PT "Anakin became evil too quickly"

I think it would have been better, because it is generally considered to be significantly more immoral to kill children than it is to kill adults or teenagers. If we had a similar scene wherein the group of Jedi were adults, or even teenagers, who looked up to Anakin as one of the most powerful in the order, we would have had the same effect -- Anakin's compliance to Sidious's mandate to exectue Order 66 -- without the moral dilemma of killing children.

I do appreciate your different direction on the younglings issue. However, most movie viewers would not assume this perspective. As a result, the younglings scene needlessly harms the movie a little, whereas a different scene would have avoided this issue entirely.

Just wondering, what are your thoughts on the whole Tusken children issue? I'm surprised how many fans forget this even though it establishes the slippery slope, a precedent, for this incident.

 

The Tusken incident does set a precedent but it's not a like for like comparison. On Tattooine Anakin was literally psychotic with rage, he was killing everyone and anyone who came within reach and using the Force against those who were out of lightsaber range. Some of the dead happened to be children but he didn't draw any distinction at the time, he was on autopilot (metaphorically.) In the temple he was totally in control and aware that these were children, the children were a deliberate target but he happened to kill any adults who got in the way.

 

Good point indeed jakobitis89. I will concede that the two incidents are not directly alike. Nevertheless, I still maintain that killing Tusken children on autopilot would still make it easier for one to choose to kill Jedi children.

 

It's enough to show that Anakin is certainly capable of killing children, under certain circumstances. But there is a difference between a rage-fuelled rampage and calculated murder, deliberately so of course. The second is clearly supposed to be seen as 'worse' than the first, though perhaps it's success is debatable.

 

i think it's pretty successful.

 

I suspect what many are saying that Anakin's turn seemed to come out of the blue . . . plot wise in Revenge of the Sith. However, I've never agreed with this complaint. I thought Anakin's reluctance to leave his mother behind and his disastrous first meeting with the Jedi Council in The Phantom Menace foreshadowed his emotional attachment to Padme and his shaky relationship with the Council in the future. His growing arrogance, emotional frustrations with Obi-Wan, his slaughter of the Tuskens and his attachment to Padme in Attack of the Clones foreshadowed his downfall even further. And in Revenge of the Sith . . . well, everything goes to hell for him. So . . . no, I don't think his downfall happened too quickly. I think Lucas paced it rather well.

 

Right from the start, Lucas was setting up Anakin's turn to be a hard right.

"I have what I call two sharp "right turns" in the movie and they are very hard to deal with. For the audience, it's a real jerk, because you're going along and then somebody yanks you in a different direction. Anakin turning to the dark side and killing Mace is a very hard right, because we're dealing with things that aren't so obvious. The audience knows Anakin is going to turn to the dark side, but the things that he's struggling with are so subtle that it may be hard for people to understand why his obsession to hold onto Padme is so strong.

Showing how much Anakin and Padme care for each other is one of my weak points. Expressing that is hard to do. It's really hard in the end to express the idea, I'm so in love with you that I would do anything to save you; I'd give up everything -friends, my whole life- for you, and make that real-make that stick-and say it in two minutes. When I created it I knew I wanted two hard right turns-it's designed to be that way-and I knew I was taking a real chance that it wasn't going to work. But you have to see if you can make it work. If it doesn't work, well then I'm going to get skewered for it. But if I can make it work, it'll be neat. It'll be good."

--George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith.

It goes further with the actual moment itself.

"You almost come a second too late. You're rushing over to make sure that nothing happens-but your anticipation is that they're going to hurt each other. When the lightning starts things are going from bad to worse from your point of view. And when Mace is going to kill him, you have to act.

Try and increase how uncomfortable you feel as the shot goes on. Try to think back on the Darth Plagueis story-run that through your head. Take it one step further: you realize that by telling the Jedi about Palpatine being a Sith that Padme is going to die. Basically, you just killed her."

--George Lucas To Hayden Christensen, The Making Of ROTS.

"Okay, well this sequence always started out with Mace uh overpowering Palpatine and then Palpatine using his powers to try to destroy Mace and Mace deflecting his rays with his Lightsaber. It always was that Anakin cut the Lightsaber out of his hand. But this part where he pretends to lose his power and be weak was something that I added later cause this is it moved the point where Anakin turns down to this moment right here and you can see that he’s now that its very clear that he’s, he wants him to go on trial so he can pump him for information about how to get these powers."

