PT "Anakin became evil too quickly"

That's a good way of looking at that. I can't disagree with any sentence you laid out there. I definitely wish more people had said what you said about old Obi-Wan/Ben, Yoda, and Mace. A friend of mine mentioned that like ten years ago. That brings some more moral ambiguity to the saga outside of TESB. I guess we try to psychologize these characters, but if we look at them as sentient beings who could do something good, evil, or somewhere in between (as most things are), then that makes them more relatable to us in reality.

 

It's a 3 movie journey to the dark side.. Doesnt seem particularly quick to me. I think the problem was that for many the journey was too subtle most of the time, and too dramatic in the end. I dont feel that way, but that's the sense I get from some who do. I think the bigger thing that many didnt connect on was that Anakin's 'annoying' and/or 'awkward' qualities (the things that many ppl have been very vocal about despising) were a core part of that journey. If one failed to grasp that, then yes, it would seem a rather sudden transformation.

 

Yeah I've never once bought the whole "the turn was too quick" thing. It's utter bs when you've got 3 movies showing it.

 

Also remember, once he joined Sidious and committed evil the Dark Side consumed him. Think of it like a virus.

 

To me it's not to quick because ever since TPM the coucil has told anakin there is darkness in him. If you could put yourself in a 9 year old shoes and having these powerful Jedi examine you telling you there is evil in you. Throughout the PT they are constantly doubting and questioning anakin, especially yoda and mace.So when he finally gives in and cuts maces arm off the things going through his mind I couldn't imagine. It's like when you tell a kid there bad there going to be bad. Anakin just helped murder one of the most powerful Jedi and yodas right hand man he knew the Jedi would no longer accept him. A split second decision changed his destiny forever because it was ultimately his choice.

 

It has less to do with the 'speed' of his turn, and more to do with:

1. The fact that things like his actions against the Tuskens in AOTC isn't particularly implicated as part of his fall to the dark side.

2. the level of s-t-u-p-i-d required on Anakin's part in order for him to buy what Palpatine/Sidious was selling him.


The OT had said that Vader was seduced by the dark side of the force. In a million years, I had never imagined that it really meant that Vader - whether he was Luke's father or not, Skywalker or otherwise - had joined a magico-religious cult in the hopes of obtaining some magic beans from a guy who's been shown to be full of ****

 

???????????????????????

 

Example:

"I was RIGHT to kill those Tuskens!!!!!" - anger yes, but not tears of shame or regret.

which would lead to,

"I was RIGHT to kill Dooku!!!" - not, "I shouldn't have done that"


I think that only one kenobi is right in saying that Lucas stops short of having Anakin actually become Vader.

 

It's a huge part. The fear that ate at him drove him to that Tusken camp. Hatred for his mother's killers (and by association - a quite genocidal hatred of the entire camp) fueled his actions there.
The way things are portrayed in the films, including ROTJ, is that each time a Jedi gives into darker instincts associated with the darkside, each time it becomes harder to come back from. Whether you choose to buy this is up to you however, but it's reoccurring. Anakin's actions in AOTC make him more susceptible to his similar fears for Padme in the next film. Knowing he has had prophetic dreams since before he was a Jedi, he is going slowly mad thinking about his visions of Padme; just dreading, fearing, stressing are of the darkside themself, and drive him closer to it.

This is subjective. Of course, we as the audience know, Palpatine represents the devil and is the last person Anakin should listen to. However, the way his dialogue is written Sidious tells more point-of-view truths than outright lies, particularly from the position Anakin perceives from. It sounds stupid from a real-world perspective, but the fact is that more dark deeds leads to more power in the fantasy world of Star Wars. Anakin killing Jedi can, as far as we are shown, bring him to a level where he is more likely to be able to learn power over life and death. It also cements his loyalty to Sidious in Sidious's eyes, regardless of the possibility Vader is planning to overthrow him once he gets his power. It's just that Sidious doesn't actually have the power yet - a cop-out for us, but Anakin is desperate, he can't come back from killing Mace, and he is conveniently taking the coward's way out.
Sidious may have actually believed that together they would learn the power, regardless of what we know about his lack of any real concern for Padme's life.

