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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

PT "Anakin became evil too quickly"

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by enigmaticjedi, May 24, 2015.

  1. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    I like this analogy. While I wouldn't go as far as to say Palpatine controls Vader, the darkside hold Sidious has over Vader had been established long before the PT was made. I completely agree about the pledge and Vader's initiation in Rots, there is something supernatural going on there. Vader's actions that follow of course strengthen this link, and the more dark deeds Vader does, the harder it is to go back. On hearing he himself killed Padme (a pov truth), Vader's link to his old self is finally severed and he is not "awoken" until the end of Rotj. This is not exclusive to the prequels, and helps explain why it takes so much to bring Anakin back.
     
    lbr789 and darth ladnar like this.
  2. Samnz

    Samnz Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012

    I especially agree with these too posts, but basically with all those who say that Anakin's turn is a bit more than one-dimensional. It's quite obvious that Anakin's journey to the dark side has both an emtional side and an "intellectual" side, but Lucas has always focused on the emotional side. In Episode I, the focus was clearly on Anakin leaving his mother and what that means to him emotionally instead of an intellectual discussion on why the Jedi didn't try to abolish slavery on Tatooine. In Episode II, there's not as much focus on Anakin longing for a "wise leader" as there is a focus on Anakin losing his mother and the promise that he makes ("I promise you. I won't fail again.") as a result. It's the same kind of thing in Episode III: Anakin does have an intellectual conflict, which revolves around the moral superiority or inferiority of the Sith and the Jedi and what's ultimately more benificial for the galaxy and order. But it's much less emphasized than Anakin's personal and emotional determination to save Padmé at all costs. Teh three movies are quite similar here.

    On another note, I believe people tend to mix up the actual turn to the dark side and Anakin's eventual and complete transformation into Darth Vader. A turn, in part by the very definition of it, has to occur quite rapidly since it's basically just switching sides. That's also in line with the OT ("Strike me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!"), which implies that Luke would have turned immediately once he had striken down the Emperor (which was only made impossible by Vader's interference, btw). You can't stay "neutral" for long, that's quite obvious.

    But Anakin's transformation doesn't stop and wasn't already completed when he kneeled down before Sidious. Up until that point, it was quite obvious that Anakin's primary issue was Padmé's life, but there were nonetheless hints about him questioning the Jedi as a whole - never more obvious than when Mace was echoing Palpatine's words in regard to
    what appears to become an arbitrary execution, which made them appear more alike than they probably are.

    So Anakin had to make decisions: The Jedi were incapable of bringing an end to corruption in the Senate and war in the galaxy for decades and they were also willing to commit morally questionable acts, especially by liquidating elected officials without a proper judicial procedure. Palpatine, on the other hand, has proven to be capable of controlling lots of people without difficulty, so he might be more capable to bring order to the galaxy althoug he probably wouldn't make the galaxy a much better place. However, Anakin was apparently planning to take out Palpatine after learning to power to cheat death anyway and Palpatine was still offering that very power to save Padmé.

    So Anakin went with Palpatine. Instantly killing the other Jedi and other political opponents was a necessary evil from Anakin's POV, because the whole thing wouldn't work otherwise and they would have died anyway, since the Clones could have done that job quite fine on their own. What happend, though, and that was 100% intentional by Palpatine, was the dark side "consuming" Anakin ("The boy you trained, gone he is. Consumed, by Darth Vader."). Anakin's dark deeds, the murders, the evil started to change Anakin even further. Much like weather has a effect on our well-being, the dark side has an effect on people in the Star Wars galaxy, which was also established in the OT: “Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will...”.

    Consequently, another tragic aspect about Anakin's transformation into Darth Vader and turn to the dark side is the fact that his primary intention gets more and more suppressed and deplaced by the dark side itself. While Anakin's intentions were never truly good (since he was more concerned with keeping Padmé with him than keeping her alive for the sake of it), they were rubbed almost meaningless by the dark side or - as Lucas puts it - have "become a minor issue" ("The thing that breaks Padmé's heart in the end is the fact that Anakin says to her, 'Come and join me. I have all the power now. I can rule the universe and you can do it with me.' So the idea of saving her life has become a minor issue.").

    Using the dark side and delving into it emotionally certainly contributed to erase or rather bury the good that was still in Anakin after the turn scene itself and Anakin's tranformation was only complete - much like darth ladnar has already explained - when he was put into the suite and learned of his failure. The dark side having an effect on people and cosuming them has been established every since TESB, at least, and has to be taken into account in regard to Anakin's transformation.
     
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  3. Tosche_Station

    Tosche_Station Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Feb 9, 2015
    But...if he is in such a state as you describe, post-Mustafar, how can he ever entertain the notion that he would ever be in a position to to kill Palpatine? What I'm saying is, it would make more sense for Vader, at this point, to commit suicide, rather than continue to serve Palpatine. (?)


    Wait, a minute. You're omitting the part where Palpatine/Sidious attacks Mace and the other Jedi first , upon hearing word that he is going to be arrested. Mace wasn't intending to kill him at that point.


    And..the bold part is exactly the problem that only one kenobi and myself have: He doesn't care that Palpatine might be behind the war, and not even for what such involvement would logically entail concerning all the previous attempts made against Padme's life. (!!!)


    He no more has "no choice" than Luke had "no choice" but to become Palpatine's ally in ROTJ......


    only one kenobi has a good point here: How does Anakin not question the possibility that his visions of Padme's death were the doing of Palpatine/Sidious. The same doubts or second-guessing that you believe he should have concerning Palpatine's involvement behind the galactic war, you don't also think he should doubt the visions about Padme? And yes, there were the visions that he had about Shmi, which came true, but....could he not entertain the possibility that the Sith , even Sidious/Palpatine himself was behind that as well, and that the Tuskens were but proxies. (?)

    In a nutshell, I'm saying is that this same 'lack of evidence' you say he has regarding Palpatine being THE Sith Lord and his involvement behind the war, should also make you consider the 'lack of evidence' he has that the visions involving Padme will come true no matter what. And the same 'lack of evidence' he has that this guy has the ability or power to save anyone from dying, etc....


    But, this is not the picture of Vader circa SW/ANH. He has NOT been spending "20 years" scheming to kill Palpatine. And like I said, above, he was not "forced" to serve Palpatine. He had other ways out.


    "He might kill me" is, I think, a weak reason/excuse for Darth Vader becoming who he was in the OT. And, like I said, Luke in ROTJ could have used that same justification to turn (???).


    Well, he should also have "some doubt" about this shady person having the power/ability to save his wife (that is, if she really needing "saving" in the first place).


    [face_thinking]


    edit:

    Samnz
    Which, according to this stance, would mean that Anakin should have logically "turned" when he killed Dooku....



    One, there's the inherent absurdity in Anakin agreeing to kill practically everyone else BUT Palpatine/Sidious following his turn, thinking this will make him stronger, based not on any evidence whatsoever, but only on the word of a clearly (even to him, as much as us) evil person. The absurdity about this line of thinking is further highlighted when one juxtaposes this with Luke's temptation by the Emperor in ROTJ. Luke was (imho) sensibly not given the injunction to kill all of his Rebel friends in order to become strong in the dark side and help end the Galactic Civil War.

    Two, for all of this "consumption" of Anakin by the dark side by the end of ROTS, Vader - never mind Anakin - is a total failure. He has outlived any usefulness to Sidious that he had by this point, just like Dooku had done. By rights, he should have ended his own life, rather than continue on for 20 years. This is the disconnect with the OT that only one kenobi speaks of. Why does Sidious even put up with him, for so long, especially if it's supposedly apparent that he'd never be able to succeed him in the Sith/dark side regardless?