--George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.

"He didn't realize Palpatine was going to kill him (Mace). So up to that point he was trying to do the right thing but now he's realizing that with Mace dead, he’s crossed over the line and he sorta succumbs and says yes, I’ll do anything you ask so you can allow me to keep my wife alive."

--George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.

This is why Anakin chooses to give himself to Palpatine. He's crossed the line. He helped Palpatine to kill Mace Windu, a Jedi Master. There's no turning back from this. There's no way the Jedi will forgive him for what he's done. He just wanted to stop the fight so that he could get what he wanted and now, he's made a commitment to Palpatine. It winds up being reflected in "Ghosts Of Mortis", when Anakin turns in order to stop his future from happening, even though he was willing to fight and kill the Son a moment earlier Anakin turns because he is weak emotionally and in his mind, weak in the Force. He cares more about what affects him than what is right and wrong. Here, though, Anakin chooses Palpatine because he has no choice. Going into the Temple was important because it showed his commitment to the dark side. He starts to become evil in the Temple and has gone over by the time he reaches Mustafar.

Hence he goes from this with the Younglings...



...to looking like this with the Separatist Council.

 

But then, Anakin would still have initiated a chain of events in which children would have been killed -- by catching the Jedi "off balance" and storming the temple with clones.

So, what you're advocating, while I can understand your point, is something of a cop-out. Anakin chose to commit genocide. The children were going to suffer and be killed the moment he committed to that choice.

But what's more disturbing about the prequel plotline is that, in a manner of speaking, the clones themselves are children: children genetically engineered to be docile, rapidly accelerated to maturity, denied the right to self-determination and raised only for combat. Born to die.

And led on the battle field by the Jedi.

You could make a similar case for the Jedi themselves.

It's an extremely creepy storyline.

The Jedi's actions merely catch back up with them: "After Saturday comes Sunday" goes an Arabic proverb.

I don't think it harms the movie. It is the sad, tragic conclusion to what has been building since TPM; and karma for the Jedi assuming control of the clones in AOTC.

Ugly? Yes. But this trilogy is meant to serve as a warning for our present age (and all previous ages of human history) and a paean for a better world tomorrow.

It isn't in anyone's best interests to keep up this cycle of violence and oppression forever. Consciousness must be expanded and new ways must be found to build a just global society.

Well, AOTC never actually shows him killing children, and if you look at his confession from Padme's POV, then you can say that Anakin is mortally confused: a being in pain. She likely assumes that he must be mistaken; or that he lashed out so severely it was like he had committed a series of accidental killings -- like a powerful grenade going off.

For her own self-serving reasons, Padme is either able to forgive Anakin or simply doesn't believe he did what he claims to have done. In this regard, Padme only learns the "terrible truth" about Anakin on Mustafar -- when all the damage has been done.

Yes, there is a precedent, of sorts. But Anakin takes a much greater stride to the Dark Side in ROTS. However, his soul was tarnished by what he did on Tatooine in AOTC, and so ROTS still manages to validate Yoda's dogma; well, from a certain POV: "The boy you trained, gone he is. Consumed by Darth Vader."

Escaping the pull of the Dark Side is quite vividly suggested to be no mean thing. And since the Jedi do not seem to have an adequate psychology of mind, they are unable to minister to Anakin and pull him clear of his deepest fears, his worst excesses.

The "taint" of what Anakin does in AOTC just takes a while to catch up with him. In a moralistic sense. Symbolically, he is condemned; particularly as deceptions are maintained in ROTS*. If they hadn't have been, maybe it would have been a different story.


*There is a symbolic framework that speaks to "covering" things up in SW. From Luke slipping on a black glove after suffering damage to his robotic hand in ROTJ, to Threepio timidly suggesting to Anakin that he would prefer to be a little more "completed" in TPM. AOTC is almost one long narrative of stealth and deception. Concealment is a huge motif in the series. And the story tends to follow through on the consequences.

