PT Anakin Deserved More Respect From The Jedi Council

Given how many attitudes Mace and Anakin are depicted as sharing in common in TCW, he should have received more respect from him at least. They are both militant.

 

Anakin's point of view is that he needs him. Not really relevant.

Sure, and in ROTJ Anakin could have pushed Sidious to the side instead of throwing him down a shaft and kill him.

Not sure how mutilation is better than a fast kill without pain and suffering of someone who resisted arrest, murdered 3 Jedi Masters and tried to kill Mace. Mace chose the pragmatic route since not only was he still dangerous but he would never get a fair trial.

He tried to arrest him.

Anakin could care less about right and wrong. He knew he was wrong, but chose to feed his desires and attachment instead of doing the right thing. That's why he joined Palpatine. Blaming the Jedi is a weak (and false) justification, and he knows it. It's a cheap excuse to rationalize his actions.

 

It is relevant because Palpatine lives or dies because of his point of view.

At that point, Anakin knows better and understands that Palpatine is a master of deception. And Palpatine is not helpless.

Not sure how mutilation is better than a fast kill without pain and suffering of someone who resisted arrest, murdered 3 Jedi Masters and tried to kill Mace. Mace chose the pragmatic route since not only was he still dangerous but he would never get a fair trial.[/quote]

And that is why Mace is dead and not Palpatine. If Mace had cut off Palpatine's hands, the Jedi Order wouldn't have been destroyed by Anakin.

And you try again after slicing his hands off.

Mace is to blame here, because he was goaded into breaking the Jedi Code after Anakin was told that he shouldn't do it and then did it himself. It is a matter of hypocrisy. Not the sole motivator, but a factor none the less. That's why Lucas put his turn to here and had it a reflection of what happened to Dooku and what Obi-wan will do to him.

 

I have a take on this which is, I admit, kind of "out there"...

I think the Mace/Sidious/Anakin moment is in some ways a twisted mirror of the Luke/Vader/Sidious moment in ROTJ. Here's what I mean...

When Luke tosses aside his light saber in ROTJ, when Vader is down and Sidious is taunting him, its all about faith. I am not saying that if he retained his light saber, he stood some chance against Sidious, but in throwing it away, he would appear to have NO chance. There's nothing logical about that choice. It's putting everything on the line. He's basically saying "Either I am right about Vader having good in him, that he can be redeemed, or we are all @#$@#$ anyway...I'm all in". And, perversely, by throwing away his one chance to mount even modest resistance, he "wins".

When Mace decides to "execute" Sidious, his choice is logical in a lot of ways. He's probably right that no jail could hold Sidious, could contain his evil influence - if he could even be truly taken into custody. Lowering his light saber there, trying to 'arrest' Sidious, is probably crazy. AND YET...if he did try, I suspect Anakin would not have fallen. I don't know what would have happened - maybe Sidous would have fried Mace anyway, but Anakin would have seen him for what he truly was. Maybe it would have gone any of ten other ways. But I do suspect that this was a key moment of choice, and in choosing the "logical" course, over the "faith-driven" choice, the Force-driven choice, Mace failed the moment and lost Anakin.

I think those two scenes are similar for a reason; I think the Prequel moment is meant to be linked to the ROTJ moment.

PS- I am not a Jedi basher; I don't think the SW movies are, as some seem to assert, the story of how those weird, stuffy, Jedi screwed everything up. Nor am I a Mace-basher... I love the character. I am just saying that I think had Mace chosen not the practical thing but the more "Jedi-like" thing, in that moment, he would have won the larger battle.

 

His point of view is that he needs him. It's not about what's right and wrong, it's about what he wants. So it's not relevant.

He's not helpless in ROTS either. And Anakin knew better before. He knew that he was only looking for his own interests and decided to act on them willingly.

Mace is dead because Anakin betrayed him. It has nothing to do with what should and shouldn't have been done.

Anakin was shouting out false excuses hoping that it would stick:

"He must stand trial."

"It's not the Jedi way."

