought that Obi-wan was his Achilles heel, when it was really Padme. That's why when Dooku died, Anakin didn't submit to him and still felt conflicted. But once Padme was threatened, Anakin became more and more his servant. So it went with Luke on the Death Star. Threatening the Alliance started the fight, but Luke stopped himself from embracing the dark side. It was only when Vader found out that Luke has a sister, that he is able to push Luke into becoming unhinged on him. Someone that he truly cares for being threatened is what finally gets the appropriate reaction.

That's the thing, Palpatine would know that Vader hesitated. Palpatine sent him into the Temple to kill everyone. Including the children. A Sith Lord would not hesitate to kill a child. Palpatine himself would kill a hundred children if necessary. We know that it is important for this scene to happen as it ties into Obi-wan's decisions.

OBI-WAN: "To protect you both from the Emperor, you were hidden from your father when you were born. The Emperor knew, as did I, that if Anakin were to have any offspring, they would be a threat to him."

Which is why the Skywalker children were hidden.

 

Exactly. Vader's killing the Younglings makes it clear that he would hunt down and kill his own child if the Emperor told him to.

 

Very true,Palpatine would've sensed hesitation within Vader at that point.

 

Thanks to all for this great discussion I actually feel like i get Anakins fall (and it's relationship to Luke's non-fall) much better.

I still feel though that this wasn't portrayed on screen as well as it could have been and that somehow if the Lava scene came first and THEN the attack on the temple (which story wise would present some problems) it would have been more dramatic OR if somehow the scene of him bowing to the Emperor had been stronger in showing him go evil.

Still loved episode III though

 

That's cool. I'm glad you got something out of the discussion, which is what these forums are good for.

I will suggest, though, that it's possible we're all conditioned to one degree or another to think of "evil" as something that looks, acts, feels a certain way. When Anakin bows before Sidious and takes the name of Vader, it may not be as "strong" as we might expect because we've seen other films, read books or news article that portray "evil" in a more operatic or stark or polarized light. Anakin's voice and face don't change, he doesn't become histrionic or "Darth Vader-y" all at once. He looks and sounds rather pathetic, really: almost cringing in his supplication to Palpatine. Maybe we'd like it to be more dramatic, more powerful. Maybe we'd like him to be in control.

What the film shows instead, I think, is something closer to the truth. Evil derives from selfish concerns. Anakin can't live without Padme, or believes he cannot. He's weak, insecure, lonely, fearful. His choice to follow the dark path derives from that weakness, that selfishness, and that fear. He's capable of despicable acts only to get what he wants: immortality for his wife and, one imagines, for himself. So the turn isn't operatic. It's pathetic. And that makes it, IMO, all the more human.

 

I've heard the earlier drafts of Revenge of the Sith deal with Anakin seeking greater power and not over fear that Padme will die. The decision of the Jedi Council to send Obi-Wan alone to fight and kill General Grievous is the catalyst for him to join the dark side.

 

People who said that are kind of right though. Anakin's turn was a little bit rushed but that was because they didn't enough time to do it. If they didn't make the prequels a trilogy, I think they could've done it better.

 

Or he could attack the temple, kill the adults, take the children hostage, and at the end, once he is into the suit and Padme is dead, Palpatine takes him to where the children are being held, hands him his lightsaber, and tells him "time to end what you started".