 

I definitely agree with this. In the first half of ROTS, Anakin seems like a different person. However, this turns out to be a facade as he only appears different because everything was going well for him. He was married to the woman he loved, and he was garnering a reputation as one of the most powerful knights of the order.

When you reintroduced turmoil, Anakin ended up making the same decision as in the Tusken camp; he abandoned the Jedi ideals he had sworn to uphold in order to follow his own feelings.

 

Yes, there is a big change in Anakin from AotC's to beginning of RotS. In AotC's he is ambitious, yearning, with youthful/teenage resentment/rebellion. Anakin at the start of RotS seems weary, conflicted.

 

Does Anakin Skywalker turn to the Dark Side too quickly? I figure that’s anyone’s call, depending on their own preferences. Does Anakin Skywalker turn to the Dark Side quickly, period? Yes. And...

...why not?

This is the one criticism I've always found the most peculiar. To those who argue that the character arc into evil was too short or truncated, I'm not entirely sure I understand the alternative. Over the course of three movies, up to the turning point in question, a thematic pipework is laid illustrating Anakin's troubled psyche, on which I think we can all agree, well enough anyways. In the broadest terms, the storyline covers maternal straits, romantic yearnings and an overall youthful angst buried under extreme circumstantial pressure i.e., the rules and increasingly suspect measures of the Jedi Council. These factors indicate not so much a rising evil as they do a stretching rubber band of human weakness and vulnerability. To specify, every narrative step from little Ani leaving home to adult Anakin intervening the arrest (ahem, execution) of Palpatine should not be interpreted as the building blocks of evil. That would be a mistake, in my opinion. There are no building blocks of evil. There’s simple cause and effect for everything, sure, but especially in terms of storytelling, evil itself should not be construed as some in-world design. Evil is not a structure, but a collapse. A freefall.

Let's really stop and think on this for a moment; stand back for real life common sense of clarity. Nobody transforms into evil methodically. Method by nature is procedural, logical. If becoming evil was logical it would likewise be identifiable, and therefore equally avoidable. Even the slaughtering of Tusken Raiders and the beheading of Dooku should be seen first as failures of moral conduct and self-control, as they are obviously recognized by Anakin himself. History is replete with descent men succumbing to terrible deeds during war and amidst the edges of civilization-into-savagery, but men who are not then by definition outright evil. Midway through Revenge of the Sith Anakin has grown severely distraught by a great many things. And while his path towards the Dark Side has certainly been, in part, schemed by Palpatine, his actual metamorphosis could only succeed, not as some play-by-play thesis, but as an unexpected singular event of extreme proportions.

Because, frankly, all too often that is how it actually happens: a situation turns on a dime from bad to worse, something heinous occurs by accident or sheer impulse (or a mix of both) and that rubber band snaps as a result. It is that very shock of the event that can instantly trigger a near total acquiescence to abjection. Think of it almost like a survival mechanism or the way of maintaining some semblance of a functioning sanity. It’s a rudimentary switch deep within the psyche that’s flipped in order to relieve one the horror of what they’ve just done, and in turn all the things they would never before do but can now carry out in a similar state of denial. It is an immediate point of no return. The murdering of Mace Windu is too traumatic an event for Anakin. He cannot deal with it fully, coherently, responsibly. So, simply put, he doesn’t. Instead, he gives himself over completely to the rationalization of the Dark Side. Why? Because such is the only other option in ready view, the only exit, if not served up on a silver platter by Palpatine, instinctively and subconsciously within in reach. Of course he’s not going to judge the situation as we do, as manipulated by Palpatine—Palpatine for his true colors. Anakin is not judging anything at this juncture; those faculties are spent. No, Anakin is freefalling, and there’s only one other man there to catch him.

Add to this the central fantasy conceit of Star Wars that is the Force. It’s almost as if critics and naysayers wholly forget about this aspect. The themes that loom over Anakin like a dark cloud are academically merited and reality based. The subsequent acts of this downward spiral, however, should be viewed within the context of a Star Wars movie.

"How can he go from impulsively striking Windu to the premeditated murder of cherubic padawan younglings? I don’t buy it. It’s just not realistic."