I know where you are coming from, but in my interpretation it is still seduction nonetheless. Palpatine offered him the only solution (to Anakin's number one concern) out of anyone or anything in the films. He still appeals to Anakin's greed and lust for power as originally conceived. Anakin sells his soul.


2nd Edit:
(I'm gonna post this seperately)

 

He is still heartbroken about killing the Tuskens, much more so than Dooku. He breaks down remember? With Dooku it's just "I shouldnt have done that" then he's over it.

 

That's my point. If he's really becoming Vader, he should have justified both of those actions, and not try to disown them.

 

Eh?

Anakin seems pretty ashamed of his actions, despite his bravado, in the garage confession scene. If he truly felt vindicated and at peace with himself, I doubt he'd be crying, sink to the floor, or say outloud, "I'm a Jedi, I know I'm better than this."

The character shows a great deal of conflict in many of his actions, quite adeptly established early on in TPM, when he leaves his mother and then runs back to her, claiming he "just can't do it", and again when he comes up against the Jedi Council and they are aware that his thoughts dwell on his mother, getting him to admit that he misses his mother and is afraid of losing her.

Years later, Palpatine draws him in, at the moment of his reveal, by sympathetically noting that ever since he's known Anakin, Anakin has "been searching for a life greater than that of an ordinary Jedi: a life of significance, of conscience." A jab at the Jedi, for one thing, and a recognition that Anakin is conflicted, sweetened with a much broader framing of positivity: a sense of admiration and pity that Anakin has been striving and trying to go beyond himself (while the Jedi offer suspicion, disapproval, and condemnation).

 

But he does justify them. It's just that he is still conflicted and torn. He rationalizes the killing of the Tuskens, but still feels bad about it. Same with Dooku, only this time he feels less bad about it. We can assume he did the same after helping to kill Mace and what happens after that. The tears on Mustafar are meant to show us this. He's conflicted, but less and less so.

 

That was my point: if he was really becoming Vader, then he should have felt vindicated by those actions.

 

The problem, for me, with this analysis is the fact that not too long before that scene, he, Anakin, wanted to kill Sidious/Palpatine himself. Yes, circumstances had changed between that point and this scene, but if anything, those circumstances don't come anywhere near in exonerating Sidious/Palpatine...quite the contrary, as a matter of fact.

 

Sorry. Too many posts coming in at once all of a sudden.

I think he tastes some dark power in those moments and wants more. That's pretty Vader-ish, IMO.

But there are other things going on, too. Fear, guilt, shame. "Fear is the path to the Dark Side" is an idea I think Lucas wants the viewer to take seriously: fear at the root of everything. And we see, in that regard, Anakin being hugely motivated by fear in ROTS, from the nightmare scene onwards (or, indeed, before then, in fact: when Padme announces her pregnancy).

People forget that Anakin is the "Chosen One". Whether you take the religious overtones seriously or not, there is, at the least, loose empirical backing that Anakin is something special, with his high midi-chlorian count serving to strengthen Qui-Gon's interest, and being too good of a thing for the Jedi to pass up, despite Yoda's concerns. So whatever Anakin feels, he tends to feel quite strongly; and that can become something of a feedback loop, bulking up his power and presence in the Force. Hence Yoda predicting "grave danger" in Anakin's training. This cocktail of emotions -- with Anakin's extremely high count -- is meant to have dire implications; that such a person would find it hard not to be corrupted by their pre-existing attachments. Well, without proper guidance, anyway.

It's Vader by way of metaphysical corrosion. Here is Anakin: a delicate case. And maybe also a "Trojan Horse" created by the Sith for the purposes of utterly destroying the Jedi. A very delicious plotline, IMO. Ultimately, what is to remembered here, is...