BS. Because he knew that those arguments don't apply here. Palpatine is in a position where he's judge, jury and executioner. How can he stand a fair trial? It's not the Jedi way to strike an unarmed being. But he wasn't unarmed as we see a few seconds before and after.

Finally, in the climax of the moment, he tells the truth:

"He must live."

"I need him."

That's the real reason.

---

Sure, one can argue that as a Jedi, it's wrong to strike someone begging for his life (even if he's just pretending). But the situation is written so that the Jedi are stuck between a rock and a hard place, just like they are with the Clone Wars itself: damned if you do, damned if you don't. They are forced to compromise.

But again, it's not a reflection because it's not comparable. The hipocrisy is on Anakin's part, not Mace's. It's Anakin who stroke an unarmed man and is now trying to argue that in this scene. But like I said, it's an excuse because Palpatine is not unarmed. If he were, he wouldn't be able to strike (and later kill) Mace.

 

I have to disagree, at least by the time of ROTS. Anakin was very arrogant, and moody. Power alone doesn't make you a Jedi Master. Anakin was aggressive over the years, and still expected the Council to think he was an ideal Jedi.

 

I get the impression Mace Windu/the Jedi Council was potentially going to appoint Anakin a Master after they dealt with Palaptine. But of course, we know what ended up happening.

 

Anakin only became so moody because he could feel the council didn't trust they didn't trust him from day one, everyone was so afraid of him they basically made him turn bad imo. If he had someone to go to and actually give him good advice besides like just let the ones you love die I believe he wouldn't have turned.

 

That's objectively not true.

The Jedi gave him good advice, which he chose not to follow. He fell because he disregard said advice and decided to act on his attachment and fear of loss, instead of letting go of said fear and accept that death is a part of life.

Again, sometimes I wonder what movie some people have watched. It's baffling how people are not only oblivious to the simple messages of this equally simple story, and worse, they manage to blame the good guys who give rightful counsel and excuse characters that make evil decisions made consciously.

 

maybe everything isn't as black and white to some folks just a thought i disagree with you.

 

Nobody said everything is black and white. We're not talking about everything. We're talking about a very particular issue which is (or was) the core and moral compass of the saga. The Jedi were right. Anakin was wrong, knew it and chose to act wrongly out of selfishness.

 

I believe the Jedi were wrong, they treated him lime garbage the only one who ever stuck his neck out for him was Qui-Gon , Obi did the best he could, and if the Jedi didn't have such strict rules like forbidden to love which is a crock of **** imo then maybe Anakin could have helped protecting her, Anakin wasn't evil he wanted to save his loved ones, and I totally understand his murdering of the raiders look what they did to his mother.

 

I didn't feel it was a lack of respect, I thought it was a lack of trust. The Council continuously showed no trust in Anakin, but sent him out to the most dangerous and top secret missions. I understood the Council felt Anakin was a lot stronger than most Masters in many ways, except mental strength and wisdom.

 

How exactly were they wrong? Not pandering to someone's desires doesn't make them wrong. And their advice and philosophy has been proven to be right.

They accepted him into the order and treated him like one of their own. How is that being treated "like garbage"? Again, what movies have you watched? None of the existing ones corroborate your false claims.

Qui-Gon simply presented him to the Jedi and believed him to be the Chosen One.

What?! The Jedi have their rules for a reason, they are selfless. And it was Anakin who wanted to be a Jedi. Nobody was forcing him to be one. If he didn't like the rules and wanted to live a selfish life, he was free to leave. He didn't. He wanted to have his cake and eat it too. That's greed.

No, he wanted to keep his loved ones out of attachment. He wasn't selfless enough to let them go.

Wether you understand or not, it's still wrong and not something that should be supported.

False. The Council did trust Anakin, hence why they gave him missions to begin with. Mace was the one who didn't trust him in ROTS. Anakin was trusted a mission (his first) in AOTC and he didn't comply, instead deciding to act on his fears and attachments.

 

That doesn't automatically grant him the rank of Master. He still displayed emotions unbecoming of a Jedi and he wouldn't be granted the rank because he fulfilled his task.

 

They gave him the exact right advice that Jedi give.