Hell, I dunno. How does ANY Jedi Knight in this storybook galaxy far, far away go from a capricious act of violence to conscious acts of ruthless genocide? I mean, seriously, what are we talking about here? Show me the proper objective yardstick for metering what is inherently a make-believe premise. Why does Frodo sicken into bug-eyed malevolence just by carrying around a ring? Probably because it’s a magic ring of friggin' evil! These are myths and fairytales, where magic serves to exaggerate for metaphorical emphasis. The Dark Side of the Force dramatizes real-world universal wisdoms of pain and vice to a cosmic stage. I for one did not go into Revenge of the Sith saying, "Okay, movie, convince me of this or that."

Such is the wrong mindset. Too literal. This isn’t contemporary method drama where paramount is a more clinical depiction of human behavior, but classical melodrama -- (space) opera -- where story ideas are expressed in broad theatrical gestures and grand musical movements. I can intellectually grasp the themes of Anakin’s tragedy, but my emotional investment is in the form/aesthetics of the piece. It’s not so much that I’m "convinced" of his turn to the Dark Side but rather am affected by the chosen artifice of its presentation, as I would be a painting or symphony. It truly is a kind of pop-gesamtkunstwerk in that respect.

If I’m drowning out my argument in overly abstract nonsense here, let me simplify with something a little more concrete. Anakin Skywalker’s turn to the Dark Side is no less incremental than Darth Vader’s (re)turn to the Light Side. It’s not as if the OT needles Vader from the get-go with some systematic about-face. Only in the final scenes of The Empire Strikes Back do we even begin to detect in the character faint visages of what might be an ulterior motive to the Emperor’s bidding while the first signs of some genuine internal struggle aren’t revealed until his verbal confrontation with Luke below the landing platform in Return of the Jedi. By trilogy's climax, only minutes before choosing against evil, is he is still hunting Luke with sinister intent, goading the latter by threatening the sanctity of Leia. That moment where he turns on the Emperor Frankenstein-style is just as much an impulsive breaking point that in its immediate wake, proportionate to younger Anakin stumbling to his knees and pledging obedience to the Sith, flips the same switch (or shuts down forever the inner turmoil), releasing Vader from himself back to a lucid state of compassion. I think it hardly chance that these two scenes from Episode III and VI are so mechanically mirrored.

And yet I never hear anyone criticize the end of Return of the Jedi for concluding the character with salvation in such a cursory manner or with such short-shrift narrative. So what gives? I can't help but reckon that the movie culture zeitgeist had long since changed from 1983 and that even big blockbuster escapism had expanded its sophistication beyond the kind of pulp-wonder-tale modus operandi that is Lucas' Star Wars; that chafed audiences were the type who, having gotten older, just no longer accepted the kind of storytelling they did so innocently in their youth. Now days it seems not even fantasy genre fiction detailing, say, tragic heroes is free from the demands of explicated causation and method performance minutiae coupled with sustained sentimentalism, as opposed to Lucas' comic-strip brevity and starchy formalism in aesthetics. The criticism in question may still stand on its own from this certain adult perspective, but should then be aimed squarely at both trilogies. At the very least, you can't accuse Lucas of being inconsistent.

In basic terms, I think Anakin's fall to the Dark Side works just fine. It's big, it's hammed-up, it's megaphoned. Especially by the second half of Revenge of the Sith, it accumulates powerful musical-editorial momentum. All the actors involved -- Christensen, McDiarmid, McGregor and Portman -- go for broke with heavy emotions. I think Lucas told his prequel story at certain distances and with varying degrees of ellipsis ...up until midway through the third entry, where he then shot the whole damn thing out of a cannon. I dig that kind of gusto showmanship.

 

Very well and eloquently stated, Ingram_1. I love this kind of thoughtful analysis.

 

A solid argument, and well enough made... however I would argue that the bombastic, theatrical megaphoned turn whilst well executed represents something of a change of tone and style compared to the groundwork already laid. The seeds had been sown but suddenly they went from striplings to sequoias overnight, metaphorically. Anakin was clearly distraught over his actions in the Tusken camp (not that it makes it okay), he takes another step by executing Dooku when he has him at his mercy - egged on by Palpatine and he manages to justify it to himself... another step down the dark side path. Later he hacks off Mace's hand in a moment of panic/rage and is complicit in his death and is clearly shocked but if it means Padme lives... then so be it. He's now at the stage where his turn to the Sith has been slow but steady as he compromises more and more.