Anakin is chasing power. He is also fearful and afraid of letting go. The former is meant to be a cover for the latter; creating many torrents in Anakin's soul. Then Palpatine appears and consoles Anakin with the tale of Darth Plagueis The Wise. In my opinion, you can feel a seduction taking place in that scene. The staging of it, the lighting, the music... everything. Plus the background of the two characters; the bond that's developed between them.

By the time of the Clone Wars, Anakin has become close to Palpatine; a little too close. And he just can't resist what Palpatine puts on the table. Moreover, Palpatine lends a sympathetic ear for Anakin's woes, backed by a paternal wisdom, tranquillity, and grace that Anakin is (implicitly) desperately longing for. Even if it unfolds along different lines, it is still -- as HevyDevy pointed out -- very much a seduction, in my view.

 

It's all still related to fear. A massacre out of passion (the Tuskens) and the coldblooded murder of someone you hate, thinking it is for the greater good (Dooku) both relate as elements at play when Anakin eventually turns. Simply, "passion" for Padme, "the greater good" in salvaging an Empire out of the conflict of the Clone Wars and impending Civil war, if he doesn't follow Sidious.

Also, Anakin doesn't fully regret killing Dooku is the thing. He hates him, and Palpatine (whom he doesn't associate as a force user who should know any different) basically gave him permission. His loyalty to the Jedi Order at this stage, and the conscience he is yet to subdue tell him something is not right about it, but at the end of the day, he is grateful Palpatine was the only one there.

Well, I put that mostly down to several things...
- Anakin's unluckily timed arrival and how it looks - something quite typical of a tragedy.
- Desperation and the heat of the moment choice - Palpatine+Padme vs Mace+The Jedi .
- Anakin seeing a Jedi Master he respected and looked up to using the same logic as a Sith ("He's too dangerous to be left alive!" is the same line Palpatine used about Dooku. And notice Anakin states "It's not the Jedi way." in both scenes - It's a role-reversal for Anakin and Mace comes out a hypocrite).
- Palpatine makes sure Anakin is the one to make it happen by disarming Mace, he is much more in tune with Anakin's state of mind than Mace is. There is no going back in Anakin's mind after this.
- Anakin, having used the darkside several times now, is much easier to coerce into making the selfish choice.

 

Yes. Perceptive. I can only agree.

"Well, if it works..."
"Life seems so much simpler when you're fixing things."

Rather understandably, yet absurdly, Anakin believes he is fixing the Republic and the galaxy when he becomes drunk on his own power; if not at the exact moment of committing slaughter (he cries out, after all, when executing the separatists).

This is the dark thing about the tale. Fear is denied by all the parties involved. Of the "good" guys, only Yoda shows or expresses some cognizance of fear's continued presence and destructive power in ROTS before the Sith hits the fan.

Good observation! And...

Funny that, ain't it? Seductions are at their most intense one-on-one. Not like Palpatine planned that or anything.

Excellent breakdown (of a "breakdown").

I bolded that particular observation because it's another corker! Yes. I'm not sure I had consciously looked at it that way before. I could see the mechanical imperative in Anakin being the one to "disarm"/dis-hand Mace, but you've just projected a very solid motivation on Palpatine's mentality and revealed another link in the chain by telling it from his POV. That's it, surely: Palpatine sees ahead that this action will cripple Anakin; cause his conscience to fold like a pack of cards. And lo and behold...

"What have I done?" are the next words out of Anakin's mouth.

Damn that Palpatine!

He knows about Anakin's crumbling conscience. Sees it clearly. Understands the boy's emotional toil.

The Jedi, perhaps morally confused as they already are, read only muddy confusion back into Anakin.

Yes. Terrific thoughts.

 

Likewise, it goes back to ROTJ where Luke feels conflict within Vader.