He didn't accept it. No one really argues that the way they said it wasn't the best in normal ways but these aren't normal people but Jedi. He's not some guy off the street. He been a part of their ways for 13 years by that point.

 

Still, he wasn't raised there from infancy. He was born and raised in the real world, not the ivory tower of the Jedi. Thus, the whole "Mourn them not, miss them not" thing is interpreted as "Let them die; don't help them, they're nothing to you." That's how the vast majority of people would interpret such talk. Perhaps if he'd gone to Kenobi rather than Yoda, he'd have gotten the same advice, but phrased in a better, more sympathetic way. Again, poor communication kills.

 

I'd argue that there's nothing wrong with the way it was said, be it for a Jedi or not. That advice was universal. And it's meant to be since the audience is supposed to take it too.

Nobody is raised in anyone's ivory tower.

That's your problem, because there's nothing to support that interpretation. Anakin is talking about visions. And Yoda is telling him to let go of fear and attachment and accept death as a natural part of life, to not act on fear of loss.

Jedi dedicate their lives to help others. To say "Let them die; don't help them, they're nothing to you" is simply an erroneous and baseless interpretation.

The way that was said was not and never was the problem. Anakin didn't want to hear "let go of your fear of loss". He wanted to hear what Palpatine told him. That there's a way to keep those he cared about from dying.

Not from being killed. From dying.

 

Yoda doesn't differentiate between keeping someone from being killed and keeping someone from dying. Yoda goes directly to declaring someone already dead and nonexistent. He advises no action at all, without knowing anything regarding the circumstances. He offers no comfort or sympathy, either. He doesn't even consider the possibility of the vision being incorrect; he at least does that with Luke in TESB, noting that the future is difficult to accurately see,

If Ani or any other Jedi had experienced a vision of the Jedi being massacred, would Yoda have let them all go so quickly, without doing anything to prevent it? Obviously not, since when they sensed a plot against the Jedi, they moved to arrest Palpatine and take control of the Senate to head it off. Yet Ani is told to accept a possible death as absolute fact and move on. It's tough to reconcile such opposite reactions.

 

The point though is the death he sees is non-existent at this point. Just because he sees it doesn't mean it's going to happen. Except he thinks it is but Yoda says to be careful. Trying to stop something that may or may not happen of that nature is too tricky.

The plot against the Jedi is far more mundane a thing and it's not something that came out of nowhere and was not a vision seen by one person and of a personal nature. So a plot against the Jedi is something they've known for a long time but the way it would emerge was the unknown factor.

 

"Careful you must be when sensing the future. The fear of loss is a path to the dark side" is the part that wouldn't be said to an average person. Because, among other things, an average person wouldn't think they have a shot at obtaining an unnatural power of stopping a death they see in a premonition.

Neither an average person nor a life-long Jedi follows that up by saying "I won't let these visions come true."
Someone who is both does.
Anakin is that special case. He has extraordinary powers along with the attachments & fears of ordinary people.

All in all though, Yoda's advice is sound, even in Anakin's case. Gathering that these premonitions are springing from attachments (someone close), Yoda advises to be careful when sensing the future, because the fear of losing that attachment can lead to greed and thus bad decisions. Yoda's comfort is in reminding Anakin of the natural order of things and that there is more beyond this world that those who pass transform into.

Whether Yoda knew it or not, he was spot on here and told Anakin exactly what he needed to hear in order to stop Padmé from dying. It's not about whether the visions are correct or incorrect, it's about the root of the vision, Anakin's fear. But instead of conquering his fears, he instead sought a means with which to stop them from coming true. Which in the end made them come true.
Anakin wants practical answers, but that is not what this scenario calls for.

To echo QRB, Anakin's visions, let alone what little details he gives Yoda, were not enough to warrant a plan of action, other than what Yoda does give, Be careful. Let go of fear. The Jedi were not having dreams of a plot to destroy the order out of attachments and fear of loss, Mace finally sensed it because it was so imminent; Sidious revealing himself to Anakin set the wheels in motion for his end game. They finally took action when they learned exactly who the Sith Lord threat was.