But then... he marches into the temple and kills children in cold blood and with no remorse or reluctance. This is a pretty big jump from committing dark side actions that he struggles with but successfully justifies with the greater good of saving Padme - this is purely to serve Palpatine's more blatantly evil agenda. The kids being alive or dead won't directly affect Padme's life or death any time soon. And then, shortly after this he throttles his own wife and the mother-to-be of his child with the force - the same woman whose life he intended to save. And he seems pretty angry with her and not overly concerned whether she lives or dies. His oldest friend turns up and is not exactly thrilled by this turn of events... Anakin doesn't even bother trying to justify himself in any way, he's intending to create an empire, all Jedi have suddenly turned from jerks at worst to outright evil (for no apparent reason), including said friend who he apparently now hates with a fiery passion and attempts to murder, making a pretty decent go of the attempt besides.

He was slowly creeping towards the Dark Side pretty convincingly... the turn was gradual but clear, good work from all involved. Then we end up in the last act of the film and he all but grows a curly mustache and cackles menacingly as he does evil things evilly, because he's evil now. If he'd decided to strap Padme to a train track and gloat it wouldn't have been out of his brand new character... or so it feels to me.

I would have preferred him to be portrayed as genuinely believing he was serving some greater good and trying to convince Padme and Obi-Wan of this rather than the simplistic: ''Might makes right, I'm more powerful than you... now I kill you, bwahaha.'' Padme's death should have been what strips away the last of his humanity rather than being a sign said humanity has already gone. Then Luke's life and love would have been a call back to that prior last chance at redemption rather than a sudden, heroic but frankly rather baffling display of last minute altruism.

Holy **** that was longer than planned. Sorry!

 

Lukes story was faster than Anakins.

 

Anakin's fall started in The Phantom Menace,
-----


..........when?

 

Brilliant post my friend.

 

But after he slaughters the Separatist he is seen crying again




I dont think he is full evil mode yet.
And even later after he got his Sith Eyes he is still sad



I wonder if there was ever a Sith who looked like that.

 

Really? So it's all about judicial oversight...rather than the morally repugnant choices that Anakin makes? Obi-Wan and Yoda enter their own 'hell' because, despite their having seen Anakin kill children they are required to have that corroborated by a court of law? That 'hell' is in some way equivalent to coldly cutting down children? Obi-Wan is not meant to do Anakin harm (or as you put it commit an atrocity against him) despite that Anakin is trying to kill him, has tried to kill his own wife and, as Obi-Wan says, he has seen him cut down those children.

Sorry, but these scenes aren't about the respect for judicial oversight. You know that many people are and have been killed by supposedly 'enlightened' court systems? What sort of justice are we shown on-going at this time that the Jedi should be aspiring to protect?

 

He's a lot further into evil than he was when he went into the Temple.

He's not sad, he's angry and in pain. When he's crying after the slaughter, it's because there is part of him that is saying, "What have I done?" while in the above pic, he just got sliced up by his supposed best friend.

 

The dude just got his limbs sliced off and his torso set alight. And the one responsible pretty much delivered a silent but pretty crushing '**** you' by just turning and walking away. I think looking kind of cut up (excuse the awful pun) is a pretty natural reaction - more than feeling mopey and sad about bad choices you made some time prior.

 

Thirteen years is too quickly. LOL.

 

The picture is taken after Obi spoke "You were suppose to destroy the Sith not join them".
I think he is sad there for everything that happened.




But after that short moment he goes angry again

 

Is he sad because he realises that his own hubris and pride lead him to bad decisions that caused this situation? Or just sad because oh ****, he's been dismembered and left to die? Anakin's pride and inability/refusal to acknowledge his own flaws went well back before his turn after all.

 

Brilliant post. You echoed my thoughts exactly. If, over the course of the trilogy could at least see Anakin's point of view (believing the Jedi are evil) we could empathize with him. But in what way does feeling remorse for having a hand in killing a master Jedi to unrepentantly slaughtering children allow us to feel for the guy?

 

All Sith look like that, on the inside. Not that they'd ever admit it.

They're all sad and afraid.