VADER: "Obi-wan once thought as you do. You don't know the power of the dark side, I must obey my Master."

LUKE: "I will not turn...you'll be forced to kill me."

VADER: "If that is your destiny."

LUKE; "Search your feelings, father. You can't do this. I feel the conflict within you. Let go of your hate."

VADER: "It is too late for me, son."



LUKE: "Your thoughts betray you, father. I feel the good in you...the conflict."

VADER: "There is no conflict."

LUKE: "You couldn't bring yourself to kill me before, and I don't believe you'll destroy me now."

Anakin Skywalker is a man who is conflicted because he is being pulled in many different directions and he doesn't know what he wants to do. In the PT, he knows that he is a good man, but he keeps doing bad things in order to protect those that he cares for. In ROTJ, he is a bad man who knows that he is evil and is beyond saving. He goes more and more over, but he holds back because there is someone to keep him from going. Once Padme is gone and because he hates Obi-wan now with a passion, there is nothing left for him to be that good man that he was. Not until Luke brings it back to the surface.

 

I guess what I'm saying is that those two actions by Anakin - the Tusken Slaughter and his execution of Dooku - should have had more 'weight' assigned to them* in terms of him actually becoming Vader, instead of being subordinated to the contrivance that is his bowing down and pledging himself to Sidious and to the dark side. More weight is mistakenly placed there, imho.

*not just by the story being told but by the character of Anakin himself

You can certainly call it a tragedy, but I will call it plot convenience. Anakin only had to see the dead bodies of the other Jedi lying around the office.

Anakin going from wanting to kill Palpatine/Sidious, to agreeing to kill virtually everyone else BUT Palpatine/Sidioius, for me, makes Mace's 'hypocrisy' look like small-potatoes.....


- Anakin, having used the darkside several times now, is much easier to coerce into making the selfish choice.[/quote]

Right....which should also lead to the further choice of trying to kill the bastard, not 'pledge' himself to him and his teachings.



edit to add:

You and Cryogenic are ascribing a level of omniscience to Palpatine that could only be the result of Lucas telling Palpatine what Anakin would do. Palpatine, as a character in-universe, cannot know for certain that Anakin would disarm Mace, or what he will do at all. The scene could have played-out any different number of ways.

1. Anakin needn't have dis-armed Mace. He could have merely blocked Mace's strike.

2. Mace needn't make such a dramatic arc opening himself up to Anakin's strike/block.

3. Anakin might have been minutes or seconds too let in getting to Palpatine's office, and Mace might have finished the job already.

 

They do. They're why he says to Padme that he's not the Jedi he thought he was supposed to be. He realizes that he's not right and that there is something wrong with him, but he doesn't understand why he feels this way. The weight of the Tusken Slaughter is the result of his failure to save his mother and it is why he vows to stop people that he cares for from dying. It is why he is so upset when Padme falls out of the gunship, why he is willing to save Obi-wan when Palpatine wants him to be left behind and why he wants to learn how to stop people from dying when he sees Padme's death.

Lucas focused more on the reason why he wants to the learn the ways of the Sith, more than pontificating on his killing out of revenge.

It meant that Palpatine was attacked and was able to fend off three of his attackers, but cannot defeat Mace. Anakin knows that the other Jedi Masters are dead, as he cannot sense them in the Force anymore.

Except that Anakin is a selfish and desperate man right now. One who is driven by fear and greed. Fear is the path to the dark side and attachment to people, places and states of being leads to jealousy, which is centered in the shadow of greed. He wants to save Padme and he will take any chance, any offer that sounds good to him. Anakin believes that the Force is the answer and there are only two men who can help him. One refuses, the other is offering him what he wants.

It isn't about omniscience. It's psychology 101. Palpatine knows how to manipulate the Jedi and Anakin in particular. The whole point was to force Anakin to choose and force Mace to react the way he wants him to. What was necessary was for Mace to go from arresting to killing him, the rest would play out on its own.