    Three, the OT - specifically, the end of ROTJ - also established that the dark side could be overcome, and....both Vader AND Luke did this.


    But as I said above, ROTJ has to be taken into account as well.

    Even so, as only one kenobi relates, the spell "wears off" when he wakes up in the suit, and he speaks as Anakin again. As far as his "failure" as Anakin, he is no less a "failure" as Vader, at this point. If he has no reason to continue his old life as Anakin, he has equally no in-universe reason to continue on as Vader. His becoming the Vader of the OT only because he lost everything as Anakin...is the tale of a prequel to a different OT.
     
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  4. LZM65

    LZM65 Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 24, 2015

    I don't think Obi-Wan and Yoda's versions of what led Anakin to embrace evil shouldn't be taken at its word. How would they know what really happened or what was going on within Anakin's mind? So I don't see how the PT story of what led to Anakin's downfall had contradicted what Obi-Wan and Yoda said in the OT movies. How could it? They don't really know what led him to betray the Jedi.
     
  5. Tosche_Station

    Tosche_Station Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Feb 9, 2015
    Obi-Wan and Yoda not knowing is from the viewpoint of seeing the OT through the lens of the PT. It, in other words, is presupposing the conceits of the PT-version of events, and taking them for granted....rather than arguing based on the OT alone why such would be the case (that they were in the 'dark' in terms of why/how Anakin had embraced evil).

    Two, your point is further undermined by the fact that when ROTJ was being made, Anakin wasn't even going to know about his wife being pregnant in the first place. So, Lucas back then wasn't establishing a back-story whereby there were circumstances about Anakin's turn that were unknown to Ben and Yoda.
     
  6. Darth Nerdling

    Darth Nerdling Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 20, 2013
    I would agree with this. Variants on this seem to be the other real option Vader has. He can wait and try to kill Palpatine or he can give up and kill himself. He could also go into exile and then plan to kill himself if he's found. I also think waiting for the right time to kill Palpatine makes sense too. The dark side does fill you with rage. So, anger focused on his hatred of Palpatine is also a strong motivating factor.


    I was merely trying to be brief. These posts get pretty long! However, I do address this in a later post.

    My main point is that after Palpatine has fried himself with his own lightning he appears not only weak but thoroughly defeated to the point of disfigurement, and yet Mace decides to kill him, which is clearly against the Jedi code. Neither Mace nor Anakin knew that that was Palpatine's true appearance and that he was only pretending to be weak. That's why he's so surprised when Palpatine bursts back to life and fries Mace.

    I think this is better argument than the Palpatine being behind the war argument. He just doesn't care about the war anymore. He's become too selfish, but he does still care about Padme.

    This is what I would say about that. Dooku was behind that. He was doing that for Nute Gunray. It was never established that Palpatine told Dooku to do that. (And really, Palpatine doesn't want her to die. He needs her as bait to lure Anakin.)

    Also, Palpatine is the one that suggests that Anakin should be sent away to protect Padme. So, it seems that Palpatine was also concerned about Padme's safety.

    My main point against this, though, is that Anakin is simply not thinking straight. He's just helped kill a Jedi master, he's just realized that Palpatine hasn't been completely honest with him, his wife is about to die, his whole world has been turned upside down. Just watch the moment when Anakin pledges himself to Palpatine and he says: "Just help me save Padme. I can't live without her." Anakin is totally messed up. He's not in the right mind to connect the dots, and that occurred 3 years earlier, and there had been other threats to her life since then. Anakin has to make a snap decision. He can't say to Palpatine: "Well, give me an hour to think this over." He knows that Palpatine is a Sith lord, and he might fry him right there if he rejects him. So, being totally psychological screwed up and having to make a snap decision, Anakin decides: "I'm going with Palpatine. He might be able help Padme. That's all I care about. Crap! I feel so traumatized I don't even feel like I'm able to rationally able to consider anything else."


    I agree, but Luke is a really noble guy. Anakin has become a selfish guy who admits: "I'm not the Jedi I should be. I want more." I'm not saying Anakin is morally right in his decision. I'm just saying given Anakin's character flaws, how emotionally screwed up he is, the position he is in, and his obsession with saving Padme, his choice to join Palpatine at that point makes sense psychologically -- not morally.


    However, Anakin has those visions when he has no real reason to doubt Palpatine. When he's having those visions, Palpatine still seems like an uncle-like figure to him.

    Anakin only realizes he's been duped after the Mace/Palpatine clash, and that point, he's in no position to think rationally about such speculative possibilities because he's so emotionally messed up.

    Also, while I agree that Palpatine being behind the visions is a fair interpretation, there isn't evidence that he is. GL thought about having Palpatine orchestrate the kidnapping of Shmi by the Sand People, but ultimately rejected that idea. So, sure it is possible that Palpatine is behind those visions, we see no evidence of that in the films, and I think the common interpretation is that Palpatine is not behind them. Plus, both visions end up coming true, and it's clear that Palpatine was not behind Padme's death, so that also suggests that Palpatine didn't create them.


    I think he has been spending his last 20 years waiting for his time to kill Palpatine. It's just pretty hard to kill a head of state who is more powerful than you and who can fry the cybernetics that keep you alive.

    Also, I agree with the post above that says that points to the power of the Sith master/apprentice. Vader: "I must obey my master!" There is something supernatural to the Sith relationship that compels Vader to follow Palpatine. Maybe, you think that's a plot contrivance, but that's something that's already established in the OT.


    Again, I'm not saying Anakin is making the moral choice. I'm simply saying it is psychologically believable considering who he is and the circumstances.



    Well, my point is little kids might not be able to follow what's going on in the Opera scene because nothing is said outright. Palpatine makes all his points through innuendo. I don't know if this was GL's rationale. It also may be an artifact leftover after re-shoots.

    Ultimately, if your chin scratch emoticon is meant to suggest I'm reaching for a good explanation, I agree. From my perspective, it is a small but real inconsistency in the film.



    But Palpatine is right. Killing the Jedi at the temple does make Anakin stronger in the dark side. You see it during his conversation with Padme on Mustafar. Anakin is clearly warped by the dark side at that point. His actions at the Jedi temple have allowed to dark side to begin to consume him.

    He doesn't kill Palpatine only because he can help him save Padme. After Palpatine helps him with that, he plans on killing Palpatine too. He's just saving him for last. He says this directly Padme: "I can overthrow him. Together you and I can rule the galaxy."

    Palpatine recognizes Vader has outlived most of his usefulness. That's why he wants to replace him with Luke. However, Palpatine wants a successor, and since he's wiped out almost all the force-users in the galaxy, and Vader is still pretty powerful, he has to live with Vader until he can find a better successor.


    The OT also establishes that it is incredibly difficult to overcome the addictive quality of the dark side. "It is too late for me, son." "I must obey my Master." "You don't understand the power of the dark side." It takes Vader seeing his own son being fried to death to sever his tie to it.

    Also, Luke, in ROTJ, only resists a dark side temptation. He is not consumed by the dark side at that point. Yoda says: "Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny." Luke is merely rejecting beginning down that dark path. He is not escaping being consumed by the dark side as Vader does in ROTJ.


    I'm not sure I'm following your point here, so maybe Samnz can answer better.

    However, if you're complaining that Vader still cares about Padme once he's in the suit, then here's my view on that. Sith are allowed to have attachments. In fact, they are encouraged to embrace their passions. So, Vader becoming enraged upon learning about Padme's death is in-keeping with Sith principles. It's so in-keeping with Sith principles that Vader's rage brings a smile to Palpatine's face.


    One other thing I would mention. I am merely giving my interpretation. I think multiple interpretations can be valid as long as they are not self-contradictory and don't contradict what's in the films. (For instance, I think it's a legit interpretation that Palpatine implanted Anakin's dream; that's just not my interpretation of it.) If it seems like I'm stating everything as fact, it's only because I don't want to keep repeating "It's my interpretation..." "It's my interpretation..."
     
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  7. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    You guys are doing a good job of this debate, I'm in a rush so I just have two small points to add.

    If you want a justification for Anakin's staying with Palpatine after losing Padme I think events on Mustafar are relevant. In Anakin's mind, by this stage, a traitorous Obi-Wan had turned on the Republic, corrupted Padme, then cut off his limbs and left him to burn. I see Palpatine coming to claim Vader from the lavabank as a meaningful nod to the OT. This is perhaps the only person besides himself that Palpatine would bother rescuing (it has been described as The Emperor's one act of compassion). He is basically saving Vader's life, and although, as a Sith, Vader keeps planning to overthrow Palpatine in the back of his mind, he has lost so much that he now essentially believes in the Empire as a means to an end. The novelisation's description of Vader being told he killed Padme (technically a lie) is quite fitting - at first he thinks of lashing out at Palpatine, but doesn't have the strength, in the end he doesn't even want to anymore. Because Sidious is now all he has. He realises he has failed, and killed Padme himself, and my personal interpretation is that he blames the weakness of the Anakin side of him for failing. Hence it is very fitting that he finally abandons any ties to his old self here.

    My second point is the relevance of the mirror tying Vader's fall to his redemption.
    Something I specifically like about the greater mirror between the Sith return and the Jedi return (that I won't go into here) is the parallel between Mace's and The Emperor's trust of Anakin/Vader at the end of each trilogy. Neither sees Anakin's betrayal coming. Mace, at the end, trusts Anakin now (his own words; "If what you have told me is true, you will have gained my trust"). Blind to Anakin's coming betrayal, he is focusing on killing the last Sith.
    Inversely, The Emperor is used to Vader's dog-like obediance to him, and focused on killing the last Jedi, he is blind to Vader's coming betrayal. I just always thought that was cool.
     
  8. PMT99

    PMT99 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 23, 2000
    But Vader is afraid of death which is the whole point of him turning to the dark side. In AOTC, he tells Padme that he will learn to stop people from dying and in ROTS, he hears PalpSidious tell the story of Darth Plaugeis having "such knowledge of the dark side, he could keep the ones he cared about from dying". Vader is not only afraid of letting other people die, he's also afraid of dying himself which is why he didn't even try to attack PalpSidious after he killed Mace. At that point, Vader knew that he was no match for him and he can't go back to the Jedi temple knowing they will sense his betrayal and kill him so Vader had to decide who he is much safer with: the Jedi or PalpSidious? Obviously, Vader picked PalpSidious because from his warped point of view, he felt "excluded from the Jedi order" and he wants to save Padme's life. When he lost her, his tearing down the medical facility was his attempt to kill PalpSidious, according to the ROTS novelization but his injuries, the robotic limbs, and the restrictive oxygen suit has stripped Vader of much of his powers. That and his fear of death kept him from committing suicide which led Vader to realize that he was doomed to be PalpSidious's servant forever.



    I too have a problem with this concept but after what happens to Vader by the end of ROTS, there isn't anything he can do about it.

    But by then, Vader didn't know that Luke survived Padme's death until he sensed him using the Force during the Death Star battle. When they meet in ESB, Vader tells Luke to join him so they can "destroy the Emperor" and " rule the galaxy as father and son".

    Except Luke isn't afraid to die and is willing to make sacrifices unlike his father.


    One: Actually, the Emperor gave Luke the injunction of saving his rebel friends simply by killing him to which Luke would've taken the bait had Vader not interfered. Then, when Vader says, "Give yourself to the dark side. It is the only way you can save your friends", he was trying to trick Luke the same way the Emperor tricked him and he almost accomplished that goal after discovering that Princess Leia is his daughter and Luke's sister. The only reason why Luke didn't turn is because he sees what the dark side did to his father and what its about to do to himself which is why he threw his lightsaber away.

    Two: Again, Vader's fear of death has prevented him from ending his own life and it is only when he sees Luke being pelted by the Emperor's lightning bolts did Vader get over his fear and finish off the Emperor like he should've done in ROTS. As for why Sidious kept Vader alive, 2 reasons: 1) Vader's trashing of the medical facility via the Force showed Sidious that Vader still had some power left in him which meant that he's still useful. 2) Sidious somehow knew that Anakin and Padme had a son together based on his conversation with Vader in ESB. He also knows that the kid is still alive and hiding somewhere in the galaxy so Sidious patiently waits for Luke to be old enough to replace Vader as Sidious's new apprentice.

    Three: It took Luke seconds to overcome the dark side whereas it took Vader decades to do the same.
     
  9. only one kenobi

    only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 2012
    Yes...he could do so many other things that make so much more sense than what we're supposed to believe he did here; which was embrace the Empire and all that it stood for, and what Palpatine stands for - despite what he has lost (everything) due to that man.


    And...again with the pretence that Anakin cares. Does he or doesn't he? One minute (see the next reply) you argue that he doesn't, then...when it seems to suit purpose he suddenly does. So here Anakin suddenly is thinking morally. Here, for some reason, we are supposed to believe that Anakin actually cares that this is "not the Jedi way". Let's see the scene as it would play out had Palpatine not (allegedly) had the power to save Padmé...do you think Anakin would have stopped Mace? For one...the rumination scene spells out why Anakin was there at all - because Palpatine has this 'knowledge' that may be able to save Padmé from certain death. It is that, the idea that if Palpatine dies then he'll never get that knowledge from him, that leads to him heading off to the Chancellor's office. There is no other reason. He isn't interested in whether or not the Jedi are following the correct judicial procedure. Even the opera scene emphasies that this is the only dynamic upon which his turn is predicated. Palptine there tries various baits to get Anakin's attention...and Anakin is lugubriously disinterested...until he hears of this 'power' to save the one's you love "from dying". Even that scene shows that the only hook that Palpatine has in Anakin is that. And Palpatine knows it...he repeats it endlessly. Even as he is frying himself he says "I have the power to save the one you love".

    When he says "You can't. He must face trial" and blathers on about it not being 'the Jedi way' he doesn't actually care about that - and he reveals what his real motivation is as he cuts Mace's hand off "I need him". Every scene hammers this home. Anakin doesn't care about anything but the power to save Padmé.

    So...to this. There are two points here. One is that..I have already said that I can accept what he does up to the point of Mace's death - and that's precisely on the basis that all he cares about is Padmé and the alleged power to save her from "certain death" as he sees it. But (see above) ...you want to argue here that Anakin just doesn't care but ..when it suits purpose, you want to argue that Anakin is really thinking about the moral proclivities in the moment (ie he really cares about 'the Jedi way')....but only in that moment. My argument all along has been that Anakin has only one thing on his mind, that he is acting selfishly and that he doesn't care about anything else - that is the basis upon which he is making his decisions. You are the one that is trying to introduce some other motive into his actions ...which are not borne out by the scenes, or even by what you claim here he is thinking at that moment. You are trying to have your cake and eat it.

    The second point is, the reason that Anakin knowing about Palpatine's true identity is not about showing how this affects his thinking but actually how it cuts through the ideas that he is, in some way, on Palpatine's side - other than for the sake of this power that he supposedly has to save Padmé. And on that front...

    So..I'll repeat - because it is worth repeating, because it cannot be emphasised too much - what Anakin says to Mace is that he thinks Palpatine is a Sith Lord "The one we have been looking for"

    He knows what Palatine has done, that he is behind the war, that he was working with Dooku, that he was the power behind the TF and the Separatists....and on top of that he wasn't ever convinced by Palpatine's arguments against the Jedi - he only took the bait when Palpatine talked of a power he thought he could use to save Padmé's life. So that...the idea that he has any philosophical or moral attachment to Palpatine's ideals is hollowed out even more.


    To put that another way.....you demand that we should not consider Anakin's knowledge of what Palpatine has done as affecting his choices (which I don't) but want to ignore the corollary of that which is that...Anakin is interested only in one thing; his selfish desire to have the power to save Padmé - but instead you wish to inform this clear and singular thought-process with a "subtext"; that Anakin is actually philosophically and morally tied to Palpatine's ideals. That idea is not borne out by any of the scenes or dialogue in ROTS. Everything points to Anakin being entirely focused on this power to save Padmé...and Lucas even tells us this is so. This is the fulcrum upon which his turn is centred.


    Indeed. My own aversion to this is that.....he's just been tricked AGAIN by Palpatine into helping him kill Mace, after feigning his own weakness. So, AGAIN, has shown himself to be utterly dishonest and unreliable. And then....goes on to inform Anakin that...errmm, yeah, I never actually learned that power but....I'm sure if we work together we can discover it. Okay...but I'll go with it. He's that desparate to save Padmé..and Palpatine is the only one who is offering even a vague possibility - his state of mind isn't the greatest. But...do you notice how you've obliterated any other concern that Anakin has? Rightly so. There is no subtext. His actions can only make sense if he is solely focusing on this power to save Padmé.

    But....that's the problem. That is my reason for disliking the way the turn was handled. Because...


    It makes sense at that point psychologically (or rather, it can make sense..I can accept Anakin's state of mind is a bit whacked) but only on the basis of what the scenes convey....that Anakin is solely focused on this power to save Padmé.

    And...if I believe that Anakin has become "drunk" on the darkside, that he is, indeed, possessed by it for the period when he throttles Padmé and tries to cut Obi-Wan up into pieces...it is clear that this 'spell' has worn off. Here we have Anakin who has lost everything and knows it. It would be nice if there had been a "subtext" to Anakin's turn, if he had indeed been seduced by Palpatine's ideals...but he isn't. he isn't seduced or convinced by them at all...and that is borne out by every scene in ROTS. It is all about Padmé and the power to save her - as you must insist for 95% of your argument, making an alternative suggestion only to attempt to invoke this "subtext" where it does not exist.

    So...this Anakin, who has lost everything...cannot be the Vader we find in ANH, who is totally committed to the Empire. And..much as Stover's take on Anakin's state of mind is initially impactful...one only has to consider it for a few minutes to see how little sense it actually makes. This is Anakin, who has lost everything...and he blames the Anakin side of him? All he has left is Palpatine? So....Anakin blames some notional 'other' Anakin' for having lost everything that...what? a different 'other' 'self' Anakin has lost? Erm...what? And...doesn't blame the 'shadow' that lied to him and tricked him?

    There is no subtext, all of the foreshadowing was for nothing. Lucas backed out of having Anakin become Vader and gave us a last-minute 'trick' in the place of a development of Vader from Anakin.
     
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  10. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    The thing is that Anakin is a coward. He chooses to serve because he's afraid of death and still believes in the Empire. Which leads to point number two.

    Anakin's top priority is Padme, but he also does believe in Palpatine the political figure. Anakin starts justifying his actions to himself as being for the Republic and Padme. That's why Anakin goes to the Temple, because he knows that the Jedi will come for them both and that they are the problem. When he goes to Mustafar, it is the same way. As noted, when he talks to Palpatine and then Padme and Obi-wan, he keeps talking about the Empire. About how he brought peace and justice to it and that he will kill anyone that interferes with that.

    What Stover was saying is that Anakin was thinking that the dragon was something other than what it was, which was himself. He was in denial that he was becoming evil and trying to justify and rationalize his decisions, trying to see that it wasn't really him. But he has finally admitted that he is the problem. Himself. All the evil, the greed, the selfishness was himself. Which goes back to why he says that it is too late for himself, when Luke says that he believes that he can turn away from all this death and destruction.

    But Anakin is seduced by Palpatine's ideals. The picnic scene in AOTC, where Anakin states that he believes in a dictatorship. That someone should force the people to do what is necessary. Then in ROTS, he again throws his support behind Palpatine to Obi-wan and Bail. Then when he's confronting Mace and finally when he's rambling on to Padme and to Obi-wan. He believes in the Empire even if he doesn't like Palpatine anymore. When he's talking, he is wanting everything. He talks about wanting to rule the galaxy with Padme and make changes to the way things are. He wants her by his side when he does this and even after losing her, he still wants to make change. He just has to do it without her. Then Luke comes along and now he wants to make those changes again with his son's help.
     
  11. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    ARGH! I just wrote a huge rebuttal to the post by only one kenobi on my phone and lost it. I will try again tomorrow.

    For now I will just write this... Was the "blames his good self" thing referencing my post? Cos that part was just my own spin on it as I said, its not in the novel. I just think it adds to the fact Vader, who was rationalising his actions when he first pledged, now loathes himself and accepts he is evil, which is what we are seeing in their final scene as they watch the construction of the Deathstar.

    Ugh I can't believe I deleted that post, it was pretty long lol
     
  12. mikeximus

    mikeximus Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2012
    Cryogenic and HevyDevy, the two of you have made some amazing posts. I often don't understand how people don't see the progression (or digression) of Anakin Skywalker to the point that we see him in, in ROTS.
    One of the things that i have often compared Anakins turn to the Dark Side is that of the a Serial Killer....

    For most Serial Killers, the first couple of times they kill, it is a very emotional messy thing for them. However, the more they kill, the easier it becomes for them to the point that killing is mechanical.

    There are a multiple reasons that Anakin turned to the Dark Side. All of them relate to each other in some way or manner and are touched upon in AOTC and then even further built upon in ROTS. Attachment and Power... Attachment is the primary reason Anakin turns along with Power, but, Power is the reason he stays even after realizing that Palpatine was probably full of ****...

    • Attachment:
    Anakins attachment, his greed to want to keep the things he loves, is the biggest reason for Anakin's turn. Anakin's inability to fully detach himself from his mother is what leads him to Tatooine. The Tusken Slaughter relates specifically to his fall because it shows he is susceptible to his emotions and using the Dark Side to achieve the necessary power to do what he wants (kill an entire tribe). It also shows his state of mind after the event of his mother dying that correlates directly with ROTS..

    Padme; Sometimes there are things
    no one can fix.
    - You're not all-powerful, Ani.

    Anakin: - Well, I should be!
    Someday I will be.
    I will be
    the most powerfulJedi ever!
    I promise you.
    I will even learn
    to stop people from dying.

    Right there is a setup for the emotions that Anakin carries over into ROTS...
    After the fact, Anakin knows what he did was wrong, he is very emotional about what he did and he puts the wrongness of his actions squarely on his own shoulders and takes blame for what he did:

    "I'm a Jedi, I know I'm better than this"

    So now we get into ROTS and Dooku. Again, Anakin's actions show that he is susceptible to the emotions that lead him to use the Dark Side. However, this time he doesn't need an emotional tragedy, like the death of his mother, to tap into the Dark Side (a progression towards the Dark Side):

    Dooku: I sense great fear in you, Skywalker. You have hate, You have anger. But you don't use them...

    It's at this point that it becomes obvious that Anakin starts using the Dark Side, as his face becomes more stern and he starts beating Dooku back. Dooku is forced on the defensive until Anakin un-hands him...

    Once Anakin executes Dooku, his remorse for an action that he knows is wrong is a lot more subdued from that of the Tusken slaughter, Anakin is getting used to doing the things he knows are wrong (again a progression towards the Dark Side)

    So Anakin starts having the visions of Padme dying. There is no reason for Anakin to not trust these visions, as his visions of his mother came true. Anakin, continuing the state of mind from the tusken slaughter in AOTC "I will even learn to stop people from dying" is now far more susceptible to Palpatine's seductions.

    In the Opera scene, the seduction continues, the lights are dim, there is soft music playing in the background, and Palpatine dismisses his entourage so they can be alone...

    Palpatine tries to continue his seduction by trying to blur the lines between the Jedi and Sith philosophies, however Anakin refuses this line of thinking. So Palpatine goes to plan "B", to learn to stop people from dying. Which is exactly what Anakin wants to hear.

    so with that, Palpatine plants the seed in Anakins head that in order to learn the secret of immortality, Anakin would have to learn it through the Dark Side, as a Jedi would not teach him as they consider it unnatural.

    So again the seed is planted, if Anakin wants to save his wife, he has to do it through the Dark Side, and not the Jedi.

    Anakin's visions of Padme's death continue... He becomes increasingly desperate as he knows she will die in child birth and she is coming closer and closer to that moment...

    Anakin even goes on to tell Padme he has found a way to save her, obviously referring to what Palpatine has told him. This shows us that Anakin has bought in to what Palpatine told him.

    So when Anakin delivers the news to Palpatine that Obi Wan has engaged Grievous, Palpatine realizes that Obi Wan will be successful and it will set in motion the coming confrontation. The big reveal needs to happen now.

    This is where Palpatine needs to make himself important to Anakin on a personal level. Palpatine = Dark Side, Dark Side = Power to save Padme. Anakin is still conflicted on what to do, so he does his duty and reports Palpatine, with the intention to see how the Jedi react to the news.

    Once Anakin lets his fear get to him (that the Jedi will kill Palpatine and Anakin loses his chance to save Padme) Anakin races to Palpatines office to find that Mace is going to kill Palpatine.

    So here it is, the choice, let Mace kill Palpatine and loose any chance of saving Padme, or stop Mace. This is where Anakin's greed again gets the best of him. His greed, his ability to not be able to let go of his attachments, is what drives him to turn on Mace. Notice Anakin doesn't kill Mace, he merely disarms him. Anakin could have easily killed Mace.

    Once Palpatine finishes off Mace, Anakin has that moment of regret, as he had with the Tuskens and Dooku, excpet this time, there is no going back. There is no pretending it didn't happen, or confessing it to someone that will keep his secret. So this time Anakin realizes he is all in, he can't go back. So again, we see another progression of Anakin to the darkside...

    Much like the serial killer, Anakin becomes mechanical. He no longer needs emotion to tap into the dark side, he can immerse himself at will. He becomes mechanical, detaching himself from the moment so he can commit his atrocities, because he knows he has too. He made his choice. So mechanically, just like the clones he is leading, he stiffly marches into the Jedi Temple....

    However, after the fact, he is still conflicted...

    There is a solid progression from AOTC to ROTS that shows Anakin's turn and why he turns. With each instance his regret becomes less, his ability to use the Dark Side becomes bsed less on over the top emotion. It is easier for him to kill, to the point he can become mechanical and just do it, to the point where he just sheds a tear for all the death he has spread.

    • Power
    The power aspect is part of the reason Anakin turns, he needs power in order to learn how to save Padme, however, power is why he stays with Palpatine after Padme dies.

    Clearly as Anakin has lost everything, Padme, the Jedi, his physical form, only his need for more power feeds him. That need to find a way to over throw Palpatine so that he (as Vader) can rule the galaxy as he sees fit.

    As we see in AOTC, even before the death of Shmi, it is obvious Anakin wants more power, and blames Obi Wan (and the Jedi by extension) as the source of his lack of power.We see Palpatine building up Anakin's ego that he will be the most powerful Jedi ever. After the death of Shmi, he again states that he blames Obi Wan. Clearly this means that if it wasn't for Obi Wan holding him back, he would be powerful enough to save his Mother. We hear Anakin repeating lines of dialogue that are similar to what Palpatine said to him earlier.

    In the meadow picnic scene we hear Anakin letting slip his idea of what needs to be done to bring peace to the Republic, that one person be in charge and makes people do the right thing. A symbol of singular power (and clearly from Palpatine).

    In ROTS Anakin tells Padme that he isn't the Jedi he's suppose to be, he wants more (power) and he knows he shouldn't.

    So the power angle while not as front and center as attachment in ROTS has it place in the psychology of Anakin Skywalker.

    Once Anakin loses everything, he has nothing more than clinging to his power. He can't take Palpatine on 1 on 1 anymore like he originally planned because he has been weakened by Obi Wan and their duel. That is why when Luke shows up, Vader wants him so bad. Luke is the key that Vader needs to help him kill Palpatine and "end this destructive conflict and bring order to the galaxy". The same theme that a young Anakin shares with Padme in the meadow picnic. So it is clear that what has kept Vader going all these years is finding a way to become more powerful than Palpatine to do what he proclaimed to Padme he would do in Episode 3.
     
    darth ladnar and HevyDevy like this.
  13. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    Cheers for the compliment, nice analysis.
    Have you read my essay on Anakin's fall? I just bumped it to pg 1 of this PT forum. I'm going to sleep now, but I will give your post a better response tomorrow ;)
     
  14. only one kenobi

    only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 2012
    No, he doesn't believe in Palpatine the political figure. He may have had some faith in the "good man" and "friend" that he thought (past tense) Palpatine was but the scenes in ROTS explicitly show Anakin not being convinced by Palpatine's political ideals. In the opera scene he rejects Palpatine's suggestion that the Jedi and the Sith are similar. He is not interested, and in fact seems uncomfortable and peed off as Palpatine tries to hook him with something....and the only thing that gets Anakin's attention is what he believes is a power to save Padmé.

    Once he learns who Palpatine really is he would like to kill him. Why? Because he knows the truth of him now. Because he is the Sith Lord "we have been looking for".

    It would be good if there were some element within his fall of him (Anakin) actually believing in Palpatine's ideas but that isn't the story that Lucas decided to tell when it mattered. He backed out of the process of Anakin becoming Vader and put in its place a Faustian pact - where he makes his decisions based upon saving Padmé. Lucas is not only explicit about that in the actual narrative (how the scenes actually work) but also in how he tells us this comes about. that's why there is a tear on Mustafar...because he knows that what he has done is wrong; there is no sense in which Anakin believes in what he is doing for its own sake...he only believes it is worth it to save Padmé.

    When Anakin throttles Padmé and battles with Obi-Wan he is supposed to be "drunk" on or "possessed" by the darkside...you'll note the different..very different Anakin that awakes in the suit to discover that he has lost everything.

    You want to see a "subtext" and so you project it into the narrative but the scenes themselves don't support the notion. It is how it could have worked, but isn't the story that Lucas told. That is precisely my problem with the turn - because it is a separate event from the 'foreshadowing' and it does not follow on from Anakin becoming Vader, in coming to believe in Palpatine's ideas.
     
  15. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2011
    Didn't George's original idea have Anakin take Palpatine's side and just stand by as Palpatine killed Mace and the Jedi or something? I've heard something about that, seen pics, then Spielberg told him it was terrible or something so George changed it.

    Anyone have the details on that? Script? Was Anakin more committed to Palpatine's politics in that version? While he was of sound mind? At least relatively speaking.
     
  16. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    I read this somewhere as well: Originally Anakin turned after he killed Dooku--that was his "initiation". He essentially played double agent through most of the movie and yes, was in Palpatine's office when Mace and the other Jedi arrived.

    The only line from the script is Obi-Wan telling Padme that after Dooku died, Anakin became his apprentice.
     
  17. Darth Nerdling

    Darth Nerdling Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 20, 2013
    only one kenobi, I have no problem with your interpretation of Anakin's fall. If you want to place importance only on the lines that you place importance on, then that's your right.

    However, there are other elements that other people can fairly see as motivating factors for Anakin's fall. Just because you do not place emphasis on those elements does not mean that it is incorrect to interpret those other factors as shaping Anakin's behavior as well. There are intentional parallels made between Palpatine and Jedi (that they both ask Anakin to spy on the other, and spying on Palpatine is arguably worse because spying on a head of state is treasonous as Anakin points out). There are intentional parallels between Mace's actions towards Palpatine and Anakin's towards Dooku, both are killing or attempting to kill a seemingly helpless man. There are other lines of dialogue that show other motives for Anakin that you simply choose to ignore. Again, that's your choice, but that doesn't make it wrong when someone cites them. For instance, Anakin, before the Palpatine/Mace scene says: "I'm not the Jedi I should be. I want more." This indicates he's power-hungry, which is just another motivating factor besides his desire to save Padme. He also becomes angry when he senses that Obi-Wan has visited Padme, showing Anakin's jealousy and even slight paranoia. Anakin is also described as arrogant more than once. Arrogance is a sign of being self-centered, a Sith characteristic. In ATOC, Anakin directly states his preference for dictatorships over democracies. There is the indifference of the Jedi's philosophy to Anakin's plight. All of these things and more are in the films, but you choose to place no emphasis on them. That's fine, but it's not wrong when someone else factors in these aspects into Anakin's fall.

    Furthermore, you still seem to be purposely ignoring the main point of my argument, so I'll still state it once again. Once Anakin realizes that Palpatine has tricked him, Anakin is an emotional mess, he can't think rationally, and he has no opportunity to take a break and think things through. He can't say: "Give me a day to consider your offer." He has to make a choice right then and there -- either go with Palpatine or his enemies, and so, if Anakin declines his offer, Palpatine will likely KILL HIM, which also probably plays a small role in Anakin's decision. So, as I said before, an emotionally and psychologically compromised Anakin, a guy so emotionally messed up that he can't think straight, uses Palpatine's past lies to rationalize his choice and denies any other possible worldviews. (Rationalizing is a psychological mechanism in which people accept false logic to justify their behavior.) And everything I need for THIS interpretation appears right in the conversion scene. Anakin is clearly completely emotionally overwhelmed when he says: "I do whatever you ask. Just help me save Padme." And he clearly returns to Palpatine's line of argument moments later when Anakin says: "Their next move will be against the senate." You're interpretation is that Anakin should be the type of guy who remains very composed, and because he doesn't, that means he's an idiot. My interpretation is that Anakin is so emotionally screwed up that he can't think straight so he falls back on Palpatine's web of lies as a way to rationalize what he intends to do next. There is simply no way you can say my interpretation is not a valid interpretation of the what's going. Is it the only possible interpretation? No, but it's certainly a valid one. There's no way you can't say that what's going on in Anakin's head, and the film provides some evidence that that is what's going on in his head.

    So, as I've said, Anakin is not in the right state of mind to sort through Palpatine's web of lies and figure out what's true. Palpatine's created one narrative for reality in his head, and he's so screwed up that he can't imagine another narrative that might be true. In fact, Anakin would still be drawn to this false narrative since he wants to save Padme, and Palpatine is still his only possible shot at that. He's desperate to imagine a world in which Padme will keep on living, and Palpatine's web of lies, Palpatine's false narrative, gives him a way of looking at the world in which he can achieve his most important goal -- saving Padme. And since Anakin is so emotionally compromised after Mace's death, he can't figure out another way to make sense of world anyway.

    And really, I don't think my description of Anakin's behavior is at all a false portrayal of reality. Just consider this example: You too have one narrative in your mind, and you can't seem to possibly imagine that another narrative might make sense either. Again, I'm not saying you have to accept my interpretation, but you seem incapable of considering that other people might have differing interpretations that are valid also. Now, what's causing this mental block? I would argue that you have so much invested in your negative critique of ROTS, which you have probably argued for in the past on countless occasions sometimes with heated language, that you can't possibly allow yourself to imagine that another valid interpretation might exist, because if another valid interpretation did exist, then you'd feel like a dope, and since you don't want to feel like a dope, your brain simply short-circuits whenever someone makes other valid counter-arguments, and that's why, even though I've given a perfectly valid alternative -- that Anakin is emotionally compromised and rationalizing his behavior after Mace's death -- you simply ignore this valid alternative, as you see it as a direct threat to your view that Anakin is a complete moron.

    In posts above, I have presented this argument countless times that you keep dodging, and I'm guessing that you're not in the middle of a war, that you don't believe your wife is destined to die soon, that you just haven't witnessed a comrade try to commit murder and then acted complicit in his murder by mistake, that you're not standing in front of a guy who can fry you with lightning, and you haven't been fed a ton of lies by an uncle-like figure who happens to be the president of the galaxy, and yet nevertheless, it seems like your capacity to rationalize and deny (i.e. push unwanted facts out of your mind) is preventing you from understanding my pretty simple argument. Given this, I think your own behavior shows just how powerful the forces of denial and rationalization are, and since Anakin is dealing with all of the above stress in his life, I'm inclined to give him a break because he's clearly not in the right mind to think things through. Now, it's perfectly fine if you don't want to believe that Anakin could possibly be falling victim to rationalization and denial, and to be honest, even I am starting to have some sympathy for your perspective, because that's what I'm dealing with right now.

    Now, as you come to the end of my response, I'm betting you're feeling a little miffed and insulted, maybe hot under the collar, and probably you'll also go on to deny that you responded this way in your next response simply out of pride. Well, welcome to Anakin's world, except multiply it by 1000. Conflict causes people to lose their wits. Small conflicts do so a little bit, big conflicts a huge amount. Now, I'm certainly not suggesting that you've lost your mind because of this post. You're probably a little peeved, but because you're peeved, your first instinct will inevitably be to find a hole in my argument and smash it to bits and defend your narrative, your version of the truth, and your last instinct is to consider that another version of things might be true. Well, again, welcome to Anakin's world. That's exactly what Anakin is dealing with times 1000. When people are emotionally compromised, they cling to the version of reality that makes them feel most comfortable, and that's what you're doing here.

    Of course, you can prove me wrong by finally recognizing that my interpretation of the scene is a perfectly valid one, but then again, I doubt your world has been turned upside down like Anakin's has, so that's really quite a substantially easier task for you than it is for Anakin. My bet is you'll again ignore my argument or use some tortured logic to deny the possibility that Anakin could rationalizing, but in responding that way, your response will only demonstrate once again how difficult it is for a person to overcome the very human instinct to rationalize and deny.
     
  18. Evil Spock

    Evil Spock Jedi Knight

    Registered:
    Oct 29, 2014
  19. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    Didnt end up sleeping. Oh well, kinda helps with creativity.

    only one kenobi , I actually addressed things within the films in the post I lost, I might as well try again. Here goes...


    1- Similarities in Anakin and Palpatine's beliefs.

    Anakin becomes influenced by Palpatine over the PT, but he actually has some attributes Palpatine can exploit from early on.

    "Mom you say the biggest problem in the universe is nobody helps each other." This sounds, in a way, like Palpatine's comment to Padme in the same film "There is no interest in the common good." Idealism in Anakin that can lead him to great then terrible things.

    "No one can kill a Jedi." Very telling and ironic line foreshadowing many aspects of his future.
    Anakin also has a headstrong competitive streak from early on.

    "I can fix anything!" While it just sounds like childish optimism, it is spookily echoed by Anakin in the next film when Anakin fails to "fix" the situation involving the death of his mother and vows never to fail again.

    ----------------------------------------------------

    "We will watch your career with great interest." I think the full extent of Palpatine's influence over 13 years goes largely unappreciated. By episode 2 Anakin is saying some very Palpatine-esque things.

    Palpatine: "I see you becoming greatest of all Jedi Anakin." ... Anakin: "I will be the most powerful Jedi ever!"

    Padme: "Sounds an awful lot like a dictatorship to me." Anakin: "Well... If it works."

    Obi-Wan: "The Senate is expected to vote more executive powers to the Chancellor today."
    "Well that can only mean less deliberating and more action. Is that bad? It will make it easier to end this war."

    Palpatine: "When the Jedi learn what has transpired here they will kill us, along with all the Senators."
    Anakin: "I agree. The Council's next move will be against the Senate."


    Palpatine (deleted scene before Palpatine appoints Anakin as his representative on the Council): "There are times when we all must endure amendments to the Constitution in the name of security." ...much later... "Now Lord Vader, go forth and bring peace to the Empire."
    Anakin: "I have brought peace, justice, freedom and security to my new Empire!" "Your new Empire?!?"


    And a really obvious one -
    Palpatine: "Good is a point of view Anakin."
    Obi-Wan: "Anakin, Chancellor Palpatine is evil!"
    Anakin: "From my point of view the Jedi are evil!"
    ----------------------------------------------------

    2- Isolation from Jedi Masters:

    There is a recurring theme where Obi-Wan is obliviously absent at crucial times. He doesn't see the Tusken massacre, Dooku's death and Mace's death. Palpatine is of course in on all three events, quite intentionally (both on the part of Palpatine and the writing itself). Anakin trusts him enough to tell him things he would never tell the Jedi (although he is still surprised to learn Palpatine knows about his marriage to Padme).
    Furthermore, Qui-gon's death puts Anakin with a mentor arguably not suited for an apprentice like him. Anakin also never experiences Yoda's tutelage as a child, and even when Anakin goes to Yoda for advice Yoda only tells him what he doesn't want to hear. Note that I don't doubt Yoda's teachings would be adequate for most Jedi, but for Anakin it is too little too late.
    Something interesting I observed while typing the initial version of this post was Sidious's/Yoda's relevance to a mirror between Luke and Anakin.
    When Anakin kills Dooku (by beheading him) Palpatine (the demon) is there to justify it with a reminder - "It wasn't the first time Anakin. Remember what you told me about your mother and the sandpeople." When Luke faces the Vader apparition in the cave (and himself) notice it is again a beheading, and later Yoda (the god) reminds him "Remember your failure at the cave!" I wonder if it was intentional, this very specific opposite pull.

    ----------------------------------------------------

    3- Palpatine vs the Council:

    This is a tricky one. The plotting between Sidious and the Jedi is actually quite complicated at times. Anakin sort of plays for both teams, both sides telling him to spy on the other, but Palpatine being far sneakier about it.

    -They essentially both ask him to do the same thing in the second act of Rots, but Palpatine comes out more favourably.
    ie, "I'm appointing you to be my personal representative on the Jedi Council." "Me? A master. I'm overwhelmed sir." Vs "We want you to report on all the Chancellor's dealings." They want me to spy on the Chancellor? That's treason!"
    Quite ironic when Obi-Wan is generally worried about doing this to Anakin, where the supposedly supportive Palpatine created the wedge on purpose knowing they would do exactly that. He is of course helping increase Anakin's stress (which it seems implied is essentially of the darkside) and making himself look far more loyal than he actually is. But this is pretty obvious I guess.
    Trivially, I love the detail of a pov truth regarding whether the Council was slighting Anakin here. On one side, he is the only Council member who is not given Mastership, but inversely he is the youngest person to ever join. So you could easily argue either way.


    - Sending Yoda to Kashyyyk. This plot thread remained in the novel, but they don't seem to mention it directly in the film. The Jedi, suspecting a Sith may be in Palpatine's circle, are trying to beat the Sith at their own game. By specifically sending Yoda offworld the Jedi hope to appear weak and entice the Sith into making a move. It of course catostrophically backfires when Anakin turns and Order 66 is enacted, and Yoda is unable to be on Coruscant to help, if he could of. Plus, when it happens the Jedi are vulnerably scattered thinly across the galaxy because of the war.

    - Sending Obi-Wan to Utapau. As if things aren't bad enough, Obi-Wan, arguably the only Jedi who could have talked some sense into Anakin, is offworld when Anakin turns. At the Opera, Palpatine had suggested Anakin should "worry about the collective wisdom of the Council if they don't choose you... you're the best choice... by far." Yet again Palpatine looks generous compared to the Jedi, the irony - again - being that he needs Anakin on Coruscant himself. Also, it may be again one of Palpatine's pov truths - Anakin would likely be stronger against Grievous and the Jedi wouldn't necessarily be unwise to send him. Hayden's nervous "The Chancellor has requested... that I lead the campaign." is well acted IMO, as is Jackson's stern "The Council will make up it's mind who is to go, not the Chancellor." Mace thinks he is defying Palpatine but the joke's on them.

    - Last paragraph (phew). The Jedi obviously weren't trying to literally overthrow the Republic, yet they blindly don't let Anakin in on enough for him to be able to realise this. A couple of quick examples. The following line by Mace - "Anakin. Deliver this report to the Chancellor. His reaction will give us a clue to his intentions." "Yes Master." While on the surface this is more open than a lot of how the Jedi deal with Anakin in the film, look at what happens as soon as Anakin leaves the room; "I sense a plot to destroy the Jedi. The dark side of the force surrounds the Chancellor."
    I mean, isn't that exactly the kind of thing Anakin should have been told. What follows is the only Jedi exchange in the final film (I think) that reflects they would have to remove Palpatine from office if he didn't give up his power. "To a dark place this line of thought could carry us. Great care we must take." is tragically probably the exact comment Anakin needed to hear. It is reflected in the following scene with Palpatine. Palpatine 's reaction? "We can only hope that Master Kenobi is up to the challenge!" (Lol) And Anakin aptly suggests he is being excluded from the Council.
    Again the writing does the echoing thing;
    Palpatine: "They don't trust you Anakin." (Mace earlier: "I don't trust him.")
    Palpatine: "You're not entirely sure of their intentions, are you?" (Mace in the prior scene - "His reaction will give us a clue to his intentions.")

    I don't need to say it, but its pretty obvious why Anakin would be conflicted.
     
    darth ladnar likes this.
  20. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    On a roadtrip, so if the net lasts I thought I would properly respond to mikeximus.

    Before that just wanna mention that I wrote a word wrong on my last post - Obi-wan is genuinely worried about Anakin not "generally". Not that different, but tbh the original post before I accididentally erased it was better written. Still got most of the points across so meh.