I'm not sure who else he could've gone to that would've given him advice he thought was good. He really had two options; conquer his fears or try to learn to unnaturally keep others from dying which is not the Jedi way. But, the last time he had a similar vision it came true, so his emotions and rationality are being hijacked. Just like they were when his mother died.
Even Padme couldn't console him by assuring him that she wouldn't die.

The Jedi were free to love others. Forming attachments that they were unwilling to let go of was forbidden.

The only thing both she and Anakin needed protection from in the end was Anakin himself. (And Sidious of course, but they didn't know that until it was too late).

Yes, and that is his noble virtue. Unfortunately it was this very virtue that Sidious used to twist Anakin into an agent of evil.


And Yoda also advised Luke that it was better to sacrifice his friends if he honored what they fought for than to risk losing it all. And like Anakin, he chose to try saving his loved ones.

 

Not my point. Yoda is addressing Anakin's fear of losing a loved one and deciding to act to prevent something that may or may not happen out of fear, as opposed to letting go of that fear.

No, he goes directly to point out the fact that death is a natural part of life, and one needs to accept that fact instead of living and acting in fear of losing someone.

That's precisely why he advises no action other than to let go. Because it's a vision of a possibility that may or may not happen of which Anakin knows nothing of.

?! How exactly was he not sympathetic? How is advising someone to accepting death as part of life not comforting?

It doesn't matter if it's correct or incorrect, Anakin should let go of his fear. The very notion of a vision of the future is that is not set in stone. So no, he did consider. It's implied.

He wouldn't act on fear of whatever he saw in a vision, no.

No, they moved to arrest Palpatine once the one assigned to spy on him confirmed that he was the Sith Lord they had been looking for.

 

There's a world of difference. When a Jedi acts to stop a person from being shot, it is in the line of duty and done correctly. Without emotion and in full control of themselves. What Anakin wanted to do was the opposite of that. He specifically said that he wanted to stop people from dying, by becoming the most powerful Jedi ever. That he wanted to use the Force in this way and that is unnatural. He was talking about defying nature and speaking from a place of deep, negative emotion.

 

Well, first, the Jedi were already on their way to for Palpatine to resign and take control of the Senate before Ani showed up. And all he said was that he thinks Palpatine is a Sith Lord. Suddenly, Mace trusts Ani's word absolutely, without any question? It's just as likely Mace figured this would give them cover when they basically overthrew the legal government of the Republic. Sorry, but that's an act of fear by the Jedi, since they didn't stop to consider just how the people of the Republic would react, and whether this was, in fact, what Palpatine was planning on.

And I find it interesting that the only two options Ani is offered by those he respects are 1) let go, do nothing, and, if she dies, get on with your life and forget her, or 2) turn to the Dark Side and save her, at the cost of your friends and allies. It seems that nobody is even suggesting preparing for the worst, but taking responsible action (security to protect her, doctors to treat her). And you can't say Ani would've turned it down because we never saw anyone even suggest it. How do we know that, if someone had kindly and sympathetically suggested it, he'd have gone along with it? His turn to the Dark Side was just as much an open question as Pame's death, at that point.

And I still can't accept "Mourn them not, miss them not" as sympathetic or kind. "Sesame Street" had it right: it's OK to cry and feel sad, and to miss someone who's gone. You have to go on, but you don't have to cut those who've passed on out of your heart and mind.

 

"If what you told me is true, you will have gained my trust."

The issue is pretty simple: people die and Anakin feared that loss. The only solution is to let go of that fear and accept death as part of life (which it is). He didn't accept this basic fact, and in his fear and greed decided to act against that reality.

That's exactly what Yoda did: accept death as part of life. Let go of fear.

Padmé already had doctors and security. Those were never in question.

If you don't cherry pick and read the full quote, you'll see there's no lack of sympathy and is the apropriate response to Anakin's defying reply of "I won't let these visions come true, Master Yoda.":

"Death is a natural part of life. Rejoice for those around you who transform into the Force. Mourn them do not. Miss them do not. Attachment leads to jealousy. The shadow of greed that is."

Yoda was right on the money.