 

Exactly. We got three books, several novels, and a TV series showing it. Anakin/Vader was a big deal in Star Wars and he always will be for this and many reasons.

 

I'll set aside for a moment the fact that the OT version of Vader doesn't share this conceit with the PT version. This vow is completely undercut by Padme's death at the end of ROTS, which in turn undercuts any reason for staying with the Emperor for 20 years afterwards.

"Psychology 101" still doesn't mean that the fight would necessarily go the way Palpatine wants it to go. "Forcing" Anakin to choose could still mean Anakin lets Mace kill Palpatine, and "forcing" Mace to react the way he "wants" might still mean that Mace kills Palpatine.

Palpatine: "oops"

 

Btw, thanks for the response Cryogenic. Don't know what to add.

Fair enough.
Firstly, I think the Tusken slaughter was given a lot of weight personally.
It is years before Anakin actually pledges, and is done quite dramatically. The scene where Anakin finds and loses Shmi is one of the most emotionally powerful moments in the current saga, I think. I'm not a huge fan of AOTC, but they nailed that whole Tattooine plot thread IMO.
The dreams mentioned in an earlier scene leading Anakin to disobey his Jedi orders to stay on Naboo, and Padme going with him. The mystery/uncertainty as we gradually come to the Lars homestead, and learn Shmi's kidnapping is why Anakin has been dreaming of her. (Off-topic, these scenes also add some much needed shared experience between Anakin and Padme such as Padme's reaction to the news Shmi is missing, and their embrace before Anakin sets out to search for Shmi). Sunset as Anakin is searching on the speeder-bike, which symbolically brings night by the time he reaches the camp. Anakin looking quite dark as he descends on the Tusken settlement. The dogs fighting. Anakin easily sensing which hut Shmi is in. The lighting from the fire inside the hut is quite intentional, orange and fire being consistently used at important times in the films (such as Vader's immolation, Anakin's and Qui-Gon's cremations, and the Naboo fireplace scene). The unstated implication of what has been happening to Shmi, which you can gather just by looking at her. The acting here is quite real, Hayden sells his anguish and shock at losing her. Some may find it contrived, but I think it is tragic that Shmi has been holding on just long enough to see Anakin again, and die in his arms. I still get chills from the music here, the build up to Anakin's violent reaction. While you can sympathise with Anakin entirely, you still feel shock for the Tusken children who react to Anakin bursting from the hut and igniting his saber. Qui-Gon's "Anakin, no!" is the only time we hear his voice after his death in TPM, a kind of anti-thesis to Obi-Wan's ghost talking to Luke in the OT.
You may not see it, but I think there is a direct and intentional change in Anakin's character from this point on. It is debatable, but their are signs there. Some potential examples...
- His silence as everyone looks on, as he brings Shmi's body back to the homestead. This is the first time I think we have seen him look so serious.
- The confession to Padme, while it could have been written better, shows how serious his actions were (also to him), wiping out an entire village in his uncontrolled rage. The Jedi restrictions on him preventing him from getting there sooner will of course come into play later. Maybe I'm stating the obvious, but here is the real beginning of his desire for ultimate power, to be the best Jedi, and a desire for the power to save his loved ones which will devolve into desire for power, period (of course, the inverse of ROTJ's character arc). His hatred and anger at the Tuskens is also of course significant; while he feels he has failed, he doesn't actually seem to say they didn't all deserve it. He breaks down and Padme consoles him "To be angry is to be human." - advice a Jedi can't necessarily use. "I'm a Jedi, I know I'm better than this." is an odd mix of both arrogant pride that a Jedi must be better than human, and a sign he has learnt something from his mistake.
- When Mace tells Anakin to stay on Tattooine he wants to obey - "You heard Master Windu, he gave me strict orders to stay here." - a sign that he is reeling from his failure and wants to better himself. Padme however encourages him with a loophole that allows them to go to Geonosis to help Obi-Wan.
- When Anakin and Padme are captured after the droid-factory sequence, we get Padme's confession that she loves him, and Anakin is actually being quite responsible in reminding her that they cannot get involved. But they think they are going to die (IMO a metaphor that eventually, well, they are), and they give in. The romance in the film has a lot of flaws, but I actually like this moment as they are brought out into the arena to be "executed". Depressing.