    Yeah, its there if you look, I love that about ROTS particularly, there is a lot of replay value, the movie was quite meticulously designed.

    Well put. I feel that Rotj Vader dialogue particularly still rings true.


    Agreed with everything there. Although I would argue that while Anakin's emotional outburst is fitting, it is partially stubborn pride that makes him say he should be better. Yes, he is admitting his flaws here, but he is also holding himself (and Jedi) up to an unrealistic superhuman standard - Padme reminds him "To be angry is to be human." I understand it is part of the burden of being a Jedi, but just thinking aloud.


    Interesting. I've actually wondered which act is worse; while Dooku is more dignified than the Tuskens, his crimes are more premeditated. And where with the Tuskens innocent bystanders (children) are killed, Anakin wasnt in an uncontrolled rage with Dooku. Debatable.


    Something I noticed with this moment is Dooku is channeling both his Masters - Yoda and Sidious.
    Yoda's TPM comment is kind of inverted - "Everything! Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering! I sense much fear in you." Palatine however, is one of the many throne-room mirrors in the Dooku scene - "Use your aggressive feelings boy! Let the hate flow through you." The difference between ep3 and ep6, I think, is Luke is much slower to anger.


    I'll just say well put generally for your whole post. I noticed Palpatine's "subject change" also. He is cleverly testing Anakin's limits.


    Just two trivial things you may have noticed; firstly Anakin receiving contrasting light side advice "Death is a natural part of life." and darkside advice "The dark side is a pathway to many abilities, some consider to be unnatural."
    Secondly, Yoda and Palpatine actually both say death is natural, but Palpatine is referring to revenge killing - "It is only natural. He took your arm, you wanted revenge." where Yoda is talking of letting go. It is well written if you look at it from the right angle.


    Totally, and he is definitely already starting to lose his grip on reality, and slide. He sounds pretty dark when he says this to Padme. And they are both promising each other something they tragically can't deliver.


    I'm running out of battery, so I will have to continue this later. Peace.
     
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  21. Darth Nerdling

    Darth Nerdling Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 20, 2013
    I honestly think what people are really complaining about when they say -- "Anakin became evil too quickly" -- is that they expected that when Anakin gains the title of Vader that that would be the moment when he was completely consumed by the dark side. They came in with the expectation that Anakin becoming Vader and being consumed by the dark side would happen at the very same time, and it threw them off when those moments don't neatly coincide. When Anakin accepts his new title, he is certainly down the path to the dark side but he is also tricked into having to become Palpatine's ally; Anakin is fully evil then. Anakin goes through a lot more before he is consumed by the dark side.

    Anakin does become consumed by the dark side and evil by the film's end. That occurs when he learns of Padme's death and he destroys the medical facility in rage. At that point, Anakin is fully Vader. He has lost his last connection to his old life, and his sole purpose becomes finding a way to kill Palpatine and take over as a dictator himself.

    Anakin was killing children as early as ATOC, and he only seems to show mild regret at lopping off the head of Dooku and breaking the Jedi code while he was at it. Anakin's has been showing violent dark side tendencies for a full film and a half.

    In fact, his dark side fall takes up so much of the films that many people complain that we don't get enough a chance to see the good Anakin that Obi-Wan talks about in ANH. If anything, I'm inclined to agree with that perspective.
     
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  22. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011

    On the contrary, it's not even really a lie. It's a perfectly reasonable assumption based on what he's just seen and all that he knows about Mace and the other council members. After all, senior members of the Jedi Council (and Mace specifically) were seriously discussing the possibility of making a move against the Senate:

    Anakin was right. That's exactly what the Jedi would have done if they hadn't been taken out by Order 66 first.
     
  23. mikeximus

    mikeximus Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2012

    LMAO... a conversation that Anakin never heard, and one that you are taking out of context compared to what Palpatine meant and Anakin agreed with...

    too hilarious...
     
  24. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Anakin rejects it because this is the first time that Palpatine has ever said such a thing and he immediately rejects it, but he also knows that there are things that don't sit right with him about the Jedi.

    PALPATINE: "Anakin, you know I’m not able to rely on the Jedi Council. If they haven’t included you in their plot, they soon will."

    ANAKIN: "I’m not sure I understand."

    PALPATINE: "You must sense what I have come to suspect . . . the Jedi Council want control of the Republic . . . they’re planning to betray me."

    ANAKIN: "I don’t think . . ."

    PALPATINE: "Anakin, search your feelings. You know, don’t you?"

    ANAKIN: "I know they don’t trust you . . . "

    PALPATINE: "Or the Senate . . . or the Republic . . . or democracy for that matter."

    ANAKIN: "I have to admit my trust in them has been shaken."

    PALPATINE: "Why? They asked you to do something that made you feel dishonest, didn’t they? They asked you to spy on me, didn’t they?"

    ANAKIN: "I don’t know … I don’t know what to say."

    Here, he has doubts about the Council's true intentions. He rejects the idea that the Jedi and the Sith are the same, which is fine because of what happens later on.

    He wants to kill him because he's angry at the deception and what he had done, but he also still suspects that Palpatine is right.

    ANAKIN: "I am going to turn you over to the Jedi Council."

    PALPATINE: "Of course you should. But you’re not sure of their intentions, are you? What if I am right and they are plotting to take over the Republic?"

    ANAKIN: "I will quickly discover the truth of all this."


    That's because Lucas was keeping in with the struggle that he has in ROTJ. He was showing that there was a good man still in there, who is fighting against what is happening to himself, but then he continues to justify his actions.

    "There's always this good in you. And the good part is saying 'what am I doing?'. Then the bad part kicks in and says 'I'm doing this for Padme, I'm doing this for the galaxy and so we can have a better life'. But the good part is always saying 'WHAT AM I DOING?!"

    --George Lucas to Hayden Christensen, Hyperspace webdoc.


    So he is going back and forth between believing in Palpatine and questioning himself. But more and more the bad part is taking over. Even before the tear, he shows that he is believing in it when he agrees to the attack on the Temple and Mustafar.

    Anakin has let his anger take hold of him, which is why he does what he does. When he starts on his rant, that is before his anger at a betrayal has manifested itself. It is Anakin's true thought process coming through.

    "The thing that breaks Padme's heart in the end is the fact that Anakin says to her, 'Come and join me. I have all the power now. I can rule the universe and you can do it with me.' So the idea of saving her life has become a minor issue. And that's when she says, 'Wait a minute. This is not what I want and you're not the guy I fell in love with!'"

    --George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 52


    He only becomes angry when she starts disagreeing with him and keeps talking about Obi-wan, and then sees that he's there on her ship. That's why he attacks her. But when they meet up, he's still in control and he lets his true ambitions shine through. When he asks about her, that is the part that still cares for her. But that's also because of his earlier ambition.

    ANAKIN: "Don’t you see, we don’t have to run away anymore. I have brought peace to the Republic. I am more powerful than the Chancellor. I can overthrow him, and together you and I can rule the galaxy. Make things the way we want them to be."

    ANAKIN: "Don’t lecture me, Obi-Wan. I see through the lies of the Jedi. I do not fear the dark side as you do. I have brought peace, justice, freedom, and security to my new Empire."
     
  25. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011

    I never said Anakin heard it. In fact, the film makes a point to show that Anakin did not hear it. The rest of the Council is plotting behind Anakin's back.The point is that Anakin's suspicions weren't unfounded in the slightest.

    And yes, that's exactly what Palpatine meant and Anakin agreed with. They were afraid the Jedi were going to take over the Senate and start calling the shots. What do you think they meant by "The council's next move will be against the Senate"?