I can partially agree with you on Dooku's death however, it is done more subtley than I expected before seeing the film. I could see how it would have possibly worked better if this marked Anakin's actual turn as it apparently was in earlier versions of the script. The way it ended up in the final cut it is IMO more an omen that Anakin is marking himself to be doomed at a later stage (symbolised by the use of both his own and Dooku's actual Sith saber to decapitate him). Anakin's betrayal of the Jedi Order is then fittingly moved to the murder of a Jedi Master (who, trivially, was also attempting to decapitate a Sith... much like Luke's experience with the Vader apparition in the Dagobah cave. Subliminal messaging.)
Besides the eery music and Palpatine's quite unsettling "reassurance" that Anakin has done the right thing, you could be mistaken that it doesn't change anything, like you suggest. But something is off, even if not spelled out to us, and I still think the implication is that Anakin is moving closer to a point where he will eventually not be able to stop.


On the "pledge" concept - it works for me that there is a kind of ritual involved with Anakin's fall. I personally like the idea of the shock of a quite sudden "right-turn". Palpatine's voice and appearance change, the fitting music, the fact that they are now the only two people in the room by their own actions, the fact that it has transitioned to night, Palpatine's creepy breathing, Anakin's gaze being drawn to Palpatine's eyes as he lures Anakin, and Palpatine's pause as he searches the force for Anakin's new name ("Darth... Vader."). It gives me the impression that there is a force at work that we are not visibly aware of. I dunno, I just think it is well done.

IMO Palpatine foresaw more than you give him credit for. If he can predict as much as he appears to in ROTJ, then it is not that far-fetched that he suspects Anakin won't be brought to the office with Mace and the other Jedi Masters, and will arrive later. He knows Anakin, and knows he can't stay away. Just the way I read it.
I think a big part of the problem is that Anakin's true state of mind wasn't portrayed that effectively in the final film. I do think he would still be likely to possibly turn if he saw the other Jedi Masters die, but it would have taken more from Palpatine in that situation. Convenient, maybe, but the first thing he sees on arrival is Mace's saber at Palpatine's throat and Mace acting quite arrogant and overconfident, to say the least. He gets there too late to stop Mace or Palpatine in his mind. When the lightning starts, things are spiralling, the use of thunder in the background is quite symbolic of (perhaps) a shift in the force with these three powerful individuals' actions. I think the buildup over the course of the movie could have been done better, but it's there. Anakin is under a lot of pressure, and Palpatine offers him quick release, as horrible as the price will be.

Point conceded. I've explained my stance.

Anakin and Palpatine are using each other. He may hate Palpatine deep down, but he doesn't see himself as a Jedi now, either.

Which would instantly lead to further conflict involving the three, and Palpatine can adapt.

Lol yeah. But he wanted specifically to decapitate him, which ties the movies together symbolically IMO. It's just a dramatic thing as well, the build up to that moment with the music and dialogue, it makes it more intense.

I have to agree to disagree on this point. Palpatine understands Anakin far more than the Jedi IMO. It isn't a proven fact, but for me I read it as Palpatine only starting the lightning because Anakin is there. Mace was still going to arrest him until he does this, Palpatine is purposely tempting Mace to act. If Anakin was late (and us knowing Palpatine can sense when he is near), he would pretend to go quietly I think.

 

I agree with this point. The dark side seems to have an anesthetizing effect (in the sense of "deprive of feeling or awareness") at times. It certainly distorts a person's vision and perceptions, which is explicated in the shot of the mask going down with the red eyes at the end of